Better Espionage

[Ranger99]

One thing that I would really like to see is a better Spy system in CivIV. Think about it, in the real-world inteligence gathering and ect. are the MOST important part on the battlefield. Some things that could be implented are like having COS's (Chief Of Station) running agents and gathering intel on the enemy and like a Fort Meade type thing, working on cracking ciphers and getting intercepts of enemy movements. The purley money thing isn't that good, it discourages people from using spies as it can get REALLY exspensive.

What do you guys think about a new and better Espionage System??

 

[fish_229]

There's definetly no question that Civ 3's spy system must be overhauled. It really just was a last minute addition to the project, and it sure felt like it. I think that Civ 4 should reflect that real world spy info supremely effects world events, and diplomacy.

I'd like to see a system where you devote money to spy industries, with different ones opening up as you go along the tech tree, like at first just plain bribery and personal around the WW2 era, and then later on photo recon and electronic intercept opens up to you. You should also be able to set intel targets for your agencies, if you have one major threat in the region your resources could be devoted to that. Basically a way better intergration of spy stuff into you ruling a nation.

You should be able to set targets on stuff just like in Civ 3. Example: you set your photo recon to finding troop movements, electronic to diplomatic info(that countries stance on stuuf or maybe an advantage in negoitiations with that civ for a certain amount of time) and general intel to inciting rebellion in country. My thoughts.

 

[Winston]

Yep, totally agree - espionage in Civ 3 is so lame I wonder why they bothered including it. They obviously stuck it in at the last minute and didn't bother to test it to see if it works well.

Espionage in Civ 2 was far better in my opinion. One of the main reasons for that was because it didn't rely on a bottomless treasury to be implemented and there was less random chance involved. It was also good for gameplay reasons because it allowed civs to 'catch up' in the tech race with the top rivals - this created more competitive gameplay.

I also thought that espionage was one of the most interesting elements to Civ 2 and I would love to see a revived espionage system in Civ 4. There are so many ways they could improve the system, for example they could add new missions of which some suggestions would be:

Smear Campaign

Spies plant/expose embarressing secrets within the leadership of a rival regarding domestic policies/ shady business transactions/ personal lives etc - this has the effect of creating a scandal that causes domestic unhappiness and international rep hits

Illegal Trading

Civ secretly sells items such as guns or narcotics on the black market to another Civ's populous - has the effect of generating gold for Civ whilst causing corruption and unhappiness with the other Civ.

Steal Money

Civ sets up fraudulant transactions to siphon money away from another Civ (appears as corruption in the other Civ).

Assassination

Forces an internal power struggle in autocratic civs (reduced trade/production etc).

Recruit foriegn scientists

Spies recruit foriegn scientists and persuade them to provide intelligence relating to foriegn research - has the effect of generating more beakers for own research and being able to monitor rivals scientific research including turns left till next tech is discovered

Provoke internal tensions

Spies use propaganda to stoke up any regional/religious/ethnic tensions that may exist within a Civ's empire which creates uprisings/ cities breaking away from an empire.

If the developers implement a good system then it would provide an excellent way for underdogs to catch up with/hobble the top civ and therefore the game remains more competitive in the later stages.

 

[Winston]

Another thing I would like to see is spies being able to frame other Civs so that they take the heat for your dirty tricks! That would be so cool

 

[Ranger99]

This is some good stuff, some other things like;

1.Getting Radio intercpts on troop locations and near-future movements and builds

2.High-level Assasinations, such as taking out a military?politicol leader with effects matching who you took out.

3.Running agents in varying cities using COS's to get Currency estimations, troop strength, city produtivness, ect.

4.Inserting moles into enemy agencies and governmet positions, the moles would be for stuff like politicol decisions, build orders, government switches, ect.

5.Turning enemy agents, either keeping them in or getting them out of 'Dodge City' depending on their choice, they too would be used much like moles.

