Beta Units Resources and Buildings

[Kailric]

Also that 'area' option is going to be very cool for WH, as we can add the 'continent specific resource bonuses' or CONSREB (What?!) to only appear on their speicific continent. AMERICA, EUROPE, AFRICA, ASIA.

Perhaps ConSpReB sounds best Yeah, there are a bunch of xml values that are not used in vanilla and a bunch I don't understand what they do. Today it took me a while to debug an issue of Boar Bonuses not appearing. I didn't realize exactly how TerrainBooleans and FeatureBooleans worked. It checks for either a TerrainBooleans or a FeatureBoolean.Then if you are using a FeatureBooleans you have to assign the FeatureTerrainBooleans or your Bonus will not show.

What about Migrations? A Bonus could Migrate to another spot. This could be advantages or not depending on if they Migrate closer or further away. It would be neat for WH mod if you are a Nomad band of people following a Heard of Bison You would up your Village and Plant it down next to the Bonus again. Some early buildings once built then could be free the next time you have to move the village.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

it could be interesting, but more likely be really annoying, for what (I think) would amount to a fairly short period of gameplay, especially when we already have the 'hunting' system.

I think a better thing would be that you don't get animal bonuses appearing till you research domestication (or some such tech) so that in the beginning your hunters are following the herds to bring the meat back to camp. but then later you can found near and coral them, hunt them, game them, stronghold them, etc.

The up and moving towns does sound interesting though, if for example you reveal a bonus and you are 1 tile away from it you can move camp in the early game to take advantage of the better location.

Then once you build your first 'building' as opposed to a rock, cave or tent. your camp becomes fixed in place.

 

[Kailric]

it could be interesting, but more likely be really annoying, for what (I think) would amount to a fairly short period of gameplay, especially when we already have the 'hunting' system.

Good thoughts, Anyway, that is an idea for further down the road.

I think a better thing would be that you don't get animal bonuses appearing till you research domestication (or some such tech) so that in the beginning your hunters are following the herds to bring the meat back to camp. but then later you can found near and coral them, hunt them, game them, stronghold them, etc.

The up and moving towns does sound interesting though, if for example you reveal a bonus and you are 1 tile away from it you can move camp in the early game to take advantage of the better location.

Then once you build your first 'building' as opposed to a rock, cave or tent. your camp becomes fixed in place.

All this talk about "revealing bonuses" got me to look into what it would take and to find out it didn't take much at all. Most of the code from Civ4 to hide and reveal Bonuses was already in place.. so we now have Hidden Resources!! I just tested this in World Builder. I placed a Cotton resource on my plot and Nothing Appeared. I then researched Cotton and poof! Cotton pickn' for everybody

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Hooray! One more step for Col.!

I always hoped this would be a fairly simple thing as there is so little difference between civ and col with bonus resources, it was just the problem of getting col to respond to the new tech system. Great Job!

That will make certain techs/bonuses way more interesting I think.

 

[Kailric]

It's not like vikings wouldn't mind eating boar either. Also think about the boar reputation in Asterix (though not a valid historical source). Boar is certainly an important source of luxury food. It's not without reason. As I remember it is well tasting and kind of sweet. The latter is important in a world where sugar canes haven't been discovered yet.

So you've eaten "Boar" or pork sometime within memory? How's the boar population over in Europe these days? I've heard reports that the wild hogs around our parts are getting out of control, they are even making documentaries about it. I have friends that fly around in helicopters just shooting boar hogs as a sport. Game wise, for like WH, if left uncheck or unharvested, some Bonus types could start to spread and start reeking havoc on your farm land. Swine, Swine!!!

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Boar were pretty much wiped out in Britain, which shows how tastey people think they were

 

[Nightinggale]

I'm not aware of any significant wild boar population in Europe apart from southern Germany. However boars like to eat mushrooms, which in this case is a huge problem because the mushrooms sucks up stuff from the ground, in this case fallout from Chernobyl.This mean around 1/3 of the boars are discarded due to too high radioactivity. Norway also discards a fair amount of game due to the same reason, but I don't think they really have boars.

The wast majority of boars eaten today have never been in the wild. I can't imagine being a boar farmer, but some people do that. Boars are quite big and strong. For some reason they are easily becomes upset and becomes quite aggressive, which makes them dangerous and there are stories of them killing people.

City folks have declared boar endangered and made them illegal to hunt and they have started to spread. The same goes for wolves. Officially their spread haven't been aided by humans, which is quite disturbing. If you rule out the impossible, whatever remain must be true however unlikely it is. This mean they have figured out how to teleport

The European Parliament have declared wolves endangered and they are illegal to shoot. This have caused the death of quite a lot of sheep and dogs. In fact hunters in Sweden have stated that they can't use dogs anymore because they are killed by wolves and the hunters can watch, but it is illegal for them to save their own dogs. Eastern Europe has a huge problem with wolves living on the streets in cities, eating garbage and whatever else they can find. Unsurprisingly the supporters for "free wolves" can only be found in areas with no wolves.

