BNH01- Conquesting Emperor

[Rik Meleet]

IIRC our army city has about 2 turns left on the army. We could switch that city to palace pre-build. It already has slightly more than 360 shields accumulated. At 20spt, it has about 12 more turns to go on the ToE (600 shields). The timing is about right.

But we desperately need armies. Why would we ever choose Magellan's over an army ??

But, we don't have a good pre-build for Hoover right now.

We will have one soon, but TOE needs to be finished in Coimbra first. After that we can pick the next city for the Palace prebuild for Hoovers. It needs to be a river city.

I kind of wished we didn't rush the Pentagon, or we had researched Industrialization before Communism. Hoover will probably be done this way: After taking the usual teches with the ToE, research Industrialization next. The rush a factory and a coal plant by disbanding units (draft them). It could get our best producing city to 60spt this way, and then the city can pump out Hoovers in about 13 turns.

Communism is way more valuable to us than Industrialisation.

Our trade situation:

Korea has 325gpt; Spain has about 300gpt; there is basically no other gpt out there. Spain's offer for Communism is significantly lower than Korea's, so they are probably researching it.

We could take a chance, by selling Communism to Spain first, taking all of their money, then selling Communism at 3rd to Korea (Korea's offer for Communism at 2nd was all gold + Demo). This way, we have a chance to clean up all remaining gpt in the game, and that's about as good as we can do.

No, why on earth do we want to have the AI to have Communism? If they want they can buy this tech, but at full price. Anf that means when Spain has stopped paying for the previous tech. And if they have already researched Communism, they can buy 1 other tech; at full price. We'll have many techs soon; due to TOE. But don't sell techs because the deal looks interesting. You can only judge the deal correctly when Spain finishes the gpt payments to us. No trades until then

 

[jb1964]

Got it. Will start this evening.

 

[SJ Frank]

To continue the discussion...

But we desperately need armies. Why would we ever choose Magellan's over an army ??

There is only one Magellan's, but we will have many armies. In a game where we're handly winning, I hate to miss out on a wonder.

Do we desperately need the army? I wouldn't call it desperate. Desperate is if we're railroading and Inca is starting spaceship parts. We're going to carve England up regardless.

Think of Magellan's as style points . Now, those are my personal opinion. We, as a team, as go either way on this and I'd be fine with the decision. I'm just saying that I prefer a glittering trophy over more blood and carnage.

And Magellans is useful in one instance: when we invade the next continent, and the ones after that, we will have to lead with amphibious attacks. It eliminates some of the headaches of playing on a huge map.

We will have one soon, but TOE needs to be finished in Coimbra first. After that we can pick the next city for the Palace prebuild for Hoovers. It needs to be a river city. Communism is way more valuable to us than Industrialisation.

The reason for researching Industrialization before Communism are:
- We were in GA, so we can't revolt anyways, so might as well research Communism at the tail end of the GA. Also, revolting the turn that we get the tech saves 1 turn of commerce.
- In a game where we're already ahead. Getting ToE isn't much of a plus, but getting Hoovers is. The way to get Hoovers fast, since it is an 800 shield wonder, is to rush a factory and coal plant in a city, and have a double pre-build of palace+US for the ToE and Hoover. Ideally, the Hoover pre-build should be slightly ahead of the ToE pre-build. It should reach 800 shield the turn after the ToE pre-build reachs 600 shields, for an immediate Hoover. This is only possible if we can use the US as one of the pre-build.

No, why on earth do we want to have the AI to have Communism? If they want they can buy this tech, but at full price. Anf that means when Spain has stopped paying for the previous tech. And if they have already researched Communism, they can buy 1 other tech; at full price. We'll have many techs soon; due to TOE. But don't sell techs because the deal looks interesting. You can only judge the deal correctly when Spain finishes the gpt payments to us. No trades until then

The full price of Communism is more than 500gpt (Korea is willing to pay 300gpt + Democracy for it). There is no way an AI out there can pay the full price any time soon.

What's the idea behind selling tech to the AI? We want to slow their research, slow their trading, right? We can do that by getting all of their free gpt by selling Communism, right now. I think it's better than letting them use that money for the next 11 turns.

