Beyond The Sword

[mystyfly]

Asoka is after us, pretty damn sure. He is rallying units at Vijay (currently 4 axes + spear). His WHEOOH is very uncomfortable but makes the whole thing a lot more fun It also confirms that he has no more land to the east. That means he'll be a crappy target to leech off.

To be able to sue for peace in a decent amount of time we'll need to capture one of his cities. I'd suggest going for pata, as Vijay will suck because Asoka will control its 2 food sources. Since Alex is already moving for the barb city (1 spear + a few archers watching it), I suggest moving 1 vult to eridu and 1 to kish each. All the other vults should try and capture the barb city. As soon as Asoka declares (even before), we'll see which city he targets and we can move the 2nd vult to the targeted city. This requires the workers to build a highway between the 2. We'll be building vults in these cities and can whip more so we should have AT LEAST 3 vults as soon as asoka reaches the city which will suffice (he doesn't have siege).

After his first wave is absorbed and the barb city captures, we can change to the attack ourselves.

Smilingrogue, how many turns did you play?

What do you guys want to do with our GSpy? No way infiltration would be ANY use to us, settle or SY?


"A few" comments:

- Maybe a few more warriors for MP police would've been nice instead of workers but no biggie.

- Worker/city improvement looks better, though I wouldn't chop anymore tiles in Uruk's BFC pre-mathematics. Though I'd connect Kish before pasturing the pigs that we can't work yet anyway.

- Let's gift those pigs and maybe even marble to Alex for +ves

- MM: Why isn't Uruk working the iron mine? We desperately need vults, let's focus on hammers.

- Fishing would be, imo, an exception to tech before libraries are done. Since we're already waiting on Uruk, let's switch to fishing once the library's done. Turns out my preferred Fishing > Pottery would've been nice after all

- In hindsight, with the map as it is now, it'd have been better to settle E of iron and settle every 3 tiles. Now, I'm not really sure how to settle though we don't have to decide on that just yet. We don't have the infra to settle more cities, especially if/when we capture the barb city.

 

[Smilingrogue]

To be able to sue for peace in a decent amount of time we'll need to capture one of his cities. I'd suggest going for pata, as Vijay will suck because Asoka will control its 2 food sources. Since Alex is already moving for the barb city (1 spear + a few archers watching it), I suggest moving 1 vult to eridu and 1 to kish each. All the other vults should try and capture the barb city. As soon as Asoka declares (even before), we'll see which city he targets and we can move the 2nd vult to the targeted city. This requires the workers to build a highway between the 2. We'll be building vults in these cities and can whip more so we should have AT LEAST 3 vults as soon as asoka reaches the city which will suffice (he doesn't have siege).

We need defence up at Ur as well. It is newly settled and doesn't even have roads. I think Asoka's Axe can get there in four turns.

After his first wave is absorbed and the barb city captures, we can change to the attack ourselves.

I am guessing we have ten turns (usual AI war-prep time) till he attacks. Maybe less if the AI decides the stack it has gathered is enough to capture Kish. We will need to whip and chop Vultures, build roads and the defence needs to wait for the attack in cities or on defensible tiles as Vults vs. Axes favours axes on open ground, IIRC.

Our best site to pump vultures needs Iron connected. That's going to take two more turns. We can then chop three axes in quick succession. (Wouldn't want to whip Kish as its food is meh) Throw a fourth in from overflow and working hammer tiles. That's six turns. I think we will have a stack of about seven Vultures on hand to counter Asoka's attack by the time he hits.

Eridu should build and chop Vultures to defend Ur, itself and contribute what it can to the main vulture stack. That means we won't be able to take the barb city while repelling Asoka unless we whip and chop Vultures in the capital. I don't like the idea of whipping Uruk unless we absolutely have to. Might have to let the barb city go and just rush Asoka with a late Vulture zerg rush.

Smilingrogue, how many turns did you play?

Inherited turn was 80 and stopped on turn 89 as soon as I saw the red-fist. So, 9 turns?

What do you guys want to do with our GSpy? No way infiltration would be ANY use to us, settle or SY?

My preference would be to settle him. We are not going to be generating enough EPs from Uruk to justify SY. Second GS should build a SY. On the other hand, should we decided to just outright kill Asoka, I vote to infiltrate him for knocking down defences. (Need Alpha first though.)

"A few" comments:

- Maybe a few more warriors for MP police would've been nice instead of workers but no biggie.

