KaNick
Deity
@teturkhan, I'm not sure lets take a poll
Bomber Range Petition
- Thread starter TETurkhan
- Start date
Can someone explain to me why bomber range has anything to do with pathfinding? The bomber isn't actually traveling to the square to drop bombs - it just appears there. I can see how there might be difficulty in evaluating all the units but that does NOT increase exponentially with distance.
elemming
Chieftain
This problem is exactly what I was looking for a discusion of.
Has anyone experimented with clicking "infinite range" for the stealth bomber? I am wondering if that only works for nuclear?
Blogging on my life which includes making a current Civ Mod.
http://elemming.blogspot.com
Has anyone experimented with clicking "infinite range" for the stealth bomber? I am wondering if that only works for nuclear?
Blogging on my life which includes making a current Civ Mod.
http://elemming.blogspot.com
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
There are numerous algorithms for each bomber to go through each turn for every tile while the AI is at war. If the AI has 20 bombers with, say, a range of 20, that means that the AI has to run however many processes for 400 tiles 20 times, for a total of 8000 times. Depending on what has to be done for each tile, those 8000 times can be pretty evil.
What they mean about the exponential increase is that, say, for 20 tile range, you have 8000 tiles. For 21 range, you have 8400. Not exponential, but certainly a lot more than before.
Of course, that's just a rough explanation, so don't go into all sorts of logarithmic details, etc., I'm just trying to prove a point.
Mad Bomber
Commander
Normal Bomber's need to have at least double the range. & I would like to see a Strategic Bomber with an infinite range bombardment (also able to drop a nuke) as well as the stealth bomber. As far as algorithems or processes, the ICBM has infinite bombardment & the AI seems to use these proficiently.
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
Hehe. AI ICBM targeting system: Find city on a list, blow it up.
HotDog Fish
Leftist Loyalist
Why stop at just changing bomber range, just scrap and overhaul the whole god damn way air units work, honestly this is possibly the strangest and most innaccurate portryal of how air units actually work! But I disgress, Firaxis!! We need to change the bomber radius!!!
I agree that radius needs to change along with most of the way air and sea battles work but I digress.
A figher should have some X base radius.
A bomber should have some X distance.
There should be fighter escort for bombers which add a defensive factor for certain ranges... It could be called a bomber wing or whatever.
A tech should be added for jet engines. This would double the range of aircraft.
Then Stealth would have the same range as those with jet tech up grade or maybe one square further.
The range of both sea and air units should be scaled down/up for map size.
Aircraft should be able to take out ships!
Carriers/aegis should offer a blanket of protection, that is protect 9 squares near it.
A figher should have some X base radius.
A bomber should have some X distance.
There should be fighter escort for bombers which add a defensive factor for certain ranges... It could be called a bomber wing or whatever.
A tech should be added for jet engines. This would double the range of aircraft.
Then Stealth would have the same range as those with jet tech up grade or maybe one square further.
The range of both sea and air units should be scaled down/up for map size.
Aircraft should be able to take out ships!
Carriers/aegis should offer a blanket of protection, that is protect 9 squares near it.
Originally posted by Trip
There are numerous algorithms for each bomber to go through each turn for every tile while the AI is at war. If the AI has 20 bombers with, say, a range of 20, that means that the AI has to run however many processes for 400 tiles 20 times, for a total of 8000 times. Depending on what has to be done for each tile, those 8000 times can be pretty evil.
What they mean about the exponential increase is that, say, for 20 tile range, you have 8000 tiles. For 21 range, you have 8400. Not exponential, but certainly a lot more than before.
Of course, that's just a rough explanation, so don't go into all sorts of logarithmic details, etc., I'm just trying to prove a point.
Yeah I know. The size of the computation only goes up as O(n^2). Quite different than an exponential increase. For a range of, for example, 12 squares the number of calculations for an O(e^n) calc is 1000 times greater than for an O(n^2) calc. For a range of 50, the difference between the number of calcs for each is around 10^18.
So, there is a huge-ass difference between what was said earlier and what you just said. Big enough to make a difference in whether an increased range could be implemented. In other words, if the calc is exponential, we're screwed. If it's n^2, I don't see what the problem is.
Zachriel
Kaiser
I stand corrected.
