Beyond The Sword

I will think that cottages first is better as well since we don't have any coastal sites yet anyway.
 
Ok pottery it is then :)



IHT (45)
EE on Asoka, remove obsolete signs from map, slider to zero, move warrior and worker.

T1 (46)
henge bidl (!), slider to 100% (AH in 2 turns), Uruk grows, 1 :mad:

T3 (48)
AH comes in, chop comes in, barbs come in (not! :p), Pottery selected... Oh and:



Well, that's why AH is a much better stopping point than GW :lol:

I've mapped out the land around there completely and the red dot is my suggestion.

Pros:
- leaves pigs for a second city
- max land grab while sealing off Asoka
- also slows down Alex
- removes one jungle and doesn't touch the forests
- connectable to the capital with 2 roads

Cons:
- 1 tile off the coast
- still 5 jungle tiles in BFC

Other notes:
- Settling hillside while getting the corn isn't possible. Settling on a hill would yield the corn to Asoka
- should be a fairly balanced early-game production site with a few forests to speed up basic infra
- settler would have to survive just 2 turns of wilderness. Also, supplying workers will be risk-free


Settler due in 5. Slider to zero. I'll continue a few more...

T4 (49)
Alex founds Corinth somewhere. Worker moves towards cows.

T6 (51)
Worker in Eridu done. Starting a warrior, worker goes towards pigs. Slider to 100%.

T7 (52)
Somehow, Asoka has established a TR with us. He must've teched sailing, we don't get commerce from TRs. He has 2 clams and 3 corns so his GP rate should be massive! Nothing we can give him yet though.

T8 (53)
Settler done, Worker queued up. Pottery due in 8 at current rate with 24g (-3gpt) in the bank.


---


I'm stopping here, I could continue after some discussion if you want.

- We have 3/2 of Alex' land and Asoka has even less. Since they have 3 cities compared to our 2, it's likely that all their cities are coastal. We're CRE and neither of them is though...

- Main discussion point: Where to settle? I gave my opinion above with arguments. Whaddya guys think?

- Second item of discussion: What to build next in Uruk? We won't want to grow since we're at :)-cap so it'll probably either be settler or worker. Since we don't have an abundance of gold, particularly well-mapped territory, not plenty of workers, no rush to seal off land, I'd go with a third worker and send the first one down to the new city after the cows are done (the second worker is the one at Eridu).

- Then there's the same question again: What to tech next...? I'm not particularly into writing for libraries in an EE game but since we'll run some (small) percentage science we should probably do that. [In one of my first ever SGs, the first one hosted by ungy, we ran a pure EE and I had the misfortune to build a LIBRARY... boy, that didn't go down well with the boss hehe, I didn't forget that :lol: It was a fantastic game though, with some of the best players on the forums. Well worth a look, link in my sig.]
 

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We are creative which really helps our game. Plus, our two cities don't have overlapping borders so 5 turns after settling city 2, we should have 42 tiles whilst an AI will have a maximum of 39 tiles with 3 cities if they are not CRE and there is NO overlap with existing borders. Assuming a three tile share with the inner ring for both cities, Alex would have a minimum of 33 tiles.

The red city site looks great! However, the ONLY qualm I have is that Alex WILL come for us (almost certainly). It's not particularly easy to get him to Friendly and he declares on Pleased if I remember correctly. So we will want our border cities to be very strongly defended if he gets into WHEOOH mode.

Tech wise, I think
Pottery->Fishing->Writing->Alpha seems good
Obviously, we want Ziggurat's ASAP but we can steal Myst, Med/Poly and maybe even PH since Asoka will definitely have at least two of them!
 
Nice turnset Mystyfly! :goodjob: Glad we have horsies! :)

The easy things first:
- Definitely worker next.
- Still think Pottery -> Writing should be next. We can open borders and road into Asoka for TRs and we will need it on the way to Alpha for spies.

As for second city, being one off coast is not an issue as we won't need to or want to work empty coast for a long time, if ever. I am worried about unhealthiness though. It doesn't have freshwater and will have lots of jungles to start with. But whatever seals off Asoka best is fine with me.