 

[Kailric]

If you rule out the impossible, whatever remain must be true however unlikely it is. This mean they have figured out how to teleport

I love this quote. I use it quite often in bug hunting And sometimes come to a similar conclusion, the bug is teleporting all over the place so I can't find it.

The European Parliament have declared wolves endangered and they are illegal to shoot. This have caused the death of quite a lot of sheep and dogs. In fact hunters in Sweden have stated that they can't use dogs anymore because they are killed by wolves and the hunters can watch, but it is illegal for them to save their own dogs. Eastern Europe has a huge problem with wolves living on the streets in cities, eating garbage and whatever else they can find. Unsurprisingly the supporters for "free wolves" can only be found in areas with no wolves.

Hmm, typical political dogma, or should I say wolfma. Pass a law so you feel good about yourself, but others suffer because of it. What to do, what to do.

 

[drjest2000]

A small insert, one of the reasons modern levels of population exist in Europe and North America is because we did such a dandy job of killing off the dangerous animals, like wolves, bears, and boars (yes, boars, tasty AND deadly they be). If you need to know how dangerous a wild boar can be, you need only do an internet search for "hogzilla" or just go to the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogzilla

Legends of the classical and medieval periods speak of giant wild boars as large as a horse, so I'm saying we live in blessed lands where wild boars are rare.

As for this craziness of "save the (your chosen animal here)" Pfah. Sponge-headed hippies. If it will likely eat your baby, kill it. And if it's tasty, eat it. If it's got pretty fur, skin it and wear it. Just like our ancestors did.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Until there are no more left and we can only read about them in books...

It has happened in the past and it is happening now.

I am all for control, management, and human safety.

But much of what happens isn't about that, it's about money... big old butt tonnes of useless money..

However I fear this topic will fast spin off into digression heaven...

When the gameplay feature being discussed was limited resources, reduction/growth of tile yields, ecology 'management' and migration of 'resources'. In connection with the players interaction with these things.

 

[Kailric]

As for this craziness ....

drjest2000!!

Where in the bleep have you been?? Is this your ghost? Are you back from the dead? I've sent you several PM's trying to get your attention. To tell you one main thing...

I MISS YOU

Edit:

Back on topic. I have been thinking of separating Furs from Hides, so that Furs are a Luxury Good, and Hides are used for materials in producing things. That's pretty much the way it was.

 

[drjest2000]

@Lib.Spi't

The problem now is the commercial harvesting of things on a scale that was previously impossible. Moderation in all things is always a good rule. The balance was maintained until sometime in the 1800s, the date varies by location. In the USA is was about 1860-1880 for animals, about 1900-1920 for everything else. I can't speak for European arenas.

But, honestly, I'm not a big fan of mankind these days, we're approaching a sort of bottleneck because of our own arrogant ignorance. I just know that history demonstrates a pattern of us humans only "getting a clue" after its past the tipping point. Then our solution is almost always to blame the other guy, fight a war, etc.


@Kailric

I am a ghost of my former self to be sure, but the dark blood-thirsty gods of my ancestors have seen fit to leave me among the living. Odin allowing, I will crawl into the fray again.

I have a 64-bit system now (both desktop and laptop) so I can tell you this: M:C (and Civ4Col) is running smoother than ever and looks great. I'm still chewing through the changes and will be able to say more after I log some more hours playing.

And, squeee! I missed you too!

EDIT: I think we may have discussed the fur vs. hides thing at some point. If not, we should have. Furs are luxury goods, hides maybe too (books were a major luxury good, parchment was made from hides)

 

[Kailric]

And, squeee! I missed you too!

I think we may have discussed the fur vs. hides thing at some point. If not, we should have. Furs are luxury goods, hides maybe too (books were a major luxury good, parchment was made from hides)

Well, there have been several suggestions that M:C is in need of more YieldTypes and I would have to agree. Research could require YIELD_PARCHMENT, but what profession makes parchment?

Also, I am thinking of adding a new option to Civics and Techs in that they can change the Requirements of Industries. Say, currently Fealty cost nothing, but under certain Civics it could cost Gold in order to produce Fealty. Then, with Research, it could cost Parchments, but when you discover Paper, it could cost nothing.

What other or better ideas could go along with this?

 

[orlanth]

I think its not wise to force all Research to require one Yield, but is much more interesting to let certain Techs require certain Yields as you have had in the Inventor mod; this stimulates each Yield to have a unique role where you might need to seek out (and even purchase or import) some of a certain Yield to use as a research input for a special Tech you are wanting to get. This is also more realistic, since researching and perfecting various Smithing technologies would consume things like iron ore and tools while not needing parchment, etc.

