Blatant cheating, what's the excuse with this one?

[Buttercup]

No, I'm not upset, angry, or in need of assistance. I'm just pointing a finger and laughing and want to know why this happens:

I defeated an AI civ really early in BC, so it decided to respawn somewhere else on my island. I could see it happening because I had cleared all the fog-of-war from the island.

It's not the respawning I'm writing about, I've already got used to that hilarity, it's:

Before the new capital city had even expanded its borders it settled its second new city. It somehow managed to build a settler and move it to a new location all before it's new capital had time to expand its borders...

And on Regent, which is why I play on Regent, the AI isn't supposed to cheat with freebies... is it...

So... what are the excuses, oops, I mean reasons, for this one?

 

[justanick]

There are some boni in addition to those depending on difficulty setting. Respawning Civs would be at a disadvantage against regular civs, so those boni are justified to some degree.

The respawned civ gets the following:
- 1 city
- 3 defensive units
- 1 offensive unit
- 1 settler/start unit 1
- 1 worker/start unit 2
- All bonus starting units based on difficulty level
- Their gold is increased by starting_gold X 10 (i.e., 100 gold using default rules).

 

[Buttercup]

Haha, that's hilarious.

I've no idea why the game developers saw justification for respawning AIs in the first place, but respawning them more powerful than the last city you destroyed is beyond hilarious.

"Here's your reward for doing what the game wants you to do too efficiently: A worse situation". Did no-one in the office google how reward structures work? Hahaha.

I guess the justification is balancing, but in this game's case its the usual over-balancing the absurdities to try to balance out the game's natural and inherent imbalances. In this instance I think no-one would have cared one way or the other if this example was never a game 'feature'.

 

[need my speed]

You can turn that option off. It is not a limitation, it is a toggleable feature.

What do you think are the game's natural and inherent imbalances? That a human is inherently smarter? I am not sure what you mean.

 

[Buttercup]

You can turn that option off. It is not a limitation, it is a toggleable feature.

What do you think are the game's natural and inherent imbalances? That a human is inherently smarter? I am not sure what you mean.

Why would anyone want it to even be a toggle?

Yes, the Civ series is notorious for terrible AI and the human will always win because the human is smarter at working the game's systems than the AI is, hence the AI just gets lots of cheating freebies and is coded to be annoying rather than effectual - see terrible trade deals, appallingly weak island invasions, forward settling, increased difficulty just being that the AI gets more stuff for free and can build stuff cheaper, prefers military to science, can't build up a stockpile of money, doesn't use the lux slider, converts to any old government it comes across, attacks in dribs and drabs, defends cities by moving units out of the city, doesn't put units on tiles on small islands to prevent landing, never uses land bombardment but will happily boat-bomb you for hours even though boats can't take cities, will keep sending boats to eternal doom against bombers regardless of the last 60 being sunk without any result, generally suicidal attacks, forward settling, settling so everything good is in the 'middle' of all their culture (so it's more annoying when you invade them) instead of being useful to the town, etc etc etc.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Why would anyone want it to even be a toggle?

It also applies when an AI wipes out another AI early on, doesn't it?

 

[Buttercup]

It also applies when an AI wipes out another AI early on, doesn't it?

I've never known an AI to wipe out another AI early on, though I don't usually play on teeny small maps.

In the unusual situation of an AI wiping out another AI early, do you feel that would benefit you enough to consider making it toggle-worthy?

 

[Bandobras Took]

I don't know; it's been long enough since I've played Civ 3 that I'm not sure how often runaway civs on the other continent happen.

 

[need my speed]

It's not about benefiting though; some people simply like to play, not to reach a goal or to win as soon as possible, but to experience all of the game and all of the civilisations, and for them, it might be a nice option.

 

[Buttercup]

It's not about benefiting though; some people simply like to play, not to reach a goal or to win as soon as possible, but to experience all of the game and all of the civilisations, and for them, it might be a nice option.

I'm one of those people. I've just played an awful lot of games and inevitably landed on a few good date finishes. And I have no idea why it would be a nice option. Perhaps you could put into words what makes having an AI you've defeated be respawned a "nice" option for anyone in any circumstance, beyond just the platitude of "well, someone out there probably likes it", completely ignoring the fact that the developers must have really liked the idea, I mean, it has its own toggle and everything. Where's the toggle to always allow one for one trading with polite neighbours? Do you think 'some people' would think that was a nice option? As in, what the word nice means.

 

[Kirejara]

I must admit, that I do not see a problem with respawning KIs, since you are able to turn it on and off.

I am currently playing on an Earth map. And since I play without respawning I had to restart early as Japan and Rome were destroyed within the first ten turns (I assume that Ätna and Fuji have something to do with it).

And it happened several times before even on random maps, that one player gets destroyed very early, then their first city is next to an active vulcano...

I remember that in Civ2 not the destroyed nation got respawned, but another random nation was dropped on any part of the map, that was still under the fog of war (meaning that some late players started sometimes on very odd and poor positions including the arctic ice!).