On the other hand, what about a city 1 West of the Horse on the Plains hill? We can settle a city one North of the Pigs to get the corn and help cap's cottages. Though, now that I think about it, that's probably not good as investment in multiple settlers aside, that may not seal Asoka off. :confused:
 
Revent said:
The red city site looks great! However, the ONLY qualm I have is that Alex WILL come for us (almost certainly). It's not particularly easy to get him to Friendly and he declares on Pleased if I remember correctly. So we will want our border cities to be very strongly defended if he gets into WHEOOH mode.
I'm not worried about him coming after us. We'll take care of him.

Tech wise, I think
Pottery->Fishing->Writing->Alpha seems good
Surely, you're joking...? I kept saying, I would tech fishing after AH because 1) we'll want it soon anyway and 2) it gives a discount on pottery. Going Pottery > Fishing is silly.

Smilingrogue said:
- Still think Pottery -> Writing should be next. We can open borders and road into Asoka for TRs and we will need it on the way to Alpha for spies.
Sounds ok. Not sure we should spent worker turns to road towards asoka yet but we'll have to do that, eventually.

On the other hand, what about a city 1 West of the Horse on the Plains hill? We can settle a city one North of the Pigs to get the corn and help cap's cottages. Though, now that I think about it, that's probably not good as investment in multiple settlers aside, that may not seal Asoka off.
That city would be one that leaves the corn to asoka. I'd rather not let him have it. With my red-dot-city, we can settle a second with the pigs in the area. BFC-overlap is a good thing.



Should I play some more turns or do you want to continue, Revent? Either is fine by me.
 
Oops, silly me. You're right!! :lol: That was just stupid of me :$

Feel free to play until you're comfortable :)
 
edit: Don't have time to play tonight, earliest would be in ~16hrs. If nobody picked it up by then, I'll go ahead but I'd be happy if someone else picks it up, next turns are pretty straightforward.
 
Alright then.

IHT (53)
Move Settler towards red dot

2 (55) (IBT)
Barb warrior appeared near the western exploring warrior, I moved onto a jungle hill and kill the barb while defending. Warrior down to 1.7 health.

3 (56)
Kish founded (worker). The worker that travelled from Uruk starts on the horses. Last turn, the worker at Eridu finished the pasture on the pigs and moved onto the gold hill.



4 (57)
Uruk Worker > rax. Worker sent to mine a riverside grass hill.

6 (59)
Had to dial research to 0% last turn. This turn I had to put research to 70% to finish Pottery in 1t and also had to do some suboptimal MM. Need Pottery next turn as Eridu will finish it's MP-warrior and should start on the granary. That 1 Commerce that was missing was the one lost to non-binary research... ;)



7 (60)
Switch Uruk to granary, Eridu starts on it's as well. Eridu's MP warrior is sent east to map out a few more tiles, he isn't needed yet anyway.

8 (61)
Gold hooked up, Kish borders expanded, worker ready to start on farming the corn.

9 (62) IBT
Killed a barb archer and warrior by the two warriors exploring the south. Would be great if we could get a 10xp warrior for HE.

11 (64) IBT
Killed another barb warrior. Discovered a greek settling party last turn, the other warrior follows it to find where Alex settles.

12 (65)
Alex settles in a silly spot (as expected). He's really been dealt a crappy card with that map.
Asoka has a settler moving in on the crabs site.



Note how the MP warrior returns in time so that Eridu won't go :mad:.


---


I'll stop here. I tentatively dotmapped the south (not enough info on the north). Alex' city is marked with a light-blue dot.



I suggest settling green dot next (unless we find something else to the west worth settling). I doubt Alex will move for yellow dot soon.

We have some cash and with gold we're above 50%. As a rule of thumb, I wait until I have the cash to run 100% for n-1 turns where n is the amount of turns it takes to complete the tech. We could still decide against writing (though I don't encourage that).

There's a barb warrior who'll probably attack one of our warriors (the eastern one) in the next ibt. We're on a jungle hill. Afterwards, I thought he should move to the hill NW of pigs to find out about seafood, then fogbust in the jungle.

The other warrior should continue to scout west.
 

