Beta v4.X - General Discussion

[Gamewizard]

Just some quick feedback on the latest beta...I got wrecked playing an immortal game. I tried beelining the watermill and got rushed by England with archers and warriors, eventually swordsman and a key horseman to finish the job. I like the decrease in early game gold on a river start, felt more balanced, and I didn't feel like I had to place extra cities on rivers as a priority. It was funny to see a coastal river city place its first citizen on a coast tile (2F1G) as this was the strongest unimproved tile for once. Normally I would never work a non-resource coast tile for prolly the entire game.

Hopefully next game I can get past 100 turns without losing to see how the watermill/river changes play out late game.

 

[Thalassicus]

I'm checking out the Cultural Diffusion mod and there's info in the bottom right info popup - the hover modcomp disables this, correct? That's all I'm concerned about.

Oh, no that's something different... hover info only affects unit flags. The unit flag is the icon of a unit and promotion icons attached to it.

Attila's Mods has the effect disabling the lower-right tooltip.

Unofficial Patch\Attila Mods\UI\InGame\WorldView\PlotHelpText.lua

Un-comment line 80:

        --Controls.TextBox:SetHide(false);

to

        Controls.TextBox:SetHide(false);

Just some quick feedback on the latest beta...I got wrecked playing an immortal game. I tried beelining the watermill and got rushed by England with archers and warriors, eventually swordsman and a key horseman to finish the job. I like the decrease in early game gold on a river start, felt more balanced, and I didn't feel like I had to place extra cities on rivers as a priority. It was funny to see a coastal river city place its first citizen on a coast tile (2F1G) as this was the strongest unimproved tile for once. Normally I would never work a non-resource coast tile for prolly the entire game.

Hopefully next game I can get past 100 turns without losing to see how the watermill/river changes play out late game.

Yep, since they cost as much as a world wonder of their era, building a lot right away is just asking for a rush from a neighbor. I tried the same thing in one of my games and got rushed by Augustus with archers, warriors, and chariots.


====================

Here's an overview of how tile yields look in v4.12 beta. I tend to be a visual person - looking at things makes it easier to get a real sense of how things work when there's dozens of variables involved.


With a lighthouse and watermill in the city:

With Civil Service, Compass, Smokehouse, and Harbor:

I removed the 2 on fish from the harbor, since those 2g bonuses are aimed at luxuries and fish already get a bonus from the smokehouse. I originally had this only for whales and pearls, but added it to fish as well because it felt a little inconsistent for the harbor to not boost all sea resources. I think from a balance perspective though, it's better to have slightly weaker fish, even if it results in a little inconsistency.

 

[Joneill]

I removed the 2 on fish from the harbor, since those 2g bonuses are aimed at luxuries and fish already get a bonus from the smokehouse. I originally had this only for whales and pearls, but added it to fish as well because it felt a little inconsistent for the harbor to not boost all sea resources. I think from a balance perspective though, it's better to have slightly weaker fish, even if it results in a little inconsistency.

I think all three sea resources are actually a bit too strong. The base yield of coast keeps up pretty well with non-river improved grassland (lighthouse+seaport vs. economics-boosted trading post). On top of that, you get to improve the resource with fishing boats and get an additional 2 hammers from a seaport. Don't think the smokehouse and harbor bonusses are really needed.
Also, with the move of the coastal food bonus from the lighthouse to the base terrain, gold maintenance and flavor should probably be adjusted (same for the buffed seaport).
Thanks for the great work, as usual .

edit: The change to watermills has imo cut the uniqueness of the floating gardens quite a bit, since so much of the power of the building now comes from spices/sugar and river tiles. With the increased maintenance and removed 2-food bonus it is now actually worse in oasis/one lake cities. Still stronger than the watermill, but not really unique anymore. Not saying that Aztecs need a buff, but it was nice having a civ building that was more than just a straight yield-increase over the normal one.

 

[Seek]

Oh, no that's something different... hover info only affects unit flags. The unit flag is the icon of a unit and promotion icons attached to it.

Attila's Mods has the effect disabling the lower-right tooltip.

Unofficial Patch\Attila Mods\UI\InGame\WorldView\PlotHelpText.lua

Un-comment line 80:

Thanks, sorry to be a trouble!

