Beta 11

[Opera]

Supposed to be Mecca. Mecca isn't on the map. Makes sense to me.

It *is* possible to still put the shrine somewhere though, maybe in Damascus.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Exactly what is the Arabian UP right now?
Islam spreads to all conquered/founded/flipped cities, and you get a free Islamic Mosque too??
Is this intended?

The text of the UP says only this: "State Religion spreads to every city with a Temple."

 

[3Miro]

I disagree. Would be strange to have Islam without a holy city

That happens only if you don't found a city.

The Arabian UP is the only UP in UniquePowers.py.

When Arabia gets a city (settle or conquest or flip or trade), then the state religion (whatever the state religion is) automatically spreads to the city and a temple of that religion is build.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yes, but this means that it will also happen if we set Islam as a predefined state religion to Arabia.

Will update the Arabian UP's text to be more clear. It was pretty confusing - at least for me

 

[Opera]

I always felt the Arabian UP was confusing. It sounds like it spreads state rel in all cities that already have a temple...

As long as the Arabs start with Islam as their state religion, they won't get the holy city, whether by founding a city or by flipping one. At least according to my tests.

 

[3Miro]

Wording of the Arabian UP can be fixed. The UP spreads both the state religion and builds a free temple.

I also resolved the Islamic religion thing. Religion is now founded as soon as a city is founded, no need to wait for the end of turn. Also, Arabia starts with Islam as a State Religion.

 

[Opera]

Awesome

 

[AbsintheRed]

I also resolved the Islamic religion thing. Religion is now founded as soon as a city is founded, no need to wait for the end of turn. Also, Arabia starts with Islam as a State Religion.

Great!
Note that you still have to find your capital in your first turn. Otherwise no Holy City and Shrine.
If I understand it correctly, conquering your first city also won't work

 

[rock_star]

Could the Islam Holy Shrine cost one hammer to build? There's no way the AI would fail to build it then. The human player might do something crazy like try to conquer Bizantiya and build it there, but convincing the AI to build the shrine and adhere to their favoured religion shouldn't be too difficult to do, even if it means getting creative to make it happen.

 

[3Miro]

Could the Islam Holy Shrine cost one hammer to build? There's no way the AI would fail to build it then. The human player might do something crazy like try to conquer Bizantiya and build it there, but convincing the AI to build the shrine and adhere to their favoured religion shouldn't be too difficult to do, even if it means getting creative to make it happen.

What do you mean by 1 hammer. In BtS the shrines can only be build by a Great Prophet. In RFCE the shrines are either pre-build or get build automatically in the holy city for the religion.

 

[civ_king]

I just got an interesting start as the Ottomans, Arabs apparently bit the curb because Byzantines control to Damascus and Tyre (Tyre is Islam's holy city). Az Zarqa is independent, Jerusalem, Al Aqaba, and Gaza are French (not surprising), Alexandria to Ptolemais are Byzantine rest of Africa is Indie. England (Britain?) was good at covering every square centimetre with only two workable tiles unworkable in Great Britain and two in Ireland. Byzantines have Rhodai (never seen that before). COrdoba is dead and Spain is slowly growing. Burgundians are continuously genius with Marseilles and Toulon also Dijon and Nevers (2W).

 

[Veshta]

I also resolved the Islamic religion thing. Religion is now founded as soon as a city is founded, no need to wait for the end of turn. Also, Arabia starts with Islam as a State Religion.

Rather elegant solution actually that should do the trick, he lost the ability to sack Sur on turn 1 with last changes as I recall so will at least start out muslim .. but the AI being AI who knows he may decide differently sometime later (after respawns).

 

[AbsintheRed]

Indeed, the map is rearranged, so now it's not possible to conquer a city with Arabia in your first turn.
Also, if you don't find your city in the first turn, you won't get a holy city and a shrine

 

[ezzlar]

When I play Byzantines I road the arabs starting position, kill everything except one horse archer on spawn and then the AI always capture Sour on the first turn. Will they still get the shrine? (They dont found Dimashq).

 

[AbsintheRed]

When I play Byzantines I road the arabs starting position, kill everything except one horse archer on spawn and then the AI always capture Sour on the first turn. Will they still get the shrine? (They dont found Dimashq).