Another thing is the money issue, it is WAY too expensive, not everything revovles around money, there is the classic acroynm; MICE (Money, Ideology, Conscience, and Ego) for defectors and such, it should be implented into the game to make the 'spy game' MUCH more realistic and exciting.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, I have brought this up before, but will repeat it here for those who haven't seen it before.
Personally, the best model for Intelligence Operations I have ever seen is that of 'Birth of the Federation' (old microprose game). In it, you recieved Intelligence Points for manning specific intelligence improvements on your planet. You could then allocate these points-on a % basis-towards Internal Security and other empires with whom you had contact.
You could then break these IP allocations up further (if you wished) into Espionage and Sabotage. Beyond this, if you truly wanted to SPECIALISE, then you could even break the Espionage/Sabotage point allocations into commercial, industrial, general (domestic), scientific and military.
At the end of the day, the amount of points you had in a particular kind of operation would determine both the frequency and success chance of Intelligence Operations (or, in the case of Internal Security, try and prevent them being conducted against you). You would recieve regular intellgince updates at the start of each turn, as well as being asked for permission to conduct especially heinous acts of sabotage-and/or to plant evidence of another nations involvement at the scene.
Although I am not suggesting that this model be completely replicated, I DO believe that it could form the basis of an excellent intelligence system for CivIV. It lacks the Micromanagement involved in moving around individual spies/diplomats, whilst still making intelligence operations both very important and quite exciting and complex (but not complicated).
Hope that makes sense!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Graadiapolistan]

Yep, totally agree - espionage in Civ 3 is so lame I wonder why they bothered including it. They obviously stuck it in at the last minute and didn't bother to test it to see if it works well.

Espionage in Civ 2 was far better in my opinion. One of the main reasons for that was because it didn't rely on a bottomless treasury to be implemented and there was less random chance involved. It was also good for gameplay reasons because it allowed civs to 'catch up' in the tech race with the top rivals - this created more competitive gameplay.

I also thought that espionage was one of the most interesting elements to Civ 2 and I would love to see a revived espionage system in Civ 4. There are so many ways they could improve the system, for example they could add new missions of which some suggestions would be:

Smear Campaign

Spies plant/expose embarressing secrets within the leadership of a rival regarding domestic policies/ shady business transactions/ personal lives etc - this has the effect of creating a scandal that causes domestic unhappiness and international rep hits

Illegal Trading

Civ secretly sells items such as guns or narcotics on the black market to another Civ's populous - has the effect of generating gold for Civ whilst causing corruption and unhappiness with the other Civ.

Steal Money

Civ sets up fraudulant transactions to siphon money away from another Civ (appears as corruption in the other Civ).

Assassination

Forces an internal power struggle in autocratic civs (reduced trade/production etc).

Recruit foriegn scientists

Spies recruit foriegn scientists and persuade them to provide intelligence relating to foriegn research - has the effect of generating more beakers for own research and being able to monitor rivals scientific research including turns left till next tech is discovered

Provoke internal tensions

Spies use propaganda to stoke up any regional/religious/ethnic tensions that may exist within a Civ's empire which creates uprisings/ cities breaking away from an empire.

If the developers implement a good system then it would provide an excellent way for underdogs to catch up with/hobble the top civ and therefore the game remains more competitive in the later stages.

YES! one more thing though, if cities break off from empires, they form their own mini-countries or join other civs. Like the U.S. or canada or australia from englnad.

 

[fish_229]

I agree with you Aussie Lurker, and Birth of Federation's espionages system was one of its best features. There should also be veternacy for operations, something that was put into Civ 3 but was pretty much meaningless. What I mean is if I keep pulling off successful coup operations in all my rivals countries, it should be easier and cheaper (either in terms of points or money) for me to mount these operations.