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Ideally, I think coast/ocean should be something like this:

• Base coast: 1F, 2G
• Base ocean: 1F, 1G
• Lighthouse: +1F, 1 or 2 maint.
• Harbor: +1G, no bonus for resources, 3 maint.
• Seaport: +2H for resources, 3 maint
• Research Lab: +2S

It stays pretty close to vanilla values, the increased gold from the base coast could balance the lack of gold on rivers and the Seaport has the role of giving the bonus to resources, the Harbor seemed a little redundant by doing so as well. Another thought, if you're going to leave the values as they are now perhaps the buildings should have prereqs like other building lines. Ie, the Seaport requires the Harbor which requires the Lighthouse.

----------

@Joneill (or Thal) - What are the specs for the Floating Gardens now?

 

[Thalassicus]

The maintenance is still less than a regular Watermill, though I've always felt the unique part is the +15% modifier... the only thing that resembles that is the Tradition policy.

Until a city gets a seaport, sea and land resources are very close in yields. This is with everything but a seaport:

I do agree sea resources outpace their land-based brethren once a seaport's built, but that's the same way it was in vanilla too. I did reduce the production bonus on resources from the seaport to 1 for v4.12 beta.

@Seek
I could swap the +2 on sea resources and +1 on sea tiles between the Harbor to the Seaport, it'd make the seaport more consistent and put both gold bonuses for rivers and sea on the same tech (Compass).

I do want to try things out a while with water tiles at 2 so they can be worked right away, like slightly better grasslands, though might change it back later. Aside from the gameplay reason, I'm thinking about another angle. Small populations and earlier times in history could rely on fishing for food supply. As history progressed, advances in long-range naval transport improved the value of water for trade. It sort of makes sense realistically to start off with a decent amount of food from the sea and improve commerce by developing the region with a lighthouse, harbor, and seaport. It's not really possible to increase the amount of fish in the sea, on the other hand (with the exception of land-based artificial fisheries). Building some fishing boats does increase food yield of those particular tiles, so it's still represented in the game.

 

[Joneill]

• Base coast: 1F, 2G
• Base ocean: 1F, 1G
• Lighthouse: +1F, 1 or 2 maint.
• Harbor: +1G, no bonus for resources, 3 maint.
• Seaport: +2H for resources, 3 maint
• Research Lab: +2S

Agree with that list except for the harbor part - I think that bonus might aswell be on the seaport, to make it more useful. The harbor could imo much more benefit from an increase in it's military bonus, say extra experience for naval units and/or a bump to the production bonus.

 

[Seek]

Cheers, the Chinampa looks fine to me.

Forgot to mention in the last post that although I agree with Joneill that sea resources are a bit to powerful now, the yields in general are fine. Removing the Harbor's +G to resources was the main point there.

 

[rhammer640]

I do want to try things out a while with water tiles at 2 so they can be worked right away, like slightly better grasslands, though might change it back later. Aside from the gameplay reason, I'm thinking about another angle. Small populations and earlier times in history could rely on fishing for food supply. As history progressed, advances in long-range naval transport improved the value of water for trade. It sort of makes sense realistically to start off with a decent amount of food from the sea and improve commerce by developing the region with a lighthouse, harbor, and seaport. It's not really possible to increase the amount of fish in the sea, on the other hand (with the exception of land-based artificial fisheries). Building some fishing boats does increase food yield of those particular tiles, so it's still represented in the game.

While i like the idea of early use of ocean tiles, I think its a little weird that working ocean should be the same a working the land. Maybe at sailing you could boost the tiles to add the second food which would make sense as before you get the tech for working boats you couldn't get as much food yield. It would also make gunning for sailing as valuable as gunning for another tech at that same level.

As far as the watermill is concerned, i like the change to put gold on that tech and take away the +2 food. I think it achieves that balance you were looking for with ocean vs river starts.

On a side note: it might be a bit of a hack way to go about it but would there be a way to add a building to all cities that reduced gold from tiles adjacent to rivers by 50%? It wouldn't do anythign for the first one but after that it would reduce it by half. Then you could have the watermill remove the building or something.

 

[Thalassicus]

There aren't stats in the files to improve terrain with techs, or create a building with a % modifier to terrain (this is why whenever I modify terrain I do it with flat yield changes on a building).

Beyond just start locations, I want to see how playtesting turns out with coasts and rivers basically the same... same base yields, similar buildings, and so on.


===============

Today's v4.13 beta brings these changes:

• I reverted all National Wonders back to vanilla cost values. One main reason for abandoning the increased cost-per-city modifiers is I couldn't figure out a good way to deal with different map sizes with our current tools.
• National wonders now require the prereq building in 80% of cities. This requirement must be met when construction is started (or resumed), and is not interrupted each time a city is added to the empire (but the cost does go up as normal).
• Harbors
  • Removed resource bonuses
  • Returned maintenance cost back to vanilla 3/turn
  • +50% for sea units (was 25%)
  • +15xp for sea units (was 0)
• +15xp for air units with an Arsenal.
• Removed local resource requirement for Stables and Forges.
• +1 on Iron from a Forge.
• Reinstated 2 on Chinampas.