I figured we are going to be paying maintenance on warriors that aren't actually needed. (We are already paying for one troop. Vultures will do fine as MP once they are done with the barb city as we are bound to have some left over.

- Worker/city improvement looks better, though I wouldn't chop anymore tiles in Uruk's BFC pre-mathematics. Though I'd connect Kish before pasturing the pigs that we can't work yet anyway.

I pastured the pigs as I would like to trade them away to Asoka/Alex/Monty since we have three copies of it. Need to hook up the one in Eridu, but health's not a biggie right now. As for the chop, I am ok with saving forests. But I thought that particular tile would be more useful as a cottage now than 10 extra hammers later. Uruk certainly doesn't lack hammers now that it has Iron too.

- Let's gift those pigs and maybe even marble to Alex for +ves

Call me crazy, but I want Parthenon. I would like to have some boost to GSpy generation. Though, Asoka declaring on us and us not having a way to steal Polytheism yet throws a wrench in those plans. Still, would rather not trade away Marble.

- MM: Why isn't Uruk working the iron mine? We desperately need vults, let's focus on hammers.

Uruk isn't working the mine because I didn't think working that over the cows made sense before. Now that Asoka is in WHEOOHRN, that changes things, but the save I posted is immediately after a new turn started and no MM was done to account for Asoka's sudden growing of a spine.

- Fishing would be, imo, an exception to tech before libraries are done. Since we're already waiting on Uruk, let's switch to fishing once the library's done. Turns out my preferred Fishing > Pottery would've been nice after all

I had rather straight tech Alpha by banking gold and get some spies out. (This was a major mistake I made the first time I tried EE, I built spies far too late.) But if we want to de-tour to fishing, that's fine. Fishing will only take two turns with the gold we have banked already.

- In hindsight, with the map as it is now, it'd have been better to settle E of iron and settle every 3 tiles. Now, I'm not really sure how to settle though we don't have to decide on that just yet. We don't have the infra to settle more cities, especially if/when we capture the barb city.

That was where I proposed to settle Ur initially. But the current city is not bad. It will be great after we can spread irrigation. I desperately want to steal CoL off Asoka for running specialists there.

 

[mystyfly]

We need defence up at Ur as well. It is newly settled and doesn't even have roads. I think Asoka's Axe can get there in four turns.

I think he'll only attack one city. He is retreating the axes from up north.

Inherited turn was 80 and stopped on turn 89 as soon as I saw the red-fist. So, 9 turns?

Oh ok. Wanna continue some more?

My preference would be to settle him. We are not going to be generating enough EPs from Uruk to justify SY. Second GS should build a SY. On the other hand, should we decided to just outright kill Asoka, I vote to infiltrate him for knocking down defences. (Need Alpha first though.)

Settling is fine. Infiltration for revolts? You must be kidding

Uruk isn't working the mine because I didn't think working that over the cows made sense before. Now that Asoka is in WHEOOHRN, that changes things, but the save I posted is immediately after a new turn started and no MM was done to account for Asoka's sudden growing of a spine.

Especially early in the game, Food and hammers >> commerce. Better work 2f/4h than a 2f/2c cottage.

I had rather straight tech Alpha by banking gold and get some spies out. (This was a major mistake I made the first time I tried EE, I built spies far too late.) But if we want to de-tour to fishing, that's fine. Fishing will only take two turns with the gold we have banked already.

Fishing is essential to make our most recent city useful. Otherwise we could've saved the maintenance and not yet settled.

That was where I proposed to settle Ur initially. But the current city is not bad. It will be great after we can spread irrigation. I desperately want to steal CoL off Asoka for running specialists there.

Yeah I know, but we didn't have the full picture of resources up there yet... anyway, I don't think it matters much.



Another look at the game concerning defensive plans:
- Asoka will launch his attacks from vijay

- With the road he have hooking up gold, Eridu could send an emergency-vult up to Ur but I highly doubt it'll ve necessary

- We don't have the cash to tech archery at 100%, which would still take 5ish turns. So it's not an option

- Kish should switch to vults ASAP (not finish worker yet)

- Let's not panic here. Asoka is far from having a decent SOD, by focusing on vults now we should control him easily

- Probably playing safe and letting the barb city be for now is in order. Keep in mind though that the city is on a hill, and alex almost exclusively seems to have those. He'll be tough to crack I think


Smilingrogue, what do you think, could you play some 5-10 turns more or until Asoka declares?

