Boogaboo's C3C tales: tiny/small on Deity/Sid

[boogaboo]

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(Posts / subject)

1-6 / {Tiny,Deity}
7-25 / {Tiny,Sid} first attempts
26-44 / {Tiny, C3C Demigod / PTW Deity} - Beating Schon's record.
45-66 / Back to {Tiny,Sid}
67-83 / {Small,Deity}
84-end / {Small,Sid}

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Yes, C3C 1.22 is now installed.
Yes, Mapfinder is working at home.
Yes, I'm working.

But- when I get home today, I'm gonna start with tiny/deity on my C3C found maps.
No barb. Cold. Wet. Tiny. Me - Aztec... the AI's are gonna suffer today!
I play vs the Arabs and Portugal, since they seem one pair of a few decent choices for a rather quick game.
Perhaps the arabs being religious is not so good, but I don't see them actually succeeding to build a temple in the second city before it becomes razed..
Otherwise, the culture radius will grow to 2, and I will have a harder time buying/conquering the city.
Commercial, seafaring.. who are they kidding..?

What do I have to pass?
"1 DaveMcW 24791 1450 BC Conquest Tiny Aztec "

1450BC? Seems possible, but this is a new civ3 ! C3C!
We'll c..

 

[Moonsinger]

FYI: I just updated MapFinder last night and added combination luxury finder as you have suggested. You may want to download the last version if you want to look for any of the luxury at the starting location. Good luck on your new quest for Deity and Sid!

 

[boogaboo]

Great, godess!
Especially when I still run into MapFinder problemson my newly installed and patched C3C.. I will solve them myself as a hard-earning computer guy... or ask in the relevant forum if I can't..

I can boogie all night long! (and then fall down and cry).
Thanks for the thought!

 

[EMan]

Why have you found "Wet" to be preferable over "Dry" in the short games?.........This may be a totally dumb question......OR....may be enlightening!

OR.....is it "Dry" for Short-Short games and "Wet" for Short-Medium games?

 

[boogaboo]

hmmm... I've done many settings, and don't really have a list of prefrences, since my tactic is changing each setting, so I "switch" myself to that setting too... I think it doesn't matter a lot, but here it comes -

From the manual:
"The drier it is, the less forests, marshes, and jungle it will have."

Forests are ok by all means for production, and now I think I'll also be looking for furs for the 3 production in despotism.
This becomes true when I enter my GA and hope to reach 15 production in the capital. furs=forests..

marshes.. not quite familiar yet, but they are in the cold areas of the map (right?) making another part of the map unusable for the AI, which is what I want. (unless I go domination instead of conquest, but I'm not sure yet, don't wake anyone up).

jungles - bad for my JAGs, but also bad for AI settlement.

***The purpose of cold, marshes and jungles is that the AI's production will be slower (it is deity), and that the place for the AI to settle in is more known/predicted.

Furs will be VERY important, and actually tilt the balance the "dry" way!
I've just answered that to myself for the first time in an accurate way..
It's my way or the dryway..

ok. enough... late late late.. 3:36.. work..

 

[boogaboo]

Well, I've finished Call of Duty's missions (only as regular), and back at the civ3 HoF more often.

Surprisingly, I've managed to have a good game in my strange night session, and it is a tiny deity number 1 (C3C).
1910BC is the finish time, with a nice start (2 cows+river+near AI), good attacks (though not perfect), and a 1 by 1 treatment with the GA capacity of 1 JAG per turn in C3C.
Except the 4000BC and 1950BC saves, I also handed a 3500BC save of the great start, and a 2590BC one, where the Arabs were finished and the Portugese were the only left target.

It is a nice enough game to put as my first..
I'll stop doing 2 games, since I know people can cheat anyhow, and don't care so much for non-milking high scores (AFTER I make them )

Now for {tiny, sid}.

 

[boogaboo]

Hi people, and myself.

I want to share with you first a peice of strategy which I have not fully refined yet, but almost.
Some ideas have also been presented on SirPleb's Sid thread by SirPleb.
The basic idea when I try to early conquest on high levels is to avoid and control the enemy stack of warriors. (They are warriors, since I choose the AI's..)
On Sid level, there is a 24 warrior stack, 2 settlers and 4 workers(yummy )
Some points:
1. When war is declared the stack of warriors goes to the nearest city you own, unless they feel overpowered(?!) or THRETENED.
2. When some small portion of your army is near one of their towns, they feel THRETENED and move their stack to the thretened city location.
Sometimes it one needs one attack (successfull or not) on some city to scare the SHI-t out of him and the stack does a full reverse...
3. When the AI feels thretened, it will be much more willing to talk and pay for peace.
4. When an AI city is razed or captured, the AI is highly more likely to give cities for peace (even that I stand no chance against his army ).

One of the tricks I use is to leave 2 JAGs near an AI city, and when the AI's queue is too near to me, I get these JAGs on some place near the town, or even attack once, just to turn them back.

Also, I start a war by RAZING an AI city, so the eventual peace will usually produce another city (for peace ).
Thus, when I also threten them again, they take it seriously, although I was only joking !!! By then, they want peace, and they will give me a city to do that (and perhaps some slaves money techs, everything... please!).
After that... he is weak, time to war with second AI.. or am I already at war? Is there a settler of any nation to kill? Keep producing military!!!


Mayans or Aztec??

I'm having a bit of a trouble with doing early conquest on Sid level with Aztec.. (vs. only 2 AI's on tiny pangea)
I still think it can be done, but was thinking of the alternative - the Mayans.

They are agricultural, like the Aztec, and can also produce a very early GA with their Javelin thrower (JAV )

Changes from Aztec : the 2/2/1 JAV (slaves catcher) is definitly better than the 1/1/2 JAG, but costs more and upgardes less, since the Mayans are not militaristic, which also causes barracks building to be an issue.
At war, JAVs are better but slower, which needs more precise technique to avoid running into the AI's queues of warriors..
The Mayans are also Indoustrious, which should be of effect in the GA when the capital is a city, and mainly a bonus to workers and slaves.
This does not seem a big bonus, but I will have MANY slaves.

One of the difficulties I have yet to unravel is how to replace masonry and pottery with warrior code early.
This is a must for the Mayans, and I ain't doing no research at Sid.
Also the barracks is quite a downer, but I think playing with Aztec has showed me it needs supreme luck to beat Sid early on.
I'm not sure if Aztec is therefor better than the Mayans.

Please tell me your thoughts about it!
EDIT: I'll open a thread about this in strategy & tips. post there, here, doesn't matter.

Chaim.

 

[SirPleb]

That is an interesting approach to getting early Sid victories - completely control the AI stack movements. Hmmm, yes indeed

I've gone through all the early UUs to see if any others might be of interest. I found just three which seem possible: Aztecs, Maya, and Egypt. All of the other early UUs compare unfavorably with one of those three.

The Aztecs are the only one of those three with the militaristic advantage, and who don't need a tech to be learned. They also have the cheapest UU.

With Maya vs. Aztecs you lose a few things: the UU is slower, it costs 30s to build, they aren't militaristic, and you need Warrior Code. You gain enslavement and industrious, and an attack 2 unit. It is a shame that the Javelin Thrower has defense 2 - you pay for this in the unit's expense but you don't need it.

With Egypt vs. Aztecs you lose a few things: the UU costs 20s to build, they aren't militaristic nor agricultural, and you need The Wheel, and horses. You gain industrious and an attack 2 unit instead of attack 1. You need to go for maps without much mountain, marsh, or jungle since those are impassable to War Chariots.

A two-move UU seems very beneficial to your strategy. I think the disadvantages of the Maya are too big vs. the Aztecs - you could build 2 2-move Jaguar Warriors with the same shields as 1 1-move Javelin Thrower.

I think Egypt might be a better alternative. You could build 4 Jaguar Warriors for 3 War Chariots. But the War Chariots are stronger attackers - even without a barracks they'd be stronger than Jags built with a barracks. So losing militaristic is probably not a big thing.

The biggest obstacle to playing Maya or Egypt is getting that extra tech. I haven't been able to think of a solution. Goody huts will not give tech at Sid level. 50 turns is too long. The only choice I can see is beating the tech out of a rival. But if you can do that very quickly before having any special unit, you probably wouldn't be considering these alternatives at all

 

[boogaboo]

SirPleb,

There is a huge problem with the Egyptians - I might be able to trade the wheel (and I am sometimes successful in getting warrior code as Mayans),
but getting horses connected is way too much.
I still prefer to join my worker on the first turn to build the barracks more quickly, since the beggining is very important, and I need my UU then.

There is virtually noone to connect the horses even if there were any, and I still haven't got a unit to catch slaves, on which I'm very dependent for roads.

The slaves issue seem to turn around with the Mayans, which also catch slaves. This is a big bonus for my style of play, although the shield cost is the real bummer.

I thought also on purposely colliding into the stack of AI -
Imagine me building 5-7 JAVs and declaring war.
I can kill all 48 AI warriors in a few turns (I do have barracks and 2 defence fortified is 3 defence..).
This way I can weaken them tremendously at the beggining and gain tons of slaves in the process.
They will also consider themselves quite weak, as opposed to the great army they once owned, producing easier peace.
Then, my plan is to use the slaves for roads and cut the 1-move loss I suffer.

I'm still in a dilema and trying stuff other than putting MapFinder to work.. quite depressing.

 

[SirPleb]

I see what you mean boogaboo. I guess it is down to the Aztecs or Maya. Good luck getting the Maya to work - if you can't defeat the obstacles there then it will be down to just the Aztecs...

 

[zerksees]

but getting horses connected is way too much.

Unless you put your city on horses - which you can't see yet, but maybe by the time your second city comes around you will have the right techs...

 

[boogaboo]

Unless you put your city on horses - which you can't see yet, but maybe by the time your second city comes around you will have the right techs...

I don't build a second city, just army.
What is still possible is to work with the worker instead of joining him.
I'm already doing it with the Mayans, since they are too, industrious.
I'm also doing it because the AI researches Warrior Code until 3300BC, when the Barracks is finished even without joining.

I'm no so sure I can get the wheel though and connect horses until such a date - I need a lot of luck for the horses.
I'll perhaps also try Egyptians, since I'm playing 2 hours a day, and not the usual marathon I was in...

 

[Poly-Akryll]

i got a question: why dont take inkas? their chasqui is similar to the jag in his stats but he can move a bit faster if u take a young map with lots of mountains though he costs 20 shields instead of 15...and of course u dont have cheap barracks BUT u would only save 1 unit per barrack and u get a scout because of exp. and so u can find ur ennemies early AND what i think is lots more important u can move into huts and u will find lots of interesting things there...

 

[Jurimax]

Yes you will, if playing the lower levels. Even expansionist civs don't get any real benefits (not very often that is) on the higher levels.

 

[boogaboo]

i got a question: why dont take inkas? their chasqui is similar to the jag in his stats but he can move a bit faster if u take a young map with lots of mountains though he costs 20 shields instead of 15...and of course u dont have cheap barracks BUT u would only save 1 unit per barrack and u get a scout because of exp. and so u can find ur ennemies early AND what i think is lots more important u can move into huts and u will find lots of interesting things there...

As Jurimax said, in Sid level I won't find anything useful from huts.
I've already gone for the arab, giving them to be expansionists, but putting "NO barbarians"..
The 20 instead of 15 will just be a burden, and also the expansionist trait.

Mayan experience - bad..
It is too hard to keep up with the AI build rate in Sid.
I thought if I killed 24 warriors I could have a nice attack then.
I was wrong, since they immediately build new imroved units and come right back at me.
I can't really progress into their territory, and clashing into their stack does not help.
Must have a quick unit.
I think Aztec will finally be the only choice, but I will still test Egypt.

 

[zerksees]

I don't build a second city, just army.

Oh. I suppose I should have known that. The Egypt approach might be a little slow to develop then, considering how quickly you want to end these games. I also thought you might let the AI build your city with horses, but it would probably take too long to build archers or some other units to take it.

Have you beaten Sid level yet?

 

[boogaboo]

Oh. I suppose I should have known that. The Egypt approach might be a little slow to develop then, considering how quickly you want to end these games. I also thought you might let the AI build your city with horses, but it would probably take too long to build archers or some other units to take it.

Have you beaten Sid level yet?

Egypt could be a good approach.
I just have to bet the horses are there and trade the wheel.
Both can be done until 3000BC if there are horses (Egypt is IND, so workers are quick).

No, I haven't beaten it yet, but it is just a matter of approach.
I could win later on easily with domination on tiny, but I'm looking for the fastest victory here.
I had an "almost" with the Aztec, and estimate it could be done somewhere between 1000-2000 BC.
I'm not willing to go out of the ancient age when I know it could be done.
With the Mayans/Egypt, I don't join my worker, and with the Aztec I do, but the second city is only a conquered/deal city from the AI.
Sometimes I keep it for maintnance and score, and when the AI stack comes too close.. I abandon, and the stack is just hanging in the middle of nowhere.
Slaves also are great for making the AI move the wrong way..
All gambits are allowed to avoid the stack!

 

[boogaboo]

OK!

I've lost hope for the Mayans.
I'm going Egyptians (C.B and masonry).
Japan starts with the wheel for trade (with my masonry), and ceremonial burial.
Portugal starts with pottery and alphabet, and no other advantage (except the wretched triremes).

England just lies there with no real advantage over the Portugese, except a bit less corruption, and will be my second AI when I play with the Aztec on this settings.
I'm not going vs. the Arabs in Sid no more, since they are religious and build their temples to make radius 2 culture.
Then, it is harder to surprise even with 2-moves units.

So, trade with Japan, connect horses while building barracks, then gogogo War Chariots!! Too many settlers all around the map on Sid..
More War Chariots!!

I must concentrate on the Japs first, or they might reach their Samurai..
As one Leonard Cohen once said..
First we take Tokyo, then the Portugese!

 

[boogaboo]

Just a quicky -
I've fixed a mpafinder issue - my cd-rom doesn't always work ( ).
When conquest is restarted by mapfinder, sometimes it fails, and mapfinder stops.

Chaim, going for a long mapfinder run on the egyptians.
(2 cows in radius 1). That's it.

 

[Offa]

Your analysis of early wars is fascinating. I presume much of what you say is applicable to regular (ie non hof) games in that it may be a good tactic to try very early wars at Sid/deity even allowing for the insane disparity between the human and AI forces. I am usually far too afraid to attack very early.