Beyond Earth player playing Civ V for the first time.

[Galgus]

They can do, assuming spawn positions.

Just not for people that comfortably beat Soyuz or Apollo, I'd imagine. Bearing in mind that at those levels the AI gets such insane anti-Alien bonuses they tend to clear nests for you, making them even less of a concern.

No they can't, they never try to attack cities in a remotely coordinated even if you don't build a fence.

At very most they are a speed bump to expansion - if a ton of them spawned near you.

 

[oldag07]

They should have an evolution mode, making aliens much more difficult at the end rather than at the beginning.

 

[Gorbles]

I never said they acted in a coordinated manner, Galgus. I'm not sure where you pulled that from.

 

[Galgus]

I never said they acted in a coordinated manner, Galgus. I'm not sure where you pulled that from.

They would need to act in a coordinated manner to force a reload, which was the argument.

An expansion speed bump is a minor inconvenience, not a reload - unless the player outright refuses to build an army I suppose.

 

[Gorbles]

Sorry, but I disagree. Also, preventing effective expansion can ruin planned strategies, thus having knock-on effects. As I said, competency and difficulty level have an impact here.

A lot of observational bias affects analysing this, sadly. Maybe I'm the only player who regularly ends up getting homicidal aliens that attack most of my Explorers on sight Then again, I've had more peaceful games as well.

 

[Ryika]

On most starting positions Aliens will not be a problem, neither an experienced player nor a new player as long as the new player has already understood that he's fine if he just "leaves them alone".

On a few starting positions Aliens can be a real annoyance for an experienced player and - I'd assume - probably be an impenetrable wall for new players. But those cases are rare.

That "On Apollo the AI clears all the nests!"-logic is fine for Civ5, but it doesn't really work in Beyond Earth, as the AI will usually not run around the map and clear nests other than in their direct proximity and even then it's rather bad at clearing aliens on Apollo, because their bonus-strength isn't enough to clear already established nests with a lot of aliens - and on Apollo Aliens also have increased spawn. Using Mod Buddy I've seen the AI sacrifice whole armies into wild areas with a lot of rough terrain and constant respawn.

But if your explorers constantly die to Aliens, then you should probably be more careful and not just randomly run into the proximity of their nests.

 

[Westwall]

But if your explorers constantly die to Aliens, then you should probably be more careful and not just randomly run into the proximity of their nests.

Yeah this. The mechanics are so transparent that it's mind-numbingly easy to avoid alien aggression until you can just one shot them with more advanced units. The occasions when they will attack you without being near their nests and without provocation are too few and far between for them to be considered anything other than a minor inconvenience.

 

[Gorbles]

Sure, I agree that it's easy in theory, but in actuality I find them jumping me half of the time. Admittedly I do have Frenzied Aliens on by default.

 

[Galgus]

Sorry, but I disagree. Also, preventing effective expansion can ruin planned strategies, thus having knock-on effects. As I said, competency and difficulty level have an impact here.

A lot of observational bias affects analysing this, sadly. Maybe I'm the only player who regularly ends up getting homicidal aliens that attack most of my Explorers on sight Then again, I've had more peaceful games as well.

I hold that it is only so drastic for players refusing to build an army.

 

[Kutuzov]

Keep in mind that the land aliens behave like this, not the sea aliens.

What Firaxis probably should have done (and maybe they could do it in this expansion) is to set the aggression of aliens rather than have them be passively neutral until you attack them. Something like:

Harmless critters - current setting

Precarious predators - aliens will attack wounded units if they have an opportunity, similar to what sea aliens do now, in taking some opportunities. Aliens will also show prolonged aggression if an isolated alien is attacked, returns to other aliens and then they show temporary aggression.

Aggravated Aliens - Aliens will take further opportunities to attack units if they're isolated in general. 1 little dead bug will set of a war with the aliens. Will launch raids at cities if there is rapid development with workers.


That way, you satisfy the new players, the in-betweeners and the seasoned self-styled pros in the civ community with regard to aliens in CivBE.

Good point about the sea aliens. They are not so friendly and they make exploration across passages of water a bit nerve-wracking. But once I've got a fence or two built, my trade ships don't have to worry about them.

I suggested elsewhere that the aliens present different degrees of danger to the player. I'd like to see them get stat bonuses when they go orange and red, and when red they no longer care about the fences and are just out to kill. Worms remain dangerous until late in the mid-game. They could also introduce some never-seen-before monster that comes out of hiding when the aliens are really, really PO'd like the Harmony Tier 4 monster. (Doh! I've forgotten the name as I haven't gone harmony in a while and I'm at the office just now)

Pre-release they talked a lot about how they could be dangerous if provoked - I remember some comment that Frenzied Aliens could force a reload.

I find them to be quite dangerous in the earlier stages of the game when they are provoked. Don't you? Manticores and Wolf beetles are quite formidable to every unit I can build until around the mid-game. I've found whole continents swarming with aliens in the mid game that are almost unsettle-able until I can bring a large enough army to clear out a safe zone.

And I'm sure there are quite a few folks who have re-loaded a game because they found that there were too many aliens near their starting position. (Not this player though. I stick with it until the bitter end because I love pay-back)

They don't pose any threat later in the game though. But then again, neither did Civ V barbarians.

 

[Galgus]

@Kutuzov

I can into the game trying to kill them, expecting and hoping for a swarm of them to try and tear down my capital - maybe knocking a few AI's out in the process.

Instead I had a relatively uneventful extermination by getting them to run into fortified units.