 

[Revent]

Woo! This game suddenly got a lot more interesting

Can you imagine?!?! We have Monty near us and Alex, but the FIRST AI that starts planning a war is ASOKA? hahahah

Anyway, I think sending one vulture over to take the city if the archer is weakened is a good idea but the rest go to protect our cities or kill him.

 

[Smilingrogue]

On settling vs. infiltration:
I am definitely in favour of settling and SY later. But if we plan to just out right eliminate Asoka, it makes more sense to burn the first GS on him. He has CoL, Writing, either Poly/Med or both of them and Priesthood to unlock our Zigs. In a late Vulture rush blitz, I would favour taking what we can before the techs and stealing opportunity disappears. If we are going to leave him alone for later, settling is definitely more powerful.

Also, I didn't note this in the report, but Monty got to Mathematics. I don't think he traded for Alpha. He is just teching that fast. I am wondering if he has a triple gems start or something on his island.

I am ok with fishing next.

Kish's worker was just a placeholder till it gets Iron. The plan was always to pump Vultures there. We just need to put hammers into the worker once every ten turns to keep it going and we can finish it at our leisure. We will probably finish it after we have taken care of Asoka first.

And no panic about Asoka's declaration. If I had to pick an AI to war amongst the three gentlemen we met so far, I would pick Asoka every day of the week!

I am ok with playing a few more turns, but I want to hear from Revent as well before deciding on that.

Edit : Note to self - Stop taking an eternity to write up walls of text. X-post with revent.

 

[Revent]

O yah, I am in favour of SY. We are soon going to get our EP slider up and research slider down after all!

Play on

 

[Smilingrogue]

With the first GSpy? We are going to generate 7 EP total at breakeven when running espionage slider. Unless I am mistaken, SY makes that 14. Settling gives us 12 static EP from the spy + 4 from palace, without having to mess with the slider. It feels like SY will be more powerful later when we can support a higher slider with currency/Zigs and mature cottages.

 

[Revent]

At 40% we lose 1 gold per turn and get 18 EPoints per turn SY makes that 24 from capital and 6 from other cities meaning 30 in total

 

[mystyfly]

On settling vs. infiltration:
I am definitely in favour of settling and SY later. But if we plan to just out right eliminate Asoka, it makes more sense to burn the first GS on him. He has CoL, Writing, either Poly/Med or both of them and Priesthood to unlock our Zigs. In a late Vulture rush blitz, I would favour taking what we can before the techs and stealing opportunity disappears. If we are going to leave him alone for later, settling is definitely more powerful.

So, you were seriously pondering infiltrating Asoka? I mean, it'd help capture his capital and maybe Unknown Town and we'd get CoL... but that is peanuts, compared what we get over time by settling/SY or even infiltrating Alex.

As to Asoka "in general" (of course it depends on how the war goes) but I see him as a sitting duck, fruit waiting to be plucked. A 4-city empire cannot compete and will fall behind, at latest during the medieval era. We can aquire his land whenever we want then. It does have some advantages to keep him alive like trading (he helps with "We don't want to trade this technology away just yet").

Kish's worker was just a placeholder till it gets Iron. The plan was always to pump Vultures there. We just need to put hammers into the worker once every ten turns to keep it going and we can finish it at our leisure. We will probably finish it after we have taken care of Asoka first.

I know you started it because iron wasn't connected yet, I was merely making sure you'd interrupt the build. Sadly, you're wrong, if we produce the worker for 1t after 9 turns in the queue, the hammers invested aren't safe but will decay anyway. We'll have to finish him then in order to presesrve our hammers. But since this will only be in ~12t, we should be fine on the vulture-front by then

At 40% we lose 1 gold per turn and get 18 EPoints per turn SY makes that 24 from capital and 6 from other cities meaning 30 in total

While you may be right, I don't think we'll be running a high esp slider sometime soon. We'll want to do some backfilling by selfresearch (the whole religion tree until mono or something) and we'll only get to run a high esp slider once we get currency (and the option to build wealth). So I'd rather settle the first GSpy.

Speaking of backfilling; we should tech sailing soon. Also, the WB is PRIORITY at Pink dot (to scout west) and in Ur (to scout east). Since Monty is on another landmass we should get good TRs with him.

 

[Revent]

While you may be right, I don't think we'll be running a high esp slider sometime soon. We'll want to do some backfilling by selfresearch (the whole religion tree until mono or something) and we'll only get to run a high esp slider once we get currency (and the option to build wealth). So I'd rather settle the first GSpy.

Speaking of backfilling; we should tech sailing soon. Also, the WB is PRIORITY at Pink dot (to scout west) and in Ur (to scout east). Since Monty is on another landmass we should get good TRs with him.

I was under the assumption we are researching Alpha now for some reason. But since we are not (phew for now ) yeah, let's not try to delay Alpha for too long

 

[mystyfly]

It's not like I want to avoid alphabet or something, but why are we in a rush to tech it? Why not go fishing-sailing-myst-medi-ph first or something? We need to gather EPs before stealing anyway. And with 3 AIs we should be able to get some more trades which makes stealing big techs more profitable. Especially COL which is low priority once confucianism is founded. But we have nowhere near enough EPs for something like that.

 

[Revent]

Oh I know, but if we just avoid alpha for as long as possible, it does sorta ruin the fun of the variant I'm not in any rush for it though
I do think we should tech to PH first.

 

[Smilingrogue]

I think we should research a lot of fluff ourselves and leave the big ones to the spies. Stuff like archery, early religious techs, etc. are not worth the EP points spent and are certainly not worth the risk of getting a spy caught and having Alex (or more likely Monty in this game) come after us.

But I think we shouldn't delay Alpha too long. We can research back-fill anytime at our leisure. (Not sure how fast that's going to go with the 'slider for science capped at 10% after Alpha' rule ). The reason I want Alpha soon is because spies are going to be a major bottle-neck. They cost the same hammers as Swordsmen, are as reliable as a politician and need to get somewhere and stay there for five turns for the EPs to be more cost-effective than beakers.

But that can wait till we have a handle on Asoka. Should I play a few more turns?

If I am to play, do I chop vultures in Kish? I will stop the worker in Uruk once he is one turn away from chopping that forest away so it can be converted to hammers faster at a later point. Workers will finish roads and I will still connect to Asoka. Commerce is commerce, no matter where we get it and how long we have it for.

I also propose letting Uruk grow to size seven in two turns and whipping away that 1 for a settler to settle the Pigs cottage helper. The OF can go to Vultures, library or anything else and Uruk will then be free to make use of all its hammer-tiles.

Research will run at 80% or whatever is the lowest slider rate we can go with for getting Fishing in two turns. Then it's back to 100% wealth.

 

[mystyfly]

But that can wait till we have a handle on Asoka. Should I play a few more turns?

If I am to play, do I chop vultures in Kish? I will stop the worker in Uruk once he is one turn away from chopping that forest away so it can be converted to hammers faster at a later point. Workers will finish roads and I will still connect to Asoka. Commerce is commerce, no matter where we get it and how long we have it for.

Feel free to chop, but only maybe 1-2 forests in Kish. I wouldn't stop a chopping worker (near Uruk) as it will mean lost worker turns (many, if you move the worker and come back later).

I also propose letting Uruk grow to size seven in two turns and whipping away that 1 for a settler to settle the Pigs cottage helper. The OF can go to Vultures, library or anything else and Uruk will then be free to make use of all its hammer-tiles.

NO! Definitely not. 2 reasons: Our eco isn't stable, we don't breakeven at 50%, are about to enter war and plan on capturing a barb city. Unit upkeep will kick in as well. 2) and more importantly, we don't have the hammers to spare. Uruk must finish the library ASAP then pump vultures. No settlers for now. I'd also let Uruk work the iron mine plus 1-2 mined hills. We'll get our cottages to grow later. That can wait.

Research will run at 80% or whatever is the lowest slider rate we can go with for getting Fishing in two turns. Then it's back to 100% wealth.

That is not necessary. Since we didn't have fishing, Ur started on a granary, and might as well finish it as it'll help it's growth as well. Prioritize the library in Uruk and then turn the slider to 100% to get fishing.

 

[Smilingrogue]

Uruk's about to become unhappy, though. Unless I whip the library now and overflow enough to build about 1 and half Vults. If I do that, the chop will be wasted as it will go to a Vulture that doesn't need it. The only way to stagnate Uruk is to remove the Citizen on Cow and re-assign him to the forested plains hill while dropping cottages in favour of mines. (I hate having to work unimproved tiles, but can't improve that tile without another chop)

As for the extra maintenance, it won't really break us. That new city will be right next to the cap and will start working cottages and have a trade route right away, so it will break even right off the bat. As for crashing our economy, I am not worried about that. We can dig ourselves out of that without too much hassle in EE and pillage gold will keep us going for a while yet.