 

[Kailric]

I think you are right on this, I seem to forget about that option and I am the one who created it. The reason I believe I turned that off was because it will take some balancing to get it all right, plus the tech tree is still a work in progress. With a feature like requiring different resources for Techs you would need to make sure everything flows correctly so your not left gimped and unable to proceed. We'll add this feature back for play testing sometime in the near future.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I would say it is a bad idea that early techs would need a specialist yield, as that will really screw you...

but as you get to the later techs, a special yield like parchement and paper (+certain other yields as suggested) would be good though.

I also like the idea of civics and other events having the ability to change yields for industries could have some really great potential, especially in the WH scope. But even things like 'shortage events' or some such, that force an industry to switch to an alternate source, like wool to cotton or vice versa, etc. For a period of time.

 

[Kailric]

Right, that's what I mean by needing to be balanced so it doesn't leave you gimped, and I'm sure we'll find that balance. Also, we can add back the need for Professionals to be working on the research project in order to gain points. Like an Expert Blacksmith could be needed for Chainmail. This requirement would be rare so not to bring research to a total stop. Throughout history rulers have hired, persuaded, or enslaved Professionals in order to advance some knowledge, so that would be quite fitting.

 

[orlanth]

Also, I am thinking of adding a new option to Civics and Techs in that they can change the Requirements of Industries. Say, currently Fealty cost nothing, but under certain Civics it could cost Gold in order to produce Fealty

This can best be achieved by using Techs/Civics to unlock and obsolete Professions, giving you access to Professions that have your desired combination of YieldsProduced and YieldsConsumed. (I think this actually is already possible with existing Professions XML and Civics XML but correct me if I'm wrong on this) In 2071 I'd planned to use this as you say to let Techs unlock new ways of producing things (eg if you colonize a swamp planet that's rich in Microbes but is poor in Hydrocarbons which you end up needing, you could invest in Hydrocarbon Fermentation tech to let your microbiologists ferment Microbes into Hydrocarbons )

On topic of the 2071 mod I can't figure out why it is no longer working But I expect that the many updates to base M:C DLL has made the XML output it was generating become incompatible with the new DLL. Unfortunately I don't know where in the many XML files the incompatibility arises (possibly in multiple places), and it would take quite a long time to rebuild the entire XML generator from scratch to match the new version, with a risk of becoming incompatible again later. Maybe it is just best overall to wait until MC XML schema is in a definitely final version before making modmods from this.

 

[drjest2000]

Something Like:

Writing + Animal husbandry = Parchment yield?

Parchment made where though? I'm just free-forming, not really thought about the buildings yet. Wherever the parchment is made, 1 Hide yield converts to 1 Parchment yield.

Code of laws + Monasticism = Scribe (amanuensis) worker? Let's say monks can do this also, be an inventor in the monastery, be a scribe in the library.

Library has 1-3 worker slots for Scribes

Scribe + 10 parchment = 1 Book yield (this ratio preserves the relative historical scarcity of books and assures their status as luxury good)

Other uses for the Book yield could be related to the school, for instance, the school might consume Book yields to accelerate training of high status workers, the same way that Luxury food generates high status units.

 

[Kailric]

This can best be achieved by using Techs/Civics to unlock and obsolete Professions

That is true, I actually didn't think of that. I keep thinking that buildings make the profession, but it is Professions tied to buildings. So, multiple Professions can work in the same building you just need a way to turn them on and off, which we just happen to have that.

On topic of the 2071 mod I can't figure out why it is no longer working

Yeah, I want to get it to working, but there is just so much more that is going to be added that it will probably be counter productive to attempt to do so.

Something Like:

Writing + Animal husbandry = Parchment yield?

Parchment made where though? I'm just free-forming, not really thought about the buildings yet. Wherever the parchment is made, 1 Hide yield converts to 1 Parchment yield.

Code of laws + Monasticism = Scribe (amanuensis) worker? Let's say monks can do this also, be an inventor in the monastery, be a scribe in the library.

Library has 1-3 worker slots for Scribes

Scribe + 10 parchment = 1 Book yield (this ratio preserves the relative historical scarcity of books and assures their status as luxury good)

Other uses for the Book yield could be related to the school, for instance, the school might consume Book yields to accelerate training of high status workers, the same way that Luxury food generates high status units.

I really like this idea and the idea of having Bonus Yields adding to Production. This could be made possible perhaps as mentioned above with added new Professions. If a Bonus Yield, like Books, is present then it will unlock a new Profession in Schools, Inventors House, etc. The Code will simply add and remove Professions of those already working their if the Bonus Yield is present. I'll have to think of the best way to code it though, as there may be a better solution. What if you are Producing Research that is consuming Books as a Bonus Yield, but you need cash and would rather Sell the Books. So, there would need to be some way to turn this on and off. Anyway, Techs/Civics could unlock these Bonus Yields too.