I might have lost a unit or two in the first game through tactical misplays, but that is a far cry from real danger - particularly since they never really attacked me.

 

[Kutuzov]

@Kutuzov

I can into the game trying to kill them, expecting and hoping for a swarm of them to try and tear down my capital - maybe knocking a few AI's out in the process.

Instead I had a relatively uneventful extermination by getting them to run into fortified units.

I might have lost a unit or two in the first game through tactical misplays, but that is a far cry from real danger - particularly since they never really attacked me.

Fair enough. I wan't thinking in terms of posing a threat to my cities. I think the last time I lost an actual city to barbarians in a Civ game was in Civ IV with Raging Barbarians (My default settings). I've only lost cities to the AI, never mind barbarians in Civ V and BE a couple of times and forgot the threat to my cities. I mean dangerous to my units, explorers, settlers in the early game. They only curtail my ambitions early game much as barbs did in Civ V.

And their attack behaviour is similar to the AI's handling of other factions' units. 'They come on in the same old way and I beat them in the same old way.' If they improve the AI's handling of 1UPT, aliens will pose more of a threat too.

 

[Halbbruder]

But now that there are sea nests in CivBERT, hopefully this does not mean the sea aliens in CivBERT will behave like land aliens now. Hopefully the alien AI will change, but again it seems easier said than done and I am no expert on coding AI.

In Civ IV on my first game, I lost my capital to barbs and I don't attribute that to the dangerous nature of barbs, I attribute that to the flawed luck-based combat system that's been around since SMAC, and only SMAC has properly honed it to be less luck-based with modifiers and reactor levels.

The general rule on aliens is that they have to be relevant enough to be a threat to expansion and mid-game but they should not inhibit new players from learning the game too much. If aliens are supposed to scale into late game, then add combat bonuses depending on their mood, with red being something like a 50% combat bonus and aliens gaining HP on kill like jaguar warriors and janissaries.

 

[Galgus]

Accommodating new players shouldn't prevent making properly impactful and dangerous Aliens.

They could simply be scaled down on lower difficulties.

I still think that the true potential with Aliens is to be a sort of soft warmongering mechanic, where an indirect warmonger forces other colonies to devote resources to self-defense.

Secondarily the bonuses for capturing nests and fighting Aliens could be improved with more danger.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Accommodating new players shouldn't prevent making properly impactful and dangerous Aliens.

They could simply be scaled down on lower difficulties.

Or just scale with the progress of the player. It makes sense lore-wise and mechanically: the player with the highest technology and largest empire will have the largest ecological footprint. Hence, they get attacked more - because being in the lead means you're an ecological menace (unless you try to mitigate that by going Harmony).

 

[Acken]

Never have found them much different than barbarrians. I'm always skeptical when I hear the develppers say they aren't. Truly the real difference is only their opinion metter, allowing you to ignore them, everything else is rather the same.
Would be great if you had to fight off waves of them or risk losing a city.

 

[Ryika]

Well, I think there are some defining differences, but I'm not really sure if they're "good" differences.

Barbarians with their "one after the other"-mechanics are interesting because they... well, give you a very different experience from what later combat against AIs looks like. Aliens - if you ever have to deal with them - feel very similar to invading a neighbor as they'll always act as an "army". I really prefer barbarians mechanically as they keep you on your toes when the game would be rather boring otherwise and fade away for "real" combat later on.

 

[oldag07]

Just beat my first Civ V game I started the thread with. I edited the OP to have this.
Additional thoughts:
-The requirement to build certain buildings in all of your cities before building a wonder, is a interesting mechanic. It certainly limits "wide" play and late expansion.
-The late game building rush is a lot easier in CIV V. Considering the fact that the tech tree is more linear. It adds a level of complexity to BE to have a purity, supremacy, and a harmony version of a factory (LEV plant, bioglass furnaces, and microbial mines). And really, you can't build all of them in all but your oldest of cities. A way to sort the list of buildings by production, health, or energy when selecting buildings might be very helpful in BE.
-Espionage seems a lot easier to use in CIV V then BE. And the steal energy task is way too OP in Beyond Earth.
-Again the game seems like it has "less". Having title screens that show up when booting the game again is a good touch. That landing on the planet picture is good, but it would be good to mix it up like CIV V.
-As with the map for the reply, not sure why the non graph ratings menu was cut out of this game.
-Removing work boats and combining it with the workers was a smart move in BE. Same could be said with combining the scout with the archaeologist. It is also good that both aren't single use, because that was annoying in CIV V
-The victory condition complains in BE are true. It is nice that you can win via culture, science, diplomacy or conquest in BE. I must admit, in BE it is a lot easier to keep track of victory conditions, and stop your opponents from accomplishing them.
-Diversity of aircraft is so much better. (Bombers and fighters)

 

[Galgus]

@oldag07

Congratulations on the win!

I'd recommend trying out some mods when you feel confident with the base game.
___________________________

Those would be the National Wonders, which don't have the World Wonder one-of rul across the globe.

They are a good way to reign in wide play, though they wouldn't work well on a tech web without creating clear beelines.
_____________________

Fully agreed on Work Boats, though I think the Archaeologist is the way it is to slow down how building players can snatch up all the relics in Civ 5.

 

[oldag07]

I guess there is one more complaint about CIV V vs Beyond Earth. It is kind of annoying that I was going for a domination victory, but I won by a cultural victory. It might be a little more difficult to do that if I was playing something higher than chieftain. BE really forces you to commit to one victory type. It makes a much higher learning curve for new players, but it is also much more challenging and as such more satisfying when you win.