 

[Buttercup]

It's not really a matter of seeing a "problem" with it. I'm sure no-one sees it as a problem. Try imagining the question from the other way round, ie: What's the point of it? They could have small animations of birds flying around that occasionally poop on a warrior's head to remove a hit point and no-one would have a "problem" with it, it would be part of the game, but what would be the point and should it have it's own toggle "Turn bird pooping on and off"?

Do you get what I'm saying?

The volcano thing is interesting. But then why allow first cities to spawn within reach of a volcano if you're just going to respawn them somewhere else if the bad luck of spawning near a volcano takes you out the game. Seems to counteract the whole point of someone getting amusingly destroyed by a volcano at size 1 city, no? Just program the game not to spawn AIs next to a volcano?

 

[justanick]

If a civilisation is destroyed very early this delays the whole world to be covered with cities. Respawning of AIs counteracts this. Having the world covered reasonable soon with cities can be deemed desirable, especially at lower levels. At higher levels AIs tend to expand so fast, that respawning cannot occur due to lack of unused space.

 

[need my speed]

Indeed. I would also find it desirable so as to prevent all those very odd colonies that have no rhyme but reason to them, except for there being a piece of empty land somewhere far away behind ten other borders.

 

[Buttercup]

If a civilisation is destroyed very early this delays the whole world to be covered with cities. Respawning of AIs counteracts this. Having the world covered reasonable soon with cities can be deemed desirable, especially at lower levels. At higher levels AIs tend to expand so fast, that respawning cannot occur due to lack of unused space.

You forgot to say why it might be deemed desirable.

Indeed. I would also find it desirable so as to prevent all those very odd colonies that have no rhyme but reason to them, except for there being a piece of empty land somewhere far away behind ten other borders.

I have no idea what you mean. Respawning AIs don't have anything to do with odd colonies?

 

[CKS]

Some people use respawning AI as a way to collect extra gold and workers. I don't play with respawning, but I notice in the HOF rules that you are only allowed to kill off each AI twice per turn, so somebody must have thought about taking advantage of all the gold that could be potentially added to the game.

Actually, in fast 100k games I usually run out of cash and I'm always short on workers; if I set up some spawning spaces, this might be worth trying out. There is a big chunk of empty land in my current game that would have worked well for this purpose. I'll have to think about this some more.

 

[need my speed]

I have no idea what you mean. Respawning AIs don't have anything to do with odd colonies?

Ah, not the Worker mechanic of establishing colonies, no... What I mean is, if you play an Earth map with historical starting positions, and if you do not make certain terrain unsettleable, then Siberia will be occupied by a dozen of civilisations. In Civilization IV, civilisations have continuous cultural borders on the same landmass, by and large. In Civilization III, every AI rushes to fill up every single empty spot. The respawn mechanic would respawn an AI at such an empty place, and thus prevent dozens of other AIs from settling there, creating an ugly and illogical world.

 

[Buttercup]

Some people use respawning AI as a way to collect extra gold and workers. I don't play with respawning, but I notice in the HOF rules that you are only allowed to kill off each AI twice per turn, so somebody must have thought about taking advantage of all the gold that could be potentially added to the game.

Actually, in fast 100k games I usually run out of cash and I'm always short on workers; if I set up some spawning spaces, this might be worth trying out. There is a big chunk of empty land in my current game that would have worked well for this purpose. I'll have to think about this some more.

I tried farming Barbarians once. It worked for a bit, but then the AI just settled there quite quickly anyway. Also, it backfires when it does that horde thing and it takes you about 20 turns for your little stack of Barb killers to wade through them all.

An interesting concept though, I admit, though I've never seen an AI respawn more than once. I always thought it was kill once, then the respawn, kill that and they were then gone. Also, I'd have thought that if you had the capacity to firstly bump off an AI and, secondly, to have troops near the respawn area, all in BC, then you'd probably be in a situation where a couple of free inefficient workers wouldn't be worth the hassle, but I guess in some really obscure circumstances it might be. Maybe for Army farming as well? Etc.

However, this is still you looking to find a way to make a game mechanic work for you that the developers didn't necessarily think of, it doesn't explain why the developers put so much energy into the concept that they even decided to add a toggle for it, when it's such a minor thing? This last sentence is also in answer to need_my_speed. The fact that there's a toggle for it suggests it's somehow something important? That it's very important that AIs respawn... for some reason...

 

[Buttercup]

some people simply like to play, not to reach a goal or to win as soon as possible, but to experience all of the game

 

[need my speed]

However, this is still you looking to find a way to make a game mechanic work for you that the developers didn't necessarily think of, it doesn't explain why the developers put so much energy into the concept that they even decided to add a toggle for it, when it's such a minor thing? This last sentence is also in answer to need_my_speed. The fact that there's a toggle for it suggests it's somehow something important? That it's very important that AIs respawn... for some reason...

That I do not know. Perhaps tradition, for it was in the previous games as well? But that would just make you ask the question about the first Civilization game it appeared in.

Image

I do not understand what you mean.