Besides, don't we want the AI's to switch from Democracy to the more advanced government of Communism

 

[Rik Meleet]

The idea is to slow them, indeed, by draining their gpt. But selling a tech for gpt (or 2 or 3) is essential here. You don't slow their research if you keep selling them techs for gpt every few turns. In fact; you are speeding their research.
If we sell 1 tech for a mountain of gpt; and sell that tech to other nations as well (for gpt) and then refrain from selling techs for as long as the gpt payments last we have their gpt and for only 1 tech, not 3.

I've spoken my POV on Magellan; in the end the active player decides all, so the decision is JB's.

TOE: If you do the techs for gpt my way; the ToE is important, even if you are ahead tech-wise.

BTW: SJ, do you know the penalty for discussing with a moderator ?? I could ban you ... :devil2:


Seriously, I would never abuse my mod-powers like this. I prefer more subtle ways to abuse my mod powers

 

[jb1964]

You two are making my head hurt. That is, you're making me think and that's something I try and avoid at work.

I see ToE and Hoovers as superior to Magellans. To obtain all of these would be a nice trick. Anyone think we can do it?

Also, I normally sell techs as soon as the AI's can offer a reasonable amount of gold. That is, I'm too impatient to wait for their cash flow to jump and sqeeze the maximum amount of coin from them. For a change of pace, I would advocate stressing the contribution margine and time our sale to what would amount to the AI's next budget cycle. In other words, sell when their gpt deal has ended.

I think this tactic drives me to stress ToE even more. I want Motorized Transportation so far ahead of our opponents that they'll never have the opportunity to build a single tank. Now that would be an abuse of power.

BTW, I finished one SG last night when I found two settler laden galley's wandering the high seas and sank them so this one is now my focus.

 

[SJ Frank]

Seriously, I would never abuse my mod-powers like this. I prefer more subtle ways to abuse my mod powers

*pokes at the new message in the PM box, with a 10 feet pole*

... okay, this one's safe...

I like discussions like this, it leads to more headaches for other players.

Sounds like JB has now some definite ideas about what he wants to do. The game is yours. Take it away.

 

[jb1964]

Turn 0, 1300 AD – In anarchy. Moving forces towards the English frontier. A few cities in a bit of cultural pressure.
Deal w/ Isabella expires in 6 turns.

IBT: Batsh riots. Renamed Bat.

Turn 1, 1305 AD – Anarchy. No new techs from our fellow inhabitants.

IBT: English and Spanish are building Shakespeare’s. A Byzantine Dromon sails by our privateer some damage (2/5). I guess that was inflicted by the Inca.

Turn 2, 1310 AD – Anachy. No new techs.

IBT: Aztec wanna talk and would like to trade TM’s. We try for a better deal but make none. Byzantines and Inca make peace.
We are now Commies.

Turn 3, 1315 AD – Communist. No new techs for sale. Koreans are holding a little bit of cash so this bodes well for a deal w/ the Spanish while still making a profitable deal w/ the Koreans.

Coimbria has about 325s banked w/ 12spt.
Faro has 385s w/ 16spt.
Emerita has only about 110s w/ 26spt.

OK, only one of these cities can be a big pre-build because the only big-ticket item we have to bank shields is a palace.

Medicine in 2 turns at 80%. Electricity and SM will be about another 20 turns.
Coimbria could have ~565s, Faro ~700s (overkill for ToE), and Emerita ~630s.
OK, Faro builds an Army, Coimbria stays w/ Magellan’s, and Emerita starts banking for ToE.

So in ~20 turns we get two techs. Industry, AT &/or Electronics. AT is one. Electronics then sets us up for Hoovers in about 7 turns while we go for Industry. Grab Industry and we can time the shields for Hoovers while simultaneously able to build factories.

The Mongols are still dead.

IBT: Nothing whatsoever.

Turn 4, 1320 AD
Korea and Spain have discovered Nationalism.
Rail roading.

IBT: We rework the deal for incense w/ the Koreans for 19gpt netting an extra gold. Woohoo! Carthage cancels the 9gpt for incense.
We get Medicine and set research for Electricity in 8 at 100%.

Turn 5, 1325 AD
Worker actions.
If the next leader wants to eviscerate Elizabeth have at it.

Go nuts.

The save...