A real world example is the American CIA. It's been running covert ops ever since the start of WW2. Therefore, it can mount ops that are more likely to succede and are less costly than an intel agency in Lran that just got set up 5 years ago. It's justifyed by better logistics, more experience about what may happen and of course basic unit veterancy. And I still think this could be applyed to different angencies of your intel (i.e. my human intel agency has spymaster status, while my electronic intel has only a new recruit veterancy)

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, there are two ways I think Intelligence can be modelled:

1) You have a Foreign Affairs budget, money allocated to this budget has several key functions:
(i) How many diplomatic contacts you can make each turn.
(ii) How quickly your international reputation repairs after it drops (and how badly it drops when it is harmed).
(iii) How much your Intelligence points are boosted by, as well as how quickly your spies 'advance'.
(iv) Boosts the rate of cultural transmission to other nations-whether passive, semi-passive and active.
(v) Pays the cost of spy units, embassies and Intelligence Improvements.
How much money you can allocate to foreign affairs is effected by your level of Isolationism (a social engineering setting).

2) You build 'spy' units but, unlike in Civ2, you don't move them-they instead end up in your national 'Intelligence Pool'. Each 'spy unit' costs money from your foreign affairs budget (and, if insufficient funds have been provided, then any excess units will be disbanded)-as well as a part of the building city's population. Each 'spy unit' grants a base number of Intelligence Points-based on the average experience level and tech level.

3) As you succeed in particular forms of missions, the number of points you get in that mission type is increased (i.e. instead of 10% of 300 points giving you 30 points in Commercial sabotage, frequent success in these missions might grant you 36 points instead-without needing to increase your % allocation). Success in missions also gives XP's for advancing the average 'level' of your spies which, in turn, boosts the number of IP's you get per spy unit.

4) Certain Small Wonders and improvements also boost IP's, give bonuses in certain mission types and/or increases the improvement rate of your spies.

The second model is much the same as the first, except that instead of building spies, you merely 'convert' a part of your population into spies/agents (much as you do with entertainers and tax collectors). Again, though, how many IP's each agent gives you depends on their tech level and 'experience'.

Anyway, hope that makes sense.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Ranger99]

THAT is good way to do it, the spies and all, the system is pretty good too, I still like running COS's and getting intercpts and defectors in and out of forign nations

 

[Winston]

@ Graadiapolistan: Thanks man, glad you approve - with regard to new Civs emerging that seems quite workable as one of three outcomes - the other two would be that it reverts back to the original Civ (if taken from another Civ) or it slips under your control (as what happens already).

@ Aussie_Lurker: Sounds good to me, a Foriegn Affairs budget (with boosts from specialists in cities, and city improvements/small wonders and maybe optional techs) seems like a very workable system - and by making people choose between a range of very useful options, this would be an excellent way to create a whole new strategic depth to the game.

International reputation and cultural transmission (points II and IV above) could also tie into trade revenue. I know its going a bit off topic so I will be brief - In a similar way to Right of Passage, Mutual Protection Pact etc where two Civs simply sign an agreement to instigate a new diplomatic status; the same could be extended to trade rights i.e. as well as selling luxury A or strategic resource B; Civs simply agree to trade rights - which creates trade income for both Civs. This income can be further augmented through the foriegn affairs budget, which reflects the efforts of diplomats to promote trade and tourism for the mother country.

This would force Civs to make tough choices as to what foriegn activities they want to invest in. The Foriegn Affairs budget could branch out to be a detailed, but user friendly strategic element that would fill a gaping hole in current Civ gameplay.

 

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Smear Campaign

Spies plant/expose embarressing secrets within the leadership of a rival regarding domestic policies/ shady business transactions/ personal lives etc - this has the effect of creating a scandal that causes domestic unhappiness and international rep hits

Would you be able to select what kind of smear campaign to use?
e. g. What kind of rumor should we spread about Chancellor Bismarck, Sire?
O Personal life
O Business transactions
O Domestic policy

Maybe different kinds of rumors would have different effects?