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Great play Myst!! :D
Yellow dot will be a great city and yes, I very much doubt Alex will be going for it any time soon. Agreed on green dot. It's a great city and will block Alex.

I'll get to this tomorrow afternoon or later tonight :)
 
Nice turn set, Mystyfly! :)

I am afraid Alex will take the Yellow spot very soon. I think the only reason he settled his third city where he did is because it has Iron. (Un-forested grassland tile surrounded by Jungle) The natural thing for him to do will be push North and that Corn site looks juicy.

I am not sure the Green dot is in the best place. It takes away a grassland hill, while giving no bonus city tile yields and picks up several empty water tiles. I would suggest moving that city 1 SE. This will allow us to have both Horse and Corn available right from get-go, fresh water and allow us to compete for the Calendar resources with Alex. This will increase friction with him, but I don't think any of us believe we can buddy up with Alex anytime soon, anyway. :lol:

Hate seeing Asoka pushing onto the Northern Coast at a double sea-food spot. But I guess we are in a tight space and will lose some ground to both the AIs. :(

Why is Eridu's worker building a road there? Is he just laying one turn of road between moves to another tile?
 
I am afraid Alex will take the Yellow spot very soon. I think the only reason he settled his third city where he did is because it has Iron. (Un-forested grassland tile surrounded by Jungle) The natural thing for him to do will be push North and that Corn site looks juicy.
So would you settle yellow dot next?

I am not sure the Green dot is in the best place. It takes away a grassland hill, while giving no bonus city tile yields and picks up several empty water tiles. I would suggest moving that city 1 SE. This will allow us to have both Horse and Corn available right from get-go, fresh water and allow us to compete for the Calendar resources with Alex. This will increase friction with him, but I don't think any of us believe we can buddy up with Alex anytime soon, anyway. :lol:
1SE means the city won't be coastal. That is a big -ve. It'll have 4 properly dead tiles, compared to those coastal tiles. We won't get those calendar resources off Alex anyway, it'd be in his inner ring and he settled there way earlier than we could. I'm not convinced of settling SE.

Hate seeing Asoka pushing onto the Northern Coast at a double sea-food spot. But I guess we are in a tight space and will lose some ground to both the AIs. :(
Well that was to be expected. You can't have it all. I think, however, that it looks like Asoka is about to settle (this or next IBT) and only go for the crabs so we can still get a city with clams.

Why is Eridu's worker building a road there? Is he just laying one turn of road between moves to another tile?
Roading towards the capital. With no irrigated grass tiles there's nothing really worth improving, we should whip some there anyway. Make sure we stay >= pop 2 though. Plus, Uruk would really benefit from the +1 :) from gold (note that I hooked that up already).

I don't 100% remember what I planned with the workers down at Kish, but something like moving one to the 4th city soonish and have the other road the tiles W (horses) and WW of Kish to connect it to Uruk.
 
So would you settle yellow dot next?

I am not sure. I want to do too much all at once! :lol: On one hand, I want to take away the corn in yellow dot away from Alex. On the other, I want to push West and shut him in from what appears to be a peninsula there. That is why I am throwing ideas out there hoping you or Revent will help me solidify my thinking and priorities. (Hint, hint! ;))

1SE means the city won't be coastal. That is a big -ve. It'll have 4 properly dead tiles, compared to those coastal tiles. We won't get those calendar resources off Alex anyway, it'd be in his inner ring and he settled there way earlier than we could. I'm not convinced of settling SE.
I am not big on settling on the coast for the sake of settling on the coast. That city doesn't have sea-food. The trade routes don't matter as due the weird way they work, we should get trade just by sharing any water tiles within our Civ's boundaries. That fresh water lake should by itself give us trade with any city that has it in its culture boundaries. Being on coastal allows us to build lighthouse. But this only turns all those tiles food neutral. Harbours are nice, but nothing spectacular. I am not saying settling there is a bad move. My point is that settling on the coast becomes a wash without any great advantage, while losing fresh water for health.