 

[Rik Meleet]

that would be me; I've got it

 

[Rik Meleet]

IHT:
So we are Communistic. Spain's 108 gpt deal will end in 1 turn. Korea, England, Spain and Zulu have Democracy and England, Korea and Spain also have Free Artistry. Electricity is 8 turns away at 100% science. I smell trading next turn.

I'm going to witch Coimbra from Magellan to Palace soon.

MM cities; With 0% tax, we don't need money-makers. Banks and markets are cancelled; courts, libs and granaries queued.

Moving some Cavs out of cities which have a flip-danger. And into a better position to strike at England soon.

IBT: Zulu start Shaka's Pierce Theater.

[1] 1330 AD - Dialing up Shaka. Buy Democracy + Gems for Incense + Magnetism + ToG + 530 gold. Then sell Nationalism to Zulus for Free Artistry + WM + 533 gold + 2 gpt.
The Koreans can afford more than the Spaniards. Sell Medicie to Korea for WM + 420 gpt + 136 gold. Then to Spain for WM + 195 gpt + 53 gold. Sell Spain Incense for 47 gpt.
Trade our Incense + Economincs to Sumeria for Spices + 8 gold.
These deals have completely drained Korea, Zulus and Spain for the next 20 turns, gaining us a virtually complete WM, 664 gpt, 201 gold and 2 luxuries.

Upgrade 28 muskets to rifles for 840 gold.

Improving the Faro-area (army producer). Can't efficiently change Coimbra to a prebuild; SJ Frank will have his Magellan there. Start Shake's in Lissabon, Emerita on Palace.

MM all cities.

We have no deals with England; and England has no MPP's. We are strong compared to England. Time to pick a fight.
Demand English troops to leave our soil and in no time England complies. I call ELisabeth an ugly cow and she just smiles at me. Then I declare war openly.

Raze Ipswich to the ground. Capture Berwick. Capture Norwich. Capture Leicester. Kill some units and Mr Cabal comes to visit us:

I make an army. I only put elites in it, a very powerful army it is. Capture Bath.

IBT: English mass their modern troops into position to counterattack Bath nect turn. Their forces consist of 5 warriors, 7 archers and 1 cav.
A lot of We love the Prince days starting.

[2] 1335 AD - Attack on Bristol fails, Capture Cambridge. Sending a lot of workers back to our core to railroad the Wonder areas.
Do a round of MM-ing. Do a round of Diplo. Sell Ivory to Spain for WM + 35 gpt + 207 gold.
Establish embassies with everyone. Madrid finishes Magellan in 6 turns; at 14 spt.
Poor aztecs have no resources and no luxes. And no city improvements in Tenoch.
Investigate Wonder Cities.
Barcelona: Shakes - 18 turns; 16 spt.
Seoul: Shakes - 15 turns; 15 spt.
Hlobane: Shakes - 22 turns; 16 spt.
Lissabon: Shakes - 9 turns; 35 spt.
Can't investigate Nottingham due to war.

We are on the virge of killing the cascade !!

IBT:
We finish Magellan in Coimbra. English, Spanish, Koreans and Zulu start Shake's (??)...
Hovd grows in 2 and finishes a worker in 2; like clockwork. Excellent worker-pump.

[3] 1340 AD - Now Madrid is building Shake's for Spain. Magellan is 400 Shields; Spain had max 400 - (14X6) + 13 = 329 shields put into it and now 343 shields. Shakes is 450, so it would take them max 8 turns to finish it. Lissabon also needs 8 turns; perhaps I can lower that.
Mining the Lissabon-area. Still 8 turns.
Reinvestigate Madrid to check the numbers: Shake's in 7.
We have invested about 200 shields already. It's either wait and hope someone researches a Wonder tech, or switch now. Or switch research to Industrialization and go for Universal Suffrage. But US won't do us any good, no WW in Commie. I decide to switch to Cathedral.

Capture Bristol, Reading, Dover and Oxford.

IBT: Palace expands.

[4] 1345 AD - Capture Liverpool, Hastings
Workers are improving the Iron Works location.

IBT: Inca demand Ivory. After laughing in their faces for 30 minutes I consider the deal seriously. I think we are still importing some of their luxuries and loosing those could be be bad. I give it to them. Must be a first, being the top power in the world and caving to a demand ...
English manage to kill a cav.

[5] 1350 AD - Railroading to the front. The armies are going to rest and heal.

