Best Virtues / Trees & discussion on +20% affinity from techs

[sprang]

Ye, u tell how stay healthy with prosperity. But u miss, that no real point to stay healthy until endgame.

Staying healthy is worth +10% production, science, and culture. Those are pretty good benefits. Which Industry benefits are you claiming are worth more than that, to say nothing of the non-Health bonuses, like worker speed, border expansion, +1p Basic Resources, and +3e per TR or +2e per specialist?

I mean, +25% buildings is good, but many of the main-line industry virtues are just "get more energy", which is pretty weak, and certainly not better than the Prosperity energy virtues.

 

[AlaskA]

Staying healthy is worth +10% production, science, and culture. Those are pretty good benefits.

10% of base production, science, culture. When the base numbers still under 10, it's just a 1 yeld bonus. Who cares this numbers, when u have 20 bakers per 1 TR?

Maybe, i can agree health matters only if in next patch health start affect TR bonuses, or they change smth, but right now in this version health just a joke, sry.

 

[Roxlimn]

ETA: the Knowledge I synergy is far more powerful. +10% culture per city offsets the -10% culture penalty from Unhealthiness. Because of rounding, that 10% can actually be 25-30% of your total culture in the early game, and the Knowledge I synergy is the only way to get it back while still growing your colony. This is the real reason to take the other mediocre early Knowledge virtues.

I was going to point that out, but I'm glad you said it first.

Each Virtue in CivBE is worth not only its basic power, but also a fraction of the associated Synergy benefit. Thus, a 10% discount in CivBE cannot be weighed the same as a 10% discount in Civ5, because that point has a worth beyond the discount that it's giving. Such a Virtue essentially reads "Acquire Virtue Synergies faster," both on account of discounting future Virtues, and by dint of itself counting as a point for Synergies.

The crucial point is the difference between the Synergy mechanics in CivBE (which is universal and multidirectional) vs. the Completion benefit in Civ5 (which is a one-time benefit). A Piety Policy only ever counts towards Piety Completion. A Knowledge Virtue counts for both Knowledge Synergies and Tier Synergies; and both can have implications game-long.

 

[Xenotitan]

Staying healthy is worth +10% production, science, and culture. Those are pretty good benefits. Which Industry benefits are you claiming are worth more than that, to say nothing of the non-Health bonuses, like worker speed, border expansion, +1p Basic Resources, and +3e per TR or +2e per specialist?

Industry actually has some pretty decent health benefits. Nothing quite as good as Eudamia (sp?), but it isn't difficult to become healthy reasonably quickly after your first burst of expansion. Profiteering quickly becomes about 1.5 health per city. Magnasanti is hard to calculate exactly but I often see my health jump about 15 when I first pick it up, and of course it becomes more powerful with time.

I was going to point that out, but I'm glad you said it first.

Each Virtue in CivBE is worth not only its basic power, but also a fraction of the associated Synergy benefit. Thus, a 10% discount in CivBE cannot be weighed the same as a 10% discount in Civ5, because that point has a worth beyond the discount that it's giving. Such a Virtue essentially reads "Acquire Virtue Synergies faster," both on account of discounting future Virtues, and by dint of itself counting as a point for Synergies.

The crucial point is the difference between the Synergy mechanics in CivBE (which is universal and multidirectional) vs. the Completion benefit in Civ5 (which is a one-time benefit). A Piety Policy only ever counts towards Piety Completion. A Knowledge Virtue counts for both Knowledge Synergies and Tier Synergies; and both can have implications game-long.

I think, for the most part, the synergies are approximately equal in power to virtues. So I'm going to approximate the benefit of acquiring a synergy as the benefit of acquiring a virtue. When you take the -10% virtue cost you are giving up an immediate virtue to get all other virtues 10% faster, synergy virtues included. It still takes time for it to break even virtue wise after you spend the virtue. Of course taking the -10% culture cost virtue is progress towards a synergy, but taking any other virtue is also progress towards a synergy so we can drop that out of our comparison. Still, taking the synergy progress into account, which I initially forgot to do, does make this virtue look better. The faster you get virtues, including synergies, the faster this breaks even and pulls ahead.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

The -10 culture cost is also on the path to better virtues which you can't get without it. It may be the dullest virtues in the whole game, if not the history of civ, but avoiding to will block better things.