 

[SSgtDuke]

[4.09]
Has something changed regarding AI unit maintenance? I attempted to go through Napoleon's land to get to the Aztecs and found an unbelievable number of French units completely clogging up their land. The below image shows only a fraction of the troops that I eventually discovered as I tried to cross the land (only a few units ever successfully made it through).

Spoiler :

Napoleon had about six times as many unit points as me, twice as many as the runner up, and was still raking in 202 gold per turn. He was third in total points. Something doesn't seem right here, he had way too many units at too little cost.

Spoiler :

On another note, I like that the research sharing with friends basically forces you to join one side or the other if you don't want to get significantly left behind tech-wise. Previously I just completely ignored friendships and was a lone wolf because that seemed like the choice with the least drawbacks. But I still maintain that the tech pace after Philosophy needs to be significantly slowed down. I was again seeing modern era units in the 1700s. A confirmation that this is on the todo list will shut me up.

 

[rhammer640]

There aren't stats in the files to improve terrain with techs, or create a building with a % modifier to terrain (this is why whenever I modify terrain I do it with flat yield changes on a building).

Beyond just start locations, I want to see how playtesting turns out with coasts and rivers basically the same... same base yields, similar buildings, and so on.


===============

Today's v4.11 beta brings these changes:

• I reverted all National Wonders back to vanilla cost values. One main reason for abandoning the increased cost-per-city modifiers is I couldn't figure out a good way to deal with different map sizes with our current tools.
• National wonders now require the prereq building in 80% of cities. This requirement must be met when construction is started, and is not interrupted each time a city is added to the empire (but the cost does go up as normal).
• Harbors
  • Removed resource bonuses
  • Returned maintenance cost back to vanilla 3/turn
  • +50% for sea units (was 25%)
  • +15xp for sea units (was 0)
• +15xp for air units with an Arsenal.
• Removed local resource requirement for Stables and Forges.
• +1
  
  on Iron from a Forge.
• Reinstated 2 on Chinampas.

wow, looks like i was batting zero with that post, lol.

I thought you couldn't find a way to require buildingings in a percentage of cities for NW? Glad you found a way apparently!

I'm disappointed that you removed the local requirement of horses for the stable, that was one of my favorite mechanics and really added some local diversity in my build orders which a found very fun and in tune with how you added building bonuses for all the other resources. Why did you remove it?

 

[Thalassicus]

The AI has always liked spamming units, there's no variable we can edit (that I've found) that can tell them "hey you've got enough!" This is the reason I started the Late-game AI unit clogging thread, since it mostly happens in the late industrial / early modern era (and typically on high difficulty levels).

Apart from that though, I did encourage warlike leaders like Napoleon to emphasize units, gold, and conquering people more. The current problem is that no matter how high I set their boldness/meanness/favor war values, they still sit on their hands even with a big army. I think Sneaks is working on a way to make AIs more aggressive in his What Would Gandhi Do mod.

Glad you like the resource sharing! One reason I'm hesitant to slow tech pace too much (it already drops to half the speed of vanilla in the modern era) is we risk not having enough to do. If it's just a matter of gameplay not matching the date, I'd rather adjust that directly instead of the balance of research/production/growth/etc.

So I guess what I'm asking is... are you feeling research is going so fast units obsolete before you can use them, or is it just that the years don't match tech levels? These are different parts of the game I can alter. If it's units going obsolete too quickly, you might also try playing on Epic or Marathon speed, both of which allow more time to move stuff around relative to tech pace. I personally always play on Epic.

There's no easy way to do percentage requirements for national wonders, but I've been gradually building up knowledge of how the lua side of things works, and realized a way to add the effect into the game with a new type of building stat and updating all the relevant UI elements. It's similar to how I added the / stat to the Museum.

Stables still give 2 on horse tiles. A little faster mounted unit production alone is not particularly good at places where there's no horses nearby, but at least the option is open if a player really wants to build a stable at a certain spot. Basically it's more like the other buildings now (moderate bonus to start with, better with resources).

 

[SSgtDuke]

are you feeling research is going so fast units obsolete before you can use them, or is it just that the years don't match tech levels?

