Best medieval war?

[Paxel]

Hello,
suppose that you have no horses nor elephants, and you are boxed in 3-4-5 cities, what medieval war do you recommend at immortal level?

1) Catapults + swords/axes?
2) Trebs + other ?
3) Still try to win Lib and/or reach gunpowder?

I usually choose (3) if I have 6-7 cities, but what if you are very boxed?

 

[Izuul]

Probably catapults + whatever else you can build.

 

[bhavv]

If you have a non fishing civ, Engineering bulb is probably the only option without strategic resources.

Though if you were boxed in that early, you should have already tried rushing with classical units. Unless you didnt have copper or iron as well in which case you should just start a new game.

 

[rfcfanatic]

(3) is more like for renaissance war than medieval. For medieval, (2) would be the best option I think. (1) will not work, because Longbows eat Catapults for breakfast, even on much lower levels like Prince or Monarch.

 

[Izuul]

#1 does work. The idea is to start attacking before the AI gets longbows which is routinely possible on every level except deity (and sometimes even there), and cats can even take out longbows, albeit with pretty heavy losses. It's obviously more challenging if you have no resources at all, but i believe the assumption here was that some form of metal was available.

Engineering bulb is good too, but some civs can't do it at all, and only a few are really good at it (philo + no fishing).

 

[Kallikrates]

(3) is more like for renaissance war than medieval. For medieval, (2) would be the best option I think. (1) will not work, because Longbows eat Catapults for breakfast, even on much lower levels like Prince or Monarch.

Units are equally strong on every level, aren't they? Only the AI will have more lbs (and far earlier) on higher levels.
I don't remember a game where I had neither copper, iron, horses reasonably close (say among the first 2-3 cities), usually I have horses and at least one metal. Ivory is a bonus, very much map-dependent in my experience. But if not for a pre-siege rush, it is usually enough for cats + some decent ancient/classical unit.

 

[bhavv]

Engineering bulb is good too, but some civs can't do it at all, and only a few are really good at it (philo + no fishing).

Its very easy without Philo, you only need 2 Great Scientists and I normally do it all the time with any Protective Civ that doesnt have fishing.

 

[Kallikrates]

Its very easy without Philo, you only need 2 Great Scientists and I normally do it all the time with any Protective Civ that doesnt have fishing.

which techs have to be avoided to bulb engineering? Or is there an alternative to bulb it with a great engineer?

 

[Izuul]

Its very easy without Philo, you only need 2 Great Scientists and I normally do it all the time with any Protective Civ that doesnt have fishing.

I didn't mean to imply that it is difficult without a Philo leader.

which techs have to be avoided to bulb engineering? Or is there an alternative to bulb it with a great engineer?

Primarily just Fishing. With fishing your GS will bulb Sailing > Compass > Calendar instead of Machinery.

There isn't really a good alternative with GEs, but it is possible. You have to get early MC, which is expensive, build a couple of forges (also expensive), and then it still takes twice as long to get GEs as it does GSs since you can only run 1. It's probably only realistic to do that with a Philo leader. I don't believe a GE can bulb all of Engineering either. I think it's more like 85-90% of the tech.

 

[Strickl3r]

GE doesn't even bulb full machinery. GS doesn't bulb full engineering, but close.
With a GE i think you bulb ~1k beakers and Engineering has ~1,6k.

I would only use the GE for machinery bulb+attack with xbows. If selfteching MC+Machinery+Construction is viable with a fishing guy, it's probably better to boost the research with an academy and just selftech Engineering aswell instead of getting a GE to bulb.

I had some games where i ran 2 scientist + GE and got one by chance as 2nd GP though.

But on Immortal i think it is better to just attack with xbows and no siege, if you are boxed in and you can get early MC+GE with a fishing guy.

 

[Izuul]

Yeah, it was the GS that i was thinking of that bulbs ~90% of Eng. I haven't done much GE bulbing aside from Machinery with SB.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Catapults are a Classical war, Trebs are a Medieval, and Lib is Renaissance break out.

 

[Mantic0re]

Trebs have a longer period where they are effective and if you can get them before everyone has walls, etc,. they play almost as smoothly as cannon. When really boxed in Early wars seem to be better but losses on Catapults can quickly become prohibitive with only a few cities able to produce units.

 

[MesSer]

I usually opt for #2 or #3

My issue with #1 is that it always feels wrong to produce units during that time, it just doesn't fit my game. During that time frame I usually want to setup my economy, trade techs and control the game. Starting a war during that time just feels like a bad option. Even if warring and you won it easily, I'm not completely sure that you actually are in an awesome position since you usually don't have the economy to support the distance and whatnot...

 

[Kallikrates]

Depends on the level and the situation; there is often something one could do instead of fighting a war. But "boxed in" implies for me very close neighbors, so distance shouldn't be such a problem.. Even without being a great player it is possible to set up a decently runnning empire of 5-6 cities by 1000-500 BC and then start the war with cats and supporting units. Of course, if one is unlucky the AI will have longbows in the late BCs, but on Monarch/Emperor they may not appear so early. And if the opponent gets lbs during the war, enough cats and veteran swordsmen can deal with them. With praetorians or elephants certainly.