 

[mystyfly]

I'm more worried on the hammers not spent on vultures. And the low priority of that city. Uruk's unhappiness is avoided with 2pop whips, ie vults w/o any hammers invested. Not optimal but no dealbreaker for me. Also, since we're in warmode, we should work more hills instead of cottages so that slows down growth as well. Definitely work all the resource tiles though. Why don't we need chops in vultures, isn't that what you suggested to do in kish? We definitely can use an extra 20h in vults.

What do you think revent? You're the tie-breaker it seems

 

[Smilingrogue]

Uruk when working all the hammer tiles it has will generate a Vulture every two turns:

Spoiler :

Putting a chop in here seems like a waste of a forest that could be used to speed something else up. (I still want Parthenon! )

I am ok with chopping away the forest on the PH, riverside plains tile and the GH tile in Kish as they open up the tiles underneath for improvements immediately:

Spoiler :

It's also unlikely to build much besides troops, wealth and spies as there's not much point in chopping the plains forests yet.
A farm on that riverside plains tile is the fastest way to spread irrigation to the Corn later by building a grass farm next to it.

More sloppy reporting on my part. While debating if we really have a shot at Parthenon, I noticed Asoka landed the Oracle. He isn't in Hereditary Rule:

Spoiler :

He didn't take CoL with the Oracle, so I am guessing he lacked writing when he got it, so Aesthetics also wasn't taken. So he must have taken Metal Casting with it.

Edit:

What do you think revent? You're the tie-breaker it seems

Vote for me, Revent! I promise to lower the tax rate, improve trade and build infrastructure while strengthening our national security and solving the unemployment problem by hiring more Vultures!

 

[mystyfly]

Putting a chop in here seems like a waste of a forest that could be used to speed something else up. (I still want Parthenon! )

How are hammers gained by chopping at Uruk any different from hammers gained by chopping in any other city?

I am ok with chopping away the forest on the PH, riverside plains tile and the GH tile in Kish as they open up the tiles underneath for improvements immediately:

Vote for me, Revent! I promise to lower the tax rate, improve trade and build infrastructure while strengthening our national security and solving the unemployment problem by hiring more Vultures!

 

[vranasm]

Vote for me, Revent! I promise to lower the tax rate, improve trade and build infrastructure while strengthening our national security and solving the unemployment problem by hiring more Vultures!

am I right to read this as direct reference to current presidential campaign in USA?

there was very good image showing the biggest problem of democracy which I obviously can't find now... but it was basically 2 pictures in one

the first picture was a cart which was dragged by bunch of people (let's say 20) and 7 people on the cart deforming into cart dragged by 7 people with 20 people on the cart thanks to the politics of "democracy" and the guys on cart had whip to motivate the ones dragging...

we have even a saying in czech "kapri si rybnik nevypusti" (the carp won't drain the pond) meaning no one will vote for reducing his income from welfare.

 

[Smilingrogue]

How are hammers gained by chopping at Uruk any different from hammers gained by chopping in any other city?

Uruk has more forests and I really want Parthenon. It is a static perma-boost to our GSpy generation which works well with Pacifism. We are probably not going to bulb Philo as that means generating a GS. But Philo should be available from Asoka as he chases both religions and Lib. (His fav. civic is unlocked by it and he also builds the Shwedagon Paya for adopting it ahead of time like Willem Fail-gold for us, though )

Uruk is the best place to pursue this wonder as it already has naturally abundant hammers to throw at it and forests available. And while I do admit we want to beat down Asoka, I seriously doubt he will be a threat. I think only Gandhi and Elizabeth have worse troop building tendencies than him. Kish alone should be enough to handle him, with Eridu chipping in. Uruk can send the vultures to see if we can leech the Barb city off Alex. This makes me think we should save the trees there.

am I right to read this as direct reference to current presidential campaign in USA?

there was very good image showing the biggest problem of democracy which I obviously can't find now... but it was basically 2 pictures in one

the first picture was a cart which was dragged by bunch of people (let's say 20) and 7 people on the cart deforming into cart dragged by 7 people with 20 people on the cart thanks to the politics of "democracy" and the guys on cart had whip to motivate the ones dragging...

we have even a saying in czech "kapri si rybnik nevypusti" (the carp won't drain the pond) meaning no one will vote for reducing his income from welfare.

While the idea for that joke was inspired by the Presidential campaign, it was more a tongue in cheek reference to me building roads to our neighbours, libraries and Vultures in my upcoming turnset.

I like the Winston Churchill quote: "It is said that Democracy is the worst form of Government. Except all the other forms that have been tried"