Well that was to be expected. You can't have it all. I think, however, that it looks like Asoka is about to settle (this or next IBT) and only go for the crabs so we can still get a city with clams.
Yup, I think he will settle right where he is, too. Doesn't mean I can't whine about it. :p (This land is mine! Mine!!)


Roading towards the capital. With no irrigated grass tiles there's nothing really worth improving, we should whip some there anyway. Make sure we stay >= pop 2 though. Plus, Uruk would really benefit from the +1 :) from gold (note that I hooked that up already).
Ah...ok. I just wasn't sure what the plan for the worker was. :)

I don't 100% remember what I planned with the workers down at Kish, but something like moving one to the 4th city soonish and have the other road the tiles W (horses) and WW of Kish to connect it to Uruk.
That sounds good to me.
 
@Myst: Weren't you gonna go Fishing->Pottery?
Anyway, I think Writing->Fishing seems right for now. Do we direct research Alpha? or do the trade bait stuff and go Aesthetics?

Rough plan:
Revolt to slavery right away.
Whip barracks into Settler (get max overflow since 29/50 hammers have been invested in the barracks)
Tech Fishing->Writing or Writing->Fishing.
Settler will settle green spot.
Worker 2: Road 1SW and 1S2W.
Worker 3: Road Mined hill
Settler 2 (if turnset lasts that long): Settle spot North of gold
Green City: Build a workboat (whip it)
North City: Workboat whip
Capital:Rax->Settler->(possibly a filler to let city grow to happy cap)->Worker->Worker
 
I am not sure. I want to do too much all at once! On one hand, I want to take away the corn in yellow dot away from Alex. On the other, I want to push West and shut him in from what appears to be a peninsula there. That is why I am throwing ideas out there hoping you or Revent will help me solidify my thinking and priorities. (Hint, hint! )
Well, I did, didn't I? ;) It's the risk/reward thing again (like with the oracle): Going Yellow first means we might end up with yellow as well as green and probably more cities but we may also be shut off ourselves, ending up with only a - in all honesty - pretty bad city at yellow dot. With green spot first we're guaranteed a great city (if we lose the next spot we go for this discussion is moot anyway so let's not assume that ;)) with the (low) chance to extend our land grab. Please keep in mind that we're not particularly stable economywise, we can't spawn cities as we please. With only 1 gold, zero coastal cities, zero trade routes, we might end up in a deep hole... Zigs or not.

I am not big on settling on the coast for the sake of settling on the coast. That city doesn't have sea-food. The trade routes don't matter as due the weird way they work, we should get trade just by sharing any water tiles within our Civ's boundaries. That fresh water lake should by itself give us trade with any city that has it in its culture boundaries. Being on coastal allows us to build lighthouse. But this only turns all those tiles food neutral. Harbours are nice, but nothing spectacular. I am not saying settling there is a bad move. My point is that settling on the coast becomes a wash without any great advantage, while losing fresh water for health.
Health benefit from fresh water is neutralized by harbours. But yeah, settling coastal is a lot for the sake of being coastal. We'll want a few harbours with decent production (what the northern cities won't provide) to get some galleons out for example. We'll also want a scouting WB very soon, to ensure we find any islands connected by coast (they have big TR boosts and we might find more AIs).
 
I am not sure. I want to do too much all at once! :lol: On one hand, I want to take away the corn in yellow dot away from Alex. On the other, I want to push West and shut him in from what appears to be a peninsula there. That is why I am throwing ideas out there hoping you or Revent will help me solidify my thinking and priorities. (Hint, hint! ;))
Look at the SGOTM threads to get an idea of how to prioritise things :) It's helped my game quite a bit!
I do agree with green though because it's coastal, so working even the lake tiles is good with a lighthouse (3F2C).
Settling SW WILL block Alex off but maintenance is quite bad on Imm (although not as bad as Deity!) and this city wouldn't be contributing to us for a long time.

I am not big on settling on the coast for the sake of settling on the coast. That city doesn't have sea-food. The trade routes don't matter as due the weird way they work, we should get trade just by sharing any water tiles within our Civ's boundaries. That fresh water lake should by itself give us trade with any city that has it in its culture boundaries. Being on coastal allows us to build lighthouse. But this only turns all those tiles food neutral. Harbours are nice, but nothing spectacular. I am not saying settling there is a bad move. My point is that settling on the coast becomes a wash without any great advantage, while losing fresh water for health.
One off coast is still not preferable most of the times. Settling on the hill will also provide a defensive bonus if Alex decides to attack us there.
 