No, they won't
Right now they have to found the city (and in the first turn)

 

[rock_star]

What do you mean by 1 hammer. In BtS the shrines can only be build by a Great Prophet. In RFCE the shrines are either pre-build or get build automatically in the holy city for the religion.

I realize that - I was suggesting adding the option of construction through hammers (in addition to city founding/Great Prophet use). My knowledge of coding is extremely limited, so I'm not sure how difficult it would be to code, but if the cost for buidling the Road to the Masjid al-Haram was one hammer, but required Islam in the city and Islam as state religion (to prevent Indies/Byz from building it as Islam spreads), then the holy shrine will surely be built on the first turn Arabia holds a city, even if that doesn't happen to be on their first turn. (I suppose theoretically a strong and knowledgeable Byz player could steamroll Arabia, and conquer them without allowing them to hold a city for even one turn to build the shrine, causing Cordoba to build it and unbalancing Western Europe when Al-Andalus gets a free +20 per turn.)

A similar thing happens with Protestantism - it's automatically founded when the Dutch spawn if no one has researched Printing Press yet. The Dutch spawn stack is anemic and can easily be ganked without issue, causing Protestantism to spread without a holy city. I don't think it's nearly as troubling as lack of an Islamic holy shrine, but it is present.

 

[civ_king]

Does Protestantism even need a holy city? Rome is very important to Catholics, Damascus the Muslims, Constantinople the Orthodox and Jerusalem the Jews, but is any city really important to Protestants?

It's fine if a game winds up with no Protestant holy city

 

[3Miro]

Maybe the Kingdom of Sicily is appropriate for this list.

A question on this: Is it possible to have let these civs have a UU? Or would it be to much to code?

I am a bit hesitant to make add too many island civs. The issue is that the AI is incapable of launching an overseas invasion, so the island civs would just be there unchallenged.

As for the second question, the minor civs are just Independent, they have no UU.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm a little unsure about the way you implemented this:

First: This is rather national revolt mechanics right now, not minor civs.
If we want minor civs then they should be really minor nations then: give them at least own civ entry with name, color, flag, maybe even UU if appropriate.
Still unplayable, limited tech tree and no expansion, but an own identity, not just the usual independents...

Second: Isn't unstable stability for these provinces already represents this?
Because I don't really get it this way. These smaller civs will revolt against you, but if you conquer another normal, playable nation's territories, there will be nothing similar?
Why would say the Serbian territories be worse for Bulgaria than the Hungarian ones?
Bohemian territories worse for Poland than German ones?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this at all. It's a really good idea, and will add to gameplay if we implement it well.
But it's important that we make this national revolt mechanics handled everywhere in the same manner

 

[3Miro]

I'm a little unsure about the way you implemented this:

First: This is rather national revolt mechanics right now, not minor civs.
If we want minor civs then they should be really minor nations then: give them at least own civ entry with name, color, flag, maybe even UU if appropriate.
Still unplayable, limited tech tree and no expansion, but an own identity, not just the usual independents...

All of those nations are currently represented as Independents and Barbarians. It is highly impractical to make separate players (as AI and all of that) for every small nation.

Second: Isn't unstable stability for these provinces already represents this?
Because I don't really get it this way. These smaller civs will revolt against you, but if you conquer another normal, playable nation's territories, there will be nothing similar?
Why would say the Serbian territories be worse for Bulgaria than the Hungarian ones?
Bohemian territories worse for Poland than German ones?

The purpose of the minor nations is to better represent things like the Scottish and Serbian revolts, those played important roles in history, but they are currently represented by small Barbarian invasions.

Major nations do revolt too. There are random respawns that depend on stability, number of players currently alive and major revolts also cover many cities in larger territories. There are also scripted revolts at historically appropriate times.

Giving them more identity is a good idea. We should probably make it so that units build by the Indies in specific provinces would get a name like "Serbian (Axeman)" or "Bohemian (Archer)".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this at all. It's a really good idea, and will add to gameplay if we implement it well.
But it's important that we make this national revolt mechanics handled everywhere in the same manner

Minor nation revolts work pretty much the same way, except cities become Independent as opposed to their own separate player.