I've done no Micro-Managing this turn, that is up for the next player. The armies are fortified in Liverpool (3) and Hastings (2) - healing.

Good luck !!

The Save 1350 AD -> The liberation on England

 

[SJ Frank]

got it

Great turn of trading there

 

[jb1964]

Units in a city will lower the chance of a flip but if the city flips you obviously lose them. A what point does the benefit of detering a flip get outweighed by the chance of loss?

[1] 1330 AD - Dialing up Shaka. Buy Democracy + Gems for Incense + Magnetism + ToG + 530 gold. Then sell Nationalism to Zulus for Free Artistry + WM + 533 gold + 2 gpt.

Why is Democracy and Free Artistry of any value to us? It seems the Zulu got Mag, ToG and Nationalism for a very low price.

MM cities; With 0% tax, we don't need money-makers. Banks and markets are cancelled; courts, libs and granaries queued.

Isn't the value of banks and markets to increase capitol that increases our rate of research?

 

[Rik Meleet]

1 - The flip risk is too big; we'd need 30+ units. And I can't rush culture in small cities in Commie. So I moved units out to save them in case the cities do flip.

2 - I wanted Shakes to allow Lissabon to get past size 12 and to kill the wonder-cascade. I failed ...
But the Zulu trade was good. If we didn't sell the techs, someone else would and we'd get nothing. Zulus are a barier and an ally in an upcoming Spain war.

3 - research is 100% and we still make 600+ gpt. Banks and markets only give extra money if we have at least 10% tax. At 0% they don't do anything (markets do give happyness, which we don't need with all luxes).

 

[jb1964]

1 - The flip risk is too big; we'd need 30+ units. And I can't rush culture in small cities in Commie. So I moved units out to save them in case the cities do flip.

Yes, I checked on this and it seemed that either you had a few units to mke the odds low or you needed many to make it zero. Keeping a few units in to keep the odds low while keeping a contingency force outside is a good idea.

2 - I wanted Shakes to allow Lissabon to get past size 12 and to kill the wonder-cascade. I failed ...
But the Zulu trade was good. If we didn't sell the techs, someone else would and we'd get nothing. Zulus are a barier and an ally in an upcoming Spain war.

True.

3 - research is 100% and we still make 600+ gpt. Banks and markets only give extra money if we have at least 10% tax. At 0% they don't do anything (markets do give happyness, which we don't need with all luxes).

Didn't think about the benefits only applying to taxes, which you mentioned in the first note.

 

[SJ Frank]

1. Any out dated troops can be brought in via the railnetwork to suppress the locals. Cavs should be healing 1) just outside cities or 2) in cities that have 20+ troops stationed.

2. I think it was a good trade. I have no problem with giving some techs to the lower tier civs. By the time we get to tackle the Zulus, they would probably have gotten Nationalism on their own anyways. Now, we simply want to get to them before replacable parts.

3. I'd prefer to keep building the marketplaces. I haven't seen the game yet, but if it could get the smaller cities to WLTKD, then it would help hurrying the other buildings.

 

[SJ Frank]

MMoW (Much Movement of Workers)

Turn 0 1350 AD

MM Cities

Drop some units into resisting cities where the railroad could reach them.

Checking dilopmacy: many lux deals are due next turn. Spain still has 101gpt remaining.

Starting getting some transports.

IBT:
Some Incan and Zulu ships sail by
2 English cavs show up, plus a few other troops

Turn 1 1355 AD

Workers focus on RR irrigated tile of cities that need growth. Some cities need RR on mined tiles to reach good break points, but I'll do that after those cities finish their current projects.

Build the RR to the front.

Electricity due in 2, lower science, up lux to 10%, allowing me to pull some core defenders out to the front line.

Form a line of cavs in the pennisula with Spainish cities, that allows me to pull the cav defenders from those cities as well.

Privateers shadow an Incan caravel.

Takes care of exposed English troops. Elite Cavs win both of their battles, but no leader.

Use the armies to take Nottingham. Pile as many troops as I can into hastings and Nottingham.

IBT: Oops, I forgot to renew the lux deals. The AI's come-a-knocking mid-turn. Zulus sneak attack us! They capture an exposed cannon.

