Bombers are too powerful.

[Rameau's Nephew]

Originally posted by Sark6354201
1.) As soon as a civ discovers Flight, all other nations can build FLAK.

I'm sorry, but this is just a dumb idea. Are you saying that because Im in the tech lead that a nation just discovering rifles will be able to produce tons of flak to shoot down my planes? Or that backward nation that isnt even industrialized can build them?

Make Flak available with Replaceable Parts. That's probably the threashold tech required to actually build the machinery. Civs who haven't mastered the construction of airplanes, but can make heavy artillery probably know how to make guns that can shoot at airplanes.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Of course, only problem is that a little bit stupid AI would build a ton of Flak before enemies get aircrafts.

 

[Punkymonkey]

I don't think they're too powerful but finally have gotten a useful purpose. Now they can do real damage. You still need ground units to take a city so i don't see a problem with it

 

[Sark6354201]

"Make Flak available with Replaceable Parts."

This doensn't make sense, no military would design something to combat a threat that has not been invented yet... much less manufacture them.

 

[sabo]

I think he's talking about having flak before you discover flight, but after the AI has discovered flight

 

[Bluemofia]

well, time and time again proves air superiority. who ever dosen't own the skies, will have a tough time on the battlefield.

 

[rychan]

Well, even if you don't have the necessary technology to build flak, you should be able to buy flak from another player. Ideally. Certainly arms dealing is a major part of the world economy. There are probably 50, 100, 150 countries that buy fighter jets from Russia, US.. maybe some european countries are dealers now as well.

 

[Qpdaj]

Originally posted by rychan
On the other hand, if I get to wheel out a cannon on an opponent who's using catapults, I feel like the man.

Aye, me too!

 

[dexters]

the current system is fine. We're just going around in circles.

Getting flight or not getting flight is part of the strategic decision people have to make.

Last time I checked, this is still a strategy game.

 

[Craterus22]

Didn't get a chance to read entire thread - I have started playing around with mods that have fighters resource-free.

Think about it...

If the AI uses AS missions, at least there will be a chance that your stack of 15 bombers will run into some grief.

I hope they revamp air combat completely in the next version of the game.

Getting flight or not getting flight is part of the strategic decision people have to make.

In the regular game - the resource limitations are too harsh... just like the ground game there should be weaker non-resource dependant units available for the air war (able to fight on semi equal terms)

 

[Bluemofia]

the ai does use air superiority. i use jets to scan for fighters first, then bomb.

 

[tomart109]

Originally posted by Greyhawk1
Its just too easy...I kept thinking if I was in their position I would have to abandon the game - simply because of bombers.

This is great to hear!!

I'm facing a civ that got all of north america to itself, and became the biggest in the game, almost breaking through my Panama barrier in two wars...... They have a stack of 40 or 50 Cavalry (when you have to scroll the enemy stack, that's a bad sign...) just waiting to hit me again.

But I'm (finally) about to get bombers! Whew...!

 

[tomart109]

Originally posted by Sark6354201
1.) As soon as a civ discovers Flight, all other nations can build FLAK.

I'm sorry, but this is just a dumb idea.

Well, I just got introduced to the board game version of civ3, and that seems to be one of the basic, oversimplified mechanics of that game. When someone gets a new tech, everyone is considered to have it too. (Suddenly all spearmen are magically changed to swordsmen.) And my first reaction was that it was dumb, too.

 

[Oddible]

"Make Flak available with Replaceable Parts."

This doensn't make sense, no military would design something to combat a threat that has not been invented yet... much less manufacture them.

True, but on the same note, if a military that didn't have aircraft that saw enemy bombers devastating their units, they sure would find a way to fire high explosives into the air. If they can produce Artillery, they should be able to produce Flak.

"Make Flak available after anyone discovers Flight" is too simple I guess. They would have to have Replaceable Parts too.

 

[Bluemofia]

no, that should not be allowed. if you and 10 other civs are on one continent, and another civ is on a shrivled island, and no one has contacted them, and they are in the middle ages, and now they magically can get flak cannons, and they don't even have rifles and they have large anti air guns? what did their scientists discover to be a threat to build large advanced guns when they still can't get rifles, and deside to point the guns to shoot down anything in the air. for that civ, it is only used for shooting down pesky birds, but nothing else.

 

[Punkymonkey]

Originally posted by Craterus22

In the regular game - the resource limitations are too harsh... just like the ground game there should be weaker non-resource dependant units available for the air war (able to fight on semi equal terms)

Well, flight has historically only been available to those industriaized nation controlling lots of oil and we can see when countries lost their supplies how it adversely affected them and limited their air and motorized functions so i have no problems with the way it requires resources for certain units

 

[Admiral_Tarton]

Originally posted by Sark6354201
"Make Flak available with Replaceable Parts."

This doensn't make sense, no military would design something to combat a threat that has not been invented yet... much less manufacture them.

you research mass production and get carriers before you research flight

 

[Longasc]

Well, I think this is one of the easiest things solved.

I suggested land units not taking lethal damages in Cities or fortresses.

But even if this is not considered a solution, it is easy to mod the Standard rules simply by removing the lethal land bombardement of bombers, only one checkerbox.

The whole Flak issue arose because people asked for a way to counter nations that have a tech lead and get flight quite some techs earlier.

Admiral Tarton made a point with Carriers - I think that Flak should be made available much earlier than flight.

Why? To give those who lag behind a measure to defend themselves until they get flight themselves!


You can still hit them hard enough when they have only Flak, it is not really too strong...

Bombers make things easy. I level city after city, sometimes I have so many bombers that I can destroy cities nearly completely before my Tanks drive in to claim my rights of conquest...

I was not too much ahead in this game on Monarch level, and my military success would have been guaranteed even without bombers, BUT... bombers made things SO MUCH EASIER.

Well, I now think they may probably keep their lethal land bombardement, but even if I gave Techs for flight for free before declaring war, the fight was still in my favor.

But they could at least shoot down some bombers, the Ottomans got NO Flight from me, and I will wipe them out in 3 turns probably...

I divided bombers and troops equally between Babylon and Ottomans for Conquest, taking in mind the military and productive strength of both Countries. The Ottomans were somewhat superior, but they had no means to defend against bombers.

They got the shaft.

I think it should not be this easy. Having Cavalry before others and certain key technologies has always a great impact and is very advantageous, but bombers make for the biggest leap in power in the whole game.

 

[player1 fanatic]

...but bombers make for the biggest leap in power in the whole game.

No, that's Tanks and Modern Armor

 

[Longasc]

When Tanks arrive on the battlefield bombers have already done most of the work.

But I respect your opinion. I do not think that Modern Armor or Tanks need to be "nerfed". But bombers need to be balanced.