(It's late and trying to play and post)
(It's late and trying to play and post)
Chinese American
Hamtastic Knight
n^2 is power
2^n is exponential
there's a huge difference
2^n is exponential
there's a huge difference
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
To be honest, I'm not sure what they did. If they do it exponentially, then it will be a lot easier on them, but makes machines crawl to a standstill the more things they have to compute. If they do it the way I described, it's a lot more work for them, but possible up to a much higher number. Since they haven't changed it already, I'm guessing they went with the former option.
Zachriel
Kaiser
Pathfinding is usually exponential, but it may reduce to a simpler power-law for bombers as they always take the shortest, straight-line path.
Nevertheless, a 10-sided map has 100 tiles, a 100-sided map has 10,000 tiles. Whatever used to take .1 seconds, now takes 10 seconds.
Nevertheless, a 10-sided map has 100 tiles, a 100-sided map has 10,000 tiles. Whatever used to take .1 seconds, now takes 10 seconds.
If i am right then this is why infinite bombardement range only applied to ICBM ( which bombard only city, right?) ? so pathfinding is easier in this case.
Edit: oups i am sorry i looked into civilopedia and ICBM can target anything on the map. I dont use nuke so i wasnt sure anyway.
Edit: oups i am sorry i looked into civilopedia and ICBM can target anything on the map. I dont use nuke so i wasnt sure anyway.
Zachriel
Kaiser
Good question. Just a couple possible reasons. Infinite range should be easier than a large, but finite range. All squares are within the set of possible targets in the first case, but not the second. This is probably similar to the reason they made rail travel of infinite speed. It makes the calculation much easier as every connected tile is equivalent.
Much of this discussion will become mute with the next generation of computers and computer games.
Do you think it is possible that.
A.i. use icbm only on ennemy city, so pathfinding for a.i is easier because it doesnt calculate all possible tile, only city tile.
So it would mean infinite bombardement range is applied only on city in a.i. calculation.
A.i. use icbm only on ennemy city, so pathfinding for a.i is easier because it doesnt calculate all possible tile, only city tile.
So it would mean infinite bombardement range is applied only on city in a.i. calculation.
At least this thread is shedding some light on the reasons why we have this limit.
well my mod is almost done... I have adjusted most of the unit movement rates to compensate for the size of the map (larger/detailed map - the more the movement rate should be)...
funny, my ships go farther than my aircraft?!?!
Here are the changes in movement rates, if anyone gets a chance look through it and let me know of any irregularity. As for bombers, jet fighters etc how can I try to balance this? Is infinite range a solution? Ideas anyone?
(Note: In the following list, the first number is the original and the second is the value that I changed it to, also the movement rate of roads has been reduced to 2)
o Paratrooper 1move 2 moves, 6range 8range
o Cruise Missile 2bombard Rng. 4bombard Rng.
o Tactical Nuke 6bombard Rng. 8bombard Rng.
o Fighter 4moves 6moves (want 8)
o Bomber 6moves 7moves (want 22)
o Helicopter 6moves 8moves (want 12)
o Jet Fighter 6moves 8moves (want 12)
o Stealth Fighter 6moves 8moves (want 14)
o Stealth Bomber 8moves 8moves (want 32)
well my mod is almost done... I have adjusted most of the unit movement rates to compensate for the size of the map (larger/detailed map - the more the movement rate should be)...
funny, my ships go farther than my aircraft?!?!
Here are the changes in movement rates, if anyone gets a chance look through it and let me know of any irregularity. As for bombers, jet fighters etc how can I try to balance this? Is infinite range a solution? Ideas anyone?
(Note: In the following list, the first number is the original and the second is the value that I changed it to, also the movement rate of roads has been reduced to 2)
o Paratrooper 1move 2 moves, 6range 8range
o Cruise Missile 2bombard Rng. 4bombard Rng.
o Tactical Nuke 6bombard Rng. 8bombard Rng.
o Fighter 4moves 6moves (want 8)
o Bomber 6moves 7moves (want 22)
o Helicopter 6moves 8moves (want 12)
o Jet Fighter 6moves 8moves (want 12)
o Stealth Fighter 6moves 8moves (want 14)
o Stealth Bomber 8moves 8moves (want 32)
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