Turn 2 1360 AD

Privateers sink the Incan Caravel.
Army takes the English city of Brighton.
Cav kills offending Zulu Impi.
Our carracks see some action. The first one loses to a Zulu Caravel, but the second one wins and becomes elite.

IBT: not much happening

Turn 3 1365 AD

Electricity->Scientic Method, in 5.
Army takes London.
Army almost take Coventry.
Shuffle MP's to maintain WLTKD in some cities.

Turn 4 1370 AD

The Blitz turn:

Army takes Coventry
Cavs take New castle.
Two evil vet Rifles in York redlines two army, but we take the city none the less.
Fortify 4 hurt armies and about 40 units in York. Hopefully the town won't flip.

IBT: Oops, a pair of Zulu cavs comes out of Spainish land to capture Tsetser.
Madrid completes Shakespeare's.

Turn 5 1375 AD

Take Tsetser back.
Slow science to 90%, raise lux to 10%.
Rest the army this turn.

NOTE:
- We should make peace with the Zulus ASAP, and get that Gem back.
- With the ToE, I propose that we take Atomic Theory and Industrialization. We can then research Replacable Parts before Electronics, the reason being we have no pre-build for Hoovers. Also, change all current builds to Police Station as factory pre-builds if you choose to do this.
- The bulk of our army is healing in York, but there is one army and a bunch of cavs available to you in Newcastle.
- I've been improving cities in a south to north sweep. I think most of our core cities that can be are at 20spt now. Smokes, I think, can use a little more help though.
- These are not my best set of turns.

The 1375 AD Save

 

[jb1964]

MMoW (Much Movement of Workers)
IBT: Oops, I forgot to renew the lux deals. The AI's come-a-knocking mid-turn. Zulus sneak attack us! They capture an exposed cannon.

Aiyeeee! All is lost.

IBT: Oops, a pair of Zulu cavs comes out of Spainish land to capture Tsetser.

OK, Now I'm ticked. Shaka must die!

- We should make peace with the Zulus ASAP, and get that Gem back.

Can we please just kill him and take the gems?

- With the ToE, I propose that we take Atomic Theory and Industrialization. We can then research Replacable Parts before Electronics, the reason being we have no pre-build for Hoovers. Also, change all current builds to Police Station as factory pre-builds if you choose to do this.

Yep, this is a good approach. Agreed.

Hey, you might not be real excited about these set of turns but they certainly work for me. Good job.

Oh, BTW, I'm up. Will d/l this evening after Boy Scouts.

 

[jb1964]

Turn 0, 1375 AD
Shaka’s not interested in talking.
Nottingham needs some happiness or it’ll riot. We fire the cop and pull in another entertainer.

IBT: Korea not interested in extending our agreement and not much interested in anything else. The Iroquois sign up w/ the Zulu for an embargo against us.
Queue up police stations as factory pre-builds except for coastal cities building fleet ships.

Turn 1, 1380 AD
Elite crusader and cavalry kill off two English cavalry. No GL’s.
Elite cavalry kills off another English cavalry and we get….

Leader is used to build yet another army.
Vet rifle in Canterbury redlines an army. Forth army to attack takes the city. (1)
Carlisle is ours w/ no losses. (2)
Exeter is ours w/ no losses. (3) Elite win, no GL.

Isabella’s willing to pay 8800+ gold for electricity and TechCalc puts its value at 7000g. Well, she’s certainly not hurting for income. Interestingly she will not give us a penny more that what she’s offering right now so I’m guessing that this would tap her out. Hmmmm, wait for more parties to sell to or strike a deal while it’s hot?

JB fingers the trigger and begins to squeeze........ nope.

IBT: England signs up Arabia for an embargo.

Turn 2, 1385 AD
Shaka’s still not talking.
Birmingham’s ours w/ no losses (4)
Warwick’s ours w/ the efforts of one fine army (5)
Leeds is ours. (6) No losses.
Railing to the front.
Sci Meth in 1.

Saltpeter to Korea for WM, 23gpt and 90g
Hannibal will only give us pocket change for iron so we pass.
Cities in resistance but nothing on the verge of rioting.

IBT: Spain and Russia sign an MPP. Smart move Isabella.
The genius Zulu land an Impi. We immediately resign the game due to paralyzing fear.

Turn 3, 1390 AD
Gloucester captured and renamed Glucose. (7)
Manchester captured. (8)
The English are down to a single city, Richmond. It’s ours next turn. However, next turn is going to have to be tomorrow.

Palace switched over to ToE, 4 turns. Research pushed down to 0%.

Cats is now our Hoovers pre-build location with 24spt and 48 banked. It’s 3 turns from growth to size 12 and then can be maximized for shields. Alternately we could rush a factory and then set to building Hoovers.

IBT: Nothing. Really.

Turn 4, 1395 AD
We take Richmond and discover the English island city of Portsmouth off of our West coast.
We found Salty and take ownership of one of Russia’s saltpeter resources. Ha!
Units are healing. This is their day of rest.

IBT: English bomb the snot out of a roaded hill. Many “resistance has ended” messages.

Game locked up. Had to kill the process but auto-save seems to have saved me.

Turn 5, 1400 AD
Four privateers take out two Man-o-War but a third is still sailing South w/ a galleon in tow. We have a single privateer on the West coast in the port of Cats. I think.
We have a galleon of cavalry sitting off a Zulu city, New Ulundi, with two more galleons headed up the coast w/ cavalry.
Another cavalry galleon is sailing towards Portsmouth undefended.

OK, I’m home waiting for a doctor’s appointment and they call and cancel. I hope you all don’t mind but I’m frustrated by this and have time to kill so I’m going to play out 10 turns.

IBT: Zulu ask for peace. Sure. We’ll purchase the gems next turn.

Turn 6, 1405 AD
Can’t get the gems. No trade route. Hmmmm. Oh yes, they signed an embargo against us. How do you go about breaking that? My F4 is not showing embargos. Something’s still wrong with this game on my machine.
Man, how I would like combustion so we could transport our armies into Spanish territory. Well, we pumped an army this turn so we can load that on a boat.
Korea and Spain have Facism but both remain a democracy. Will check that again next turn.
Place healed armies in cities still in resistance.

IBT: We get ToE and take AT and Industrialization. Next step, Replaceable Parts while pre-build grows.
Agree to a RoP w/ the Zulu.
Spanish are building US.

Turn 7, 1410 AD
Worker actions galore.
Draft citizens from across our lands and disband them in Cats to rush factory.
Switch all police stations to factories.
Land 4 cavalry next to Portsmouth that is guarded by a spear. Say adios to Lizzy.
Some cities whipped to kill off malcontents and build markets to make the remaining populace happy to still be alive. Now shut up!

IBT: Isabella wants us out of her territory. Sure, we’ll head in that general direction.

Turn 8, 1415 AD
Rats, Portsmouth has more units than I thought. They rush a regular rifle, which kills one of our cavalry and then an MI kills the next. This goes badly. Then next two cavalry score kills w/ only the loss of one hp.
Cats is up to 65spt.

IBT: Nothing

Turn 9, 1420 AD
Two more units killed off from Portsmouth.
Moving two privateers to give the returning galleon from Portsmouth some cover.
Mining over some irrigated tiles in size 12 cities.
It sucks to be the Aztecs. What a crappy little island.
Replaceable parts in 4 turns.
Korea and Spain are still down Electricity.

IBT: Nothing

Turn 10, 1425 AD

The embargos against us have come to a mysterious end.
The embargo against us w/ the Zulu is a deal w/ the Iroquois. When do we get marines?
Shaka signs up for an embargo against Hiawatha but that doesn’t break the first deal. Can we declare against the Iroquois and just bomb their one tile island country silly for fun?
Massive worker actions.
Next!

 

[SJ Frank]

I say wait. I'm not even sure we have 20 turns before the attack on Spain commences

 

[Rik Meleet]

Nice advisor; a relative of yours ???
Don't trade; the gold seems nice; but what are we going to do with it? Cashrushing is not possible in Communism, we have huge positive tax on 0% and we've upgraded all upgradable units. We have all embassies etc.
Don't be greedy, be smart. Competitors not having techs is far more important to us now then 8000 gold.

 

[jb1964]

Nice advisor; a relative of yours ???

Not quite the advisor's Rik's used to. This advisor calls me "dad". This is a shot lifted out of a picture after an event at a swim meet this summer.

I didn't make the deal. The only point would have been to deprive Spain of cash that we can't use.