 

[Roxlimn]

The contrast to Civ5's pre-BNW Piety is this: Getting the Civ5 Piety benefits didn't speed you up immediately because the policy itself doesn't have immediate return, and you're down one Policy in terms of overall benefits.

In CivBE, the Virtue essentially reads "Acquire Synergies 10% faster." This benefit is immediately in effect as soon as the Virtue is chosen, because choosing the Virtue doesn't mean that you sacrifice anything towards Synergy Acquisition. As far as Synergies are concerned, -10% Virtue cost and +1 Energy per Basic Resource are the same. You could almost view the Virtue acquisition benefit as a side benefit. In contrast, the same as a policy would take the space of a policy, and therefore sacrifices benefits now for benefits later (of questionable value).

 

[DarkestOnion]

In my experience the most powerful Virtue Tree is Industry. Consider the following Virtue Path...

Labor Logistics
Central Planning
Commoditization
Investment
Alternative Markets

If you save up energy (buy nothing) until 10,000 energy is in your bank and then focus on trading with every station in reach, this path will net you 500+ energy per turn in the mid game. With a robust energy economy you will be able to buy whatever building or units you need.

It is also viable to start in Prosperity before heading down the 'Energy Ramp' above like so...

Frugality
Homesteading
Colony Initiative (make sure you do not produce a free colonist before the quest though)

The idea here is faster outpost growth and also denying the AI any decent city sites as you rapidly expand.

 

[gamemaster3000]

Bumping for some edits to the OP about Prosperity. I tried a colonist start and it did do really well. I think it matters a ton on how much space you have to expand, in this last game I had lots of room and I think going down industry faster would have really been a better choice. I'll see what happens on Apollo, though, it was definitely a good enough start to crush them on Soyuz (2nd hardest).

 

[PharAway]

I used to always default to prosperity but it seems now I'm mixing industry/prosperity. Some of the benefits coincide with eachother and can be additive to eachother. Although I do want to do a playthrough with just might..

 

[Gokudo01]

I used to always default to prosperity but it seems now I'm mixing industry/prosperity. Some of the benefits coincide with eachother and can be additive to eachother. Although I do want to do a playthrough with just might..

Might can be extremly good early ( if you are able to get lots of science from aliens and nest) and late +50% SR allows you to build more hypercore, Mantle, skycrane or these ubber affinity units but misses something midgame.

Overall Might has got too many conditional virtues.

 

[heat]

Given some slight variations dependent upon game situations and circumstances, in most cases, these are what I concentrate upon (in game order and priority) in every CivBE game I have played (and if done, are game changing):

1st - Prosperity:
All five in the beginning tier
Then...
Pathfinders
Gift Economy
Mind Over Matter
Nature's Bounty
Hands Never Idle
Eudaimonia

2nd - Knowledge
Foresight
Social Mores
Laboratory Apprenticeship
Cohesive Values
Networked Datalinks
Memeweb

3rd - Might
Do the first three in the first tier: Adaptive Tactics, Survivalism, Military Industrial Complex - then shift to Industry

4th - Industry
Do all of Tier 1 and Tier 2 alternating in Might when needed.

 

[Xenotitan]

You take all 5 in tier I prosperity, then take several more policies in prosperity before a tier I in a different tree? After 5 in tier I prosperity you should take a 6th tier I in whatever tree you please, this gives you a free virtue through the width I synergy so it doesn't delay your progress down prosperity at all.

 

[Tarukito]

Sorry heat. But until internal trade route nerf(if it gets nerfed), not going interdependent networks early game is a self inflicted wound, if we played mp you would get crushed by the production power of 3pro/5ind. The time you are at mind over matter, I have autoplants done and am researching affinity units. This without artists. Enjoy your population and growth bonuses ill enjoy 1/4 less hammers on my annex city buildings, overall 10% another 10% on buildings, which easily outweighs the extra unhealthy producing population, then add on the Trade route bonus.

