Best Axeman?

[thelibra]

I used to hate on the Dog Soldiers, but nowadays, playing the harder levels, I consider them on par with Vultures. The fact that they can be built without a source of copper (happens way too often to me in the early game), the fact that they are effectively an 8 strength vs. melee (plus whatever other bonuses) means they stack VERY nicely if making a balanced SoD. They do an insanely great job of taking out spearmen and axemen. If stacked with some chariots or other anti-archer units, they can even overcome the hilltop bonuses that would keep a city otherwise invulnerable till cats. For early rushing, I gotta give the best props to Dogs. Granted, they are pretty specific in their attack target, but when used as a compliment to other units, they do the job better than any other.

 

[*Svart*]

IIRC, all modifiers are applied to the defending unit (except Combat promos, but that's not a factor here). Both side's modifiers are first totaled up, and then the difference is found. The difference is then applied to the defender.

So an Axeman with 5 and +50% vs. melee against a Vulture with 6 and +25% vs. melee would be calculated this way (assuming the Vulture is defending):

50% - 25% = 25%

So it becomes:
Axe: 5, +25%
Vulture: 6

Then the Axe's +25% is subtracted from the Vulture (since it's the defender), so the Vulture's strength becomes 4.5. Axeman wins.

If the Axe is defending, then instead of -25% for the Vulture, it's +25% for the Axe, which would give it 6.25 strength. Axeman still wins.

TNX!! that's a nice explanation I feel so noob

 

[thelibra]

Wow, I just learned a lot, thanks Absolute Zero.... So a Dog vs. an Axe

Dog (4, 100% vs melee) attacks Axe (5, 50% vs. melee)
= Dog 4 vs Axe 2.5?

That explains a lot, really. Even more horrifying vs. Swordsmen and Spearmen.
Dog (4, 100% vs. melee) attacks Sword (6, no bonus)
= Dog 4 vs. Sword...0????
= Dog 4 vs. Spear....0????

Holy crap... that can't be right, can it?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

This article has all the right info:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php

 

[Sian]

thats because it aren't thelibra ...

as far as i remember its going that way that its going to be is that the end result have to get added the x% to be the starting result ... wierd way around i know ... but thats how it goes

 

[ParadigmShifter]

huh?????

Anyway, read the link I posted.

 

[Absolute Zero]

That explains a lot, really. Even more horrifying vs. Swordsmen and Spearmen.
Dog (4, 100% vs. melee) attacks Sword (6, no bonus)
= Dog 4 vs. Sword...0????
= Dog 4 vs. Spear....0????

Holy crap... that can't be right, can it?

It's different when the bonus is 100%...I don't think that's covered in the article posted, but it's calculated differently.

 

[Iranon]

If the attacker's (non-Combat) bonuses outweigh the defenders, the defender's strength is divided by (1+difference%). So in the case of Dogs attacking Axes:

4+100% vs 5+50% becomes 4 vs 5/(1+50%) so it's 4 vs. 3.33

 

[Ghpstage]

It's different when the bonus is 100%...I don't think that's covered in the article posted, but it's calculated differently.

The math you posted only holds true if the total bonus on the defenders is 0% or more.
If it goes negative theres a different method that is shown in the article

If the overall value is positive, add that percentage to the defender to get its modified strength. If the overall value is negative, the defender’s modified strength is found by taking the original defender’s strength divided by (1-overall_value). [Note: That’s the same as dividing by (1+abs(overall_value)) when overall_value is negative, which is how I think of it.]

For the Dog Soldier attacking Sword example this means that the Sword gets 6/(1+1.00) = 3.
For the earlier Vulture defending against Axeman the true Vultures strength will be 6/(1+0.25) so 4.8 rather than 4.5.

 

[Pendle Witch]

Lizzie borden

 

[Framesticker]

Of all 3, Vultures are IMO the best rush unit. Given some sort of natural defense (river, forest, hill) they hold off extremely well against Chariots, and are monstrous Archer killers (IF you can there early enough). Dog Soldiers can be good as rush units, but excel at fogbusting, while Phalanxes are simply invulnerable Axemen in defense. Personally I like Vultures the best (very early BW, use Creative to get Copper ASAP and massacre nearby civs), but all are potentially game-changing in the early game.

 

[Farm Boy]

Vulture, by a mile.

Practical cost-efficient general purpose unit, with decent rush potential. Not quite in the same league as War Chariots or Praetorians in terms of sheer power, but not for behind.

Phalanxes are rather limited. Their ability is unlikely to save me a lot of hammers because a) Spears are still better at the job and b) they're fairly hard counters, so you don't need many anyway.
They're also somewhat misplaced and would be more useful in a civ that doesn't start with Hunting: Here they'd enable us to keep building cheap garrison warriors alongside axemen without opening ourselves up to a devastating chariot attack.

Dog Soldiers are the one UU I'd trade in for the vanilla version more often than not. They are also somewhat misplaced - having another servicable resourceless unit available would be of more value to leaders who didn't blow a trait and a UB on better archers. Ironically they cause more resource problems than they solve, because Native America requires iron rather than copper or iron for a good generalist/can opener.

^^ This one.

 

[Jolly Rogerer]

No Ted Nugent option for best axeman? The poll is flawed.

 

[PreLynMax]

I prefer the Vulture, too, for its base strength. It's a great rush unit. It's only problem is if the AI has researched animal husbandry, has horses when you get there, and has built Chariots. I generally only find archers.

Alexander's Phalanxes are quite good, also. You don't need to add spears if you run into chariots. Both are better than stock.

Dog Soldiers. No thanks. They're resourceless and marginally better against melee, but worse against everything else. For a rush I'd rather have a standard axeman.

The truth cannot be spoken any clearer than this.
I use spears only to support my axes.
Dog Soldiers? I wouldn't say they are useless, but... no. Just no. At least they don't need copper or iron to build these... but still... only 4? Whats up with that?!?

 

[awesome]

before promotions and fortifying, dog soldiers are the best when the axemen are fighting against each other. vultures are the best when fighting against archers, which you'll usually be fighting against when you're attacking cities. so in practical use, vultures.
native americans probably should've had an archer unit.

 

[dzdydx]

Dog soldiers are better when used defensively, ie Shaka/Toku/Monty is coming with hordes of Combat/CR axes and pillaging you with spears/Impis, if you're not AGG best case scenario you get 50% odds against his axes, which isn't very good. You can build chariots but spears/impis will rape them if you leave them in the field. With the dog soldier, you get much better odds against these enemies.

 

[jjkrause84]

I can't stand Dog soldiers.....worst unit in the entire game as far as I'm concerned.