X-post with Revent.


Revent said:
@Myst: Weren't you gonna go Fishing->Pottery?
Anyway, I think Writing->Fishing seems right for now. Do we direct research Alpha? or do the trade bait stuff and go Aesthetics?
You guys wanted to tech pottery last, and after that we decided on writing so that's what I went for. I'm fine with going fishing now (benefit of binary research hehe) though I still find it silly :p An advantage of sticking to writing is that we have another non-upkeep item to build in our cities...

I'd say we tech alpha ourselves. Not sure we'll be able to trade for it too soon (though we probably won't need to). I'd say we HAVE to tech IW after the basic techs (up to writing) are done.




@Revent: Plan sounds good, but I don't think you should continue long after the next city is settled. At least for a quick update, you can continue again though. I'm not sold on that whip. If the rax indeed is at 29/50 then it's pretty bad. Early in the game, whips should always be for 2pop (excluding monuments or WBs in new cities) because of low :)-cap. If you want to do a 1-pop-whip I'd spend more time on pop5 and whip the rax only shortly before it's done.

If you do whip, make sure to regrow uruk instantly (after the overflow went into the settler) on a warrior or something.

RE worker MM: Come to think of it, it'd probably make sense to move the one on the corn towards Uruk, chop another forest for the settler and hook up the cows. We have a TR with Asoka and probably can gift it to him. That way the worker is busy until the settler is done and the 2 can go set up green dot.
 
Another X-post hehe ;)

Seems we're sold on green then (in favour of yellow), right? Another option is to move green 1E though we'd also have to move pink spot.
 
X-post with Revent.



You guys wanted to tech pottery last, and after that we decided on writing so that's what I went for. I'm fine with going fishing now (benefit of binary research hehe) though I still find it silly :p An advantage of sticking to writing is that we have another non-upkeep item to build in our cities...

I'd say we tech alpha ourselves. Not sure we'll be able to trade for it too soon (though we probably won't need to). I'd say we HAVE to tech IW after the basic techs (up to writing) are done.




@Revent: Plan sounds good, but I don't think you should continue long after the next city is settled. At least for a quick update, you can continue again though. I'm not sold on that whip. If the rax indeed is at 29/50 then it's pretty bad. Early in the game, whips should always be for 2pop (excluding monuments or WBs in new cities) because of low :)-cap. If you want to do a 1-pop-whip I'd spend more time on pop5 and whip the rax only shortly before it's done.

If you do whip, make sure to regrow uruk instantly (after the overflow went into the settler) on a warrior or something.

RE worker MM: Come to think of it, it'd probably make sense to move the one on the corn towards Uruk, chop another forest for the settler and hook up the cows. We have a TR with Asoka and probably can gift it to him. That way the worker is busy until the settler is done and the 2 can go set up green dot.

Yeah, was definitely gonna stop and post after settling green.

Oops! For some reason I was reading it was 60 hammers for a rax :$ In that case, plan changes. :p I'll improvise with slavery if that's cool with you guys :)

Anyway, I'm thinking, we do want PH sooner or later and yeah, I actually forgot that fishing is a preq for Pottery (I was in the mindset it was TW only!). Writing does make sense so I'll go for that followed by fishing. However, we do want workboats to explore as soon as possible to see if we can get into contact with any other AI or have to wait to optics! If it's to optics, I think we may want to let Asoka and Alex grab SOME land at least so that we don't fall back due to our slider limit :lol:

I'll play if/when I get a green light from smilingrogue as well :)
 
Another X-post hehe ;)

Seems we're sold on green then (in favour of yellow), right? Another option is to move green 1E though we'd also have to move pink spot.

I think green is good as it is.
imo on this map, food>>hammers by a margin even in late game.

I fear this map will lead itself to Rifling and drafting. :) (or even Nukes :lol: )
 
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