I would recommend you give it a try and compare notes yourself on time required to reach milestones of affinity units. May swing your game plan drastically. The power increase is pretty sweet.

 

[Xenotitan]

Sorry heat. But I'm an uber leet player and so much better than you. If we were playing mp I'd totally omgwtfbbq pwn you with my skillz.

 

[heat]

You take all 5 in tier I prosperity, then take several more policies in prosperity before a tier I in a different tree? After 5 in tier I prosperity you should take a 6th tier I in whatever tree you please, this gives you a free virtue through the width I synergy so it doesn't delay your progress down prosperity at all.

Not necessarily do I take all 5, I simply put it down in case there were some who would argue taking all of them, my bad, I suppose. Anyhow, I do largely play solo given I am not an uber leet player in the mp environment. I merely made a suggestive post that gives a solid foundation, but no doubt, can be changed or tweaked to fit anyone's other choices and playstyle. My mention was purely suggestive and what has worked for me in, but yeah, not in an mp environment given I do not play it.

 

[Xenotitan]

I think most people here don't play mp. There's disconnect issues, and also it is difficult to find time for everyone to play it together given the length of these games.

 

[silvertuerk]

A MP game is excellent opportunity to learn, especially (A) 1 vs 1 humans or (B) 2 humans vs two AI on Apollo difficulty. Then you can discuss your progress about Prosperity 3 / Industry versus alternative et cetera.

uber leet

 

[Roxlimn]

A 2 player game could be a good crucible for comparison, but it's not particularly directly applicable to a SP game. Of course, 2 players playing asymmetrically and cooperatively should coordinate, not simply build two entirely separate factions.

For instance, an Industry player would have great internal routes, but poor health. A Prosperity player would have great Health, but poor routes. Logic dictates that the Prosperity player focus on growth and maintaining himself above critical Health levels while his cities are uber-boosted from +25% Internal Routes coming from the Industry player. Offhand, I would pick KP for the Industry player as they would be building more Colonists to generate more Routes, while Polystralia or PAU for the Prosperity player, to have more routes on fewer cities (external, natch), or more growth on positive Health.

 

[Tarukito]

I think most people here don't play mp. There's disconnect issues, and also it is difficult to find time for everyone to play it together given the length of these games.

I just figured the only reason to be discussing strategy is to increase chances of winning in future MP games. Strategy needed to beat the AI: pick an affinity to focus techs, build stuff, win.

But then I dunno, I didn't intend to be mean or degrading. Sorry about that.

I have taken this initial release as a Beta to practice strategies for MP. As I see that as being the only real chance of playing BE while making games not always a win. I can't wait to get in some tough/challenging(aka fun) games against an opponent who knows how to use an army and knows how to challenge a Gate/Mindflower victory.

So I refrain from trading with AI, why exploit bugs which will never be available in MP. I try to focus on builds that have some viability when faced with real threats of losing cities or the game if I am not prepared to do battle.

This is where I see the great usage of internal trade routes. Not having to depend on external routes if war is declared and every Trade vessel is gobbled up by a few cruisers camping your old trade partners sea borders. Thinking about how many tacnet hubs I'll have to have in order to protect my orbital coverage from phasal transporters. Seeing how important some defense buildings are when confronted with a Rover/Ranger rush.

Taking all of that into account, really just going to have to wait for the multiplayer bug fixes to start fleshing out my tactics, but until then virtue and tech paths playtesting still gives good "can expect X by turn X" notes that I will use to further refine my strategies in future games.

For instance, an Industry player would have great internal routes, but poor health. A Prosperity player would have great Health, but poor routes. Logic dictates that the Prosperity player focus on growth and maintaining himself above critical Health levels while his cities are uber-boosted from +25% Internal Routes coming from the Industry player. Offhand, I would pick KP for the Industry player as they would be building more Colonists to generate more Routes, while Polystralia or PAU for the Prosperity player, to have more routes on fewer cities (external, natch), or more growth on positive Health.

Do internal trade routes count as internal when going to an ally? If so this does make for some very interesting games and team play strategies.

 

[Xenotitan]

Routes between allies count as internal.