Well, I think it's both. Pre-tech sharing the pace felt good. Both in how long the units were at their prime and the dates that techs could be reached at. Now we have more beakers but the same tech requirements, so all post-Philosophy techs get researched faster. I think the post-Philosophy tech requirements need to be increased so that a civ with an average amount of beakers from friends techs at the same pace as they did pre-tech sharing. Basically, the tech pace should be the same as it was pre-tech sharing, except that you suffer a slower pace if you don't get beakers from friends, requiring you to maintain some diplomacy if you are not a wild expanding warmonger.

Eventually I think culture sharing should be worked into this as well, but the initial tech side should probably be ironed out first.

 

[rhammer640]

Stables still give 2 on horse tiles. A little faster mounted unit production alone is not particularly good at places where there's no horses nearby, but at least the option is open if a player really wants to build a stable at a certain spot. Basically it's more like the other buildings now (moderate bonus to start with, better with resources).

Ok that makes sense. as long as they still give the bonus and whatnot i actually like that it can be built anywhere.

Have you considered breaking up the food bonus' off of the smokehouse and splitting them up like the luxury resources are? The smokehouse is now a building that i almost always want to build and it becomes very powerful. If you'd rather not split them up, maybe just removing the 1 food in addition or adding some maintenance. I just feel its very powerful now especially with 2 or 3 food resources you get +3 or +4 food for very cheap. I like that it makes pottery worth going for on its own but maybe toned down a bit.

While on the subject of first tech choices, i dont know how everyone else feels but i never ever ever go for archery until last. Maybe adding a non-war bonus to the tech might help that... unless im alone on this one. Maybe the archery tech would be a better spot for the smokehouse because you could kill more animals with archery than before. Pottery is already good because its the path for a ton of good techs but it would have to have something added to it.

 

[Thalassicus]

@SSgtDuke
Are you certain the per-turn method is faster research than 1 free tech each 30 turns...? This is something I brought up a little while earlier:

On the specific subject of balancing the research rate, I found some screenshots from earlier games I played.

• Late Renaissance
• 220 per turn
• Techs here cost ~1300 (archaeology, scientific theory, military science, etc)
• 1300 after 30 turns is 43 per turn, a +20% research rate.

• Modern Era
• 957 per turn
• Techs at that point cost ~3000
• 3000 after 30 turns is equal to 100 per turn, a +10% research rate.

If anyone can report similar numbers for their own games (medieval era or later) it would be greatly appreciated.

The per turn method averages a 10% research rate, and in the games I've played the free-tech method averaged a 10%-20% research rate, so things are about the same or slower for me. In Kirschi's games it's a similar situation:

Here my experience with the new RA system in beta 4.05.

In the end of classical/early medival:
30 from city
2.4 from 1 RA
average cost: ~400
so this is around 200 turns if its only the RA bonus compared to 30 turns from the original system. So if someone complains about overpowered or unfair against warmongers, well I can't agree ^^

late renaissance:
188 from city
14.05 from 1 RA
average cost: ~1500 (= ~100 turns to finish with RA)

so from mid-medival on it was always 1/100 of the current science cost. Scaled pretty linear with eras. In early modern I managed to get a second DoF (but only because that guy feared me after a conquest trip ^^), increasing the bonus by ~80% (not quite doubled).
6 players and I tried my best to "DoF" as much as I could (additionally being peaceful until modern), but managed to get only one until then. So sometimes it isn't that easy, as some say...
Maybe yes with 12 players, but I never had more than 3 DoFs.

EDIT: After all, I like the new system. The problem with the original RAs was, that the AI had not enough gold in the latest Balance Combined versions. One or two RAs very already a big success (altogether in a whole game), but often there was not a single one.

If your own playtesting experience differs from this, the feedback really helps to balance the percentage the per-turn method gives. Right now it seems it slows tech pace while increasing gold available. Based on the feedback I've had so far and the testing I've done, it does seem to achieve your goal:

Basically, the tech pace should be the same as it was pre-tech sharing, except that you suffer a slower pace if you don't get beakers from friends, requiring you to maintain some diplomacy if you are not a wild expanding warmonger.

@rhammer640
If anything, I'd probably just increase the Smokehouse's base cost. It's a building I've had lots of positive feedback on so I don't want to risk sending it back to vanilla "never build" status.

I completely agree about Archery, which is one reason I buffed Archers themselves... they're a very low priority for me. I feel the unit itself is rather well balanced now in 4.0 though, so I'd probably alter the tech itself as you say.

Here's a thought... what if I moved the Camp improvement to Archery?

 

[SSgtDuke]

Are you certain the per-turn method is faster research than 1 free tech each 30 turns...?

Aha! This is a very, very good point. I was always playing with RAs turned off (Philosophy tech feature commented out). That's why it's playing so differently for me now. So I guess I'm not the best person to make a general comparison with how the tech pace was working pre-tech sharing.

But, either way, the techs are still being researched so much earlier than their historical reality that it makes the games a little silly (to see modern armour and aircraft in the 1700s). I think ideally the tech pace should run so that the average leading civ is on pace with, or slightly earlier than, historical record. I would guess that the average player of this mod is playing on Emperor (surely some above and some below) and that could be used as the baseline, since AI research bonuses have to be taken into consideration here.

 

[rhammer640]

@rhammer640
If anything, I'd probably just increase the Smokehouse's base cost. It's a building I've had lots of positive feedback on so I don't want to risk sending it back to vanilla "never build" status.

I completely agree about Archery, which is one reason I buffed Archers themselves... they're a very low priority for me. I feel the unit itself is rather well balanced now in 4.0 though, so I'd probably alter the tech itself as you say.

Here's a thought... what if I moved the Camp improvement to Archery?

Maybe an increase of cost and Removing the one food so that its more just a situational building. I also love the building and think its awesome...just maybe too awesome

I would be in favor of moving the camp improvement to archery! I always hate having camp resources cause its sooooo far into the tech tree. That would make archery equally as viable in my opinion. Although there would then be a need to make trapping a bit better i think. I would rather change camps to archery and make trapping better though.

 

[Joneill]

Maybe an increase of cost and Removing the one food so that its more just a situational building. I also love the building and think its awesome...just maybe too awesome

Disagree about the smokehouse (although I said that the fish bonus could be removed, but for a different reason ). While it gives good returns if you have 3+ food-resources in your city, it should still be an option for cities without any. Not high-priority in the build-order then, but not quite as useless as the vanilla granary (which was just a bit costlier).

I would be in favor of moving the camp improvement to archery! I always hate having camp resources cause its sooooo far into the tech tree. That would make archery equally as viable in my opinion. Although there would then be a need to make trapping a bit better i think. I would rather change camps to archery and make trapping better though.

Alternatively, why not move the barracks to archery and remove the barracks-requirement from the armory (the latter just so that beelining to ironworking doesn't give a building that you can't actually build). Bronze working is a pretty strong tech anyway, with resource reveal, wonder and buffed spearman. Wouldn't get people to prioritize the tech, but at least it gives a better return on the spent beakers. And "Forcing" players to research it just because they started next to ivory/fur doesn't seem like more choice to me.

 

[rhammer640]

Disagree about the smokehouse (although I said that the fish bonus could be removed, but for a different reason ). While it gives good returns if you have 3+ food-resources in your city, it should still be an option for cities without any. Not high-priority in the build-order then, but not quite as useless as the vanilla granary (which was just a bit costlier).



Alternatively, why not move the barracks to archery and remove the barracks-requirement from the armory (the latter just so that beelining to ironworking doesn't give a building that you can't actually build). Bronze working is a pretty strong tech anyway, with resource reveal, wonder and buffed spearman.

I agree that its not super powerful down the line but its so strong because its so early in the tech tree. I regularly have 3+ food resources as well in cities because i tend to focus on expanding borders with culture buildings. Cities most always have at least one food resource and if its supposed to be a smoke house to store foods why should it provide a bonus without food to store. Maybe leave it at the same cost but take away the additional 1 food might be nice so that its still pretty cheap but more situational.

As far as moving the barracks to archery I get the logic but i doubt a barracks will make ppl want to ever try to get it before pottery, AH, and mining, which in my opinion should be the goal. All early techs should be equally appealing. I never feel rushed to build a barracks so i wouldn't need it that early. Trapping on the other hand feels too far away. I mean ppl were hunting for deer and other animals for fur, etc just as early as they were planting crops. And archery makes sense for this improvement because archery helped in hunting said animals.

Just my 2 cents on the matter. It does leave trapping with some work though.

 

[Kirschi]

• +15xp for sea units (was 0)
  
• +15xp for air units with an Arsenal.

thank thal, finally ^^

I agree that Archery needs a buff/additional goodie. Most of the time I research it only then when I need the next tech in the next era ^^
Smokehouse is fine as it is, I think. No need to change again

And for the tech pace, I agree that is should be slower, but because units go obsolete before I can *really* use them. As for the "historical reality", who knows what would have happened when the byzantine or similar empire would still be here. They were pretty resourceful, so maybe we could have had computers in 1500

(Tech/date correlation does not really matter to me, I never look at that, but thats just my opinion of course ).