Gosha190
King
Ribannah
I'v seen your post, but currently I am shot in time. Wait, please, one or two days! Thanx!
I'v seen your post, but currently I am shot in time. Wait, please, one or two days! Thanx!
BOTM 14 Final Spoiler - Game Submitted or Abandoned
- Thread starter DynamicSpirit
- Start date
That's the second time in BOTM14 that I've read someone putting UN in a city that will potentially be gifted to someone else. Can someone please explain why this is done?
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,995
I find it easier to just tech the MM line and gift techs to the person you want building it.
Of course, that's probably slower in XOTM formats on any but the highest difficulties.
Of course, that's probably slower in XOTM formats on any but the highest difficulties.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Or the person you want to build it may be your friend's worst enemy ... where all those trade with worst enemy negmods are undesireable.
In that case, you might have to build it and let the enemy take if from you, rather that gift it ...
Oh, the nuances ...
dV
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,995
Yeah, that's why I qualified it with "high difficulty" and "easier, but slower".
AIs that are given mass media when everyone else is in want of radio are almost guaranteed to build it.
As for diplo demerits...most of the time you can give this line to someone who that won't be a problem.
However, if one is playing for a fastest UN spot in an XOTM, you don't want to do what I'm saying. You want that 1-2 GE, chops, and if at all possible $$$$$ buy then gift, if gifting is needed.
Well, it helped this one, as I was far enough ahead in tech to stuff monty when he tried to attack
I think I had about 10GAs. all cities went legendary within 2 turns. And only two main religions.
The main reason for going cultural was I couldn't be bothered with troop movements on an archipelago map. The main reason going CE was because of the leader traits.
jesusin, contender. Goal: fastest diplo (UN). Result: 1395AD diplo victory. 190K points.
At 500AD I had 0 cottages, 1 Pyramids and 0 wars.
Revolted to slavery+OR in a GAge to whip 33 people into Universities.
2 cities in W small island, one from barbs.
Built Oxford and took Astro from Liber 805AD.
Everybody is hindu but SB and Pacal, budist like me, and Musa, jewish. If haven't caught hindu yet, but I will very soon... won't I? DeGaule, hindu, will no doubt be my rival in UN.
Random Event: +3 between DeG and Sul, this means big, big problem. I hate my whole strategy depending on randomness.
Circumnavigated.
In my usual mistake I was about to dow with a disembarking force of 7 units. I refrained 10 turns, to dow only with overwhelming force. Dowed SB 920AD with 18 units. He would capitulate 1010AD but I took all of his cities 5 turns later.
The Random Event makes me think I won't be able to do a peaceful diplo victory, so I take a detour from my MMbeeline to get rifles. Later on, I thought this was a mistake. Later still, I thought it saved my game.
Pacal has been my best friend and we have traded so much to each other that now that I have Rifles he's got Grens. I won't take him.
1000AD stats: 12city, 115pop, 6wor, 37units(mace,mus,kni, soon rifl),1galleon, all resou but marble. 8Lux, 9health. 8GP,3WW, 2NW, 0GG. FPG: 244-119-872. 630sust bpt, 97GPPpt, 300g. 3Relig, not the main one. 0cottages used. 30Techs: Rifling, Astro, Liber, Econo, GunP. 18hours.
Sul offered to be my vassal voluntarily. I accepted, it was a nice way to solve the Random Event problem. But everyone else got a -2 with me. Now I had a problem. 1peace+2OB+4trade+2resources-2vassals is +7, not enough. And most of the AI wouldn't have voted for me even at +8... what to do now? I still have no hindu. It would be so easy, convert to hindu, take a Musa's city, buidl UN, gift the city back in the peace treaty, let all the hindus vote for me... but I don't have the religion.
Musa is eveyone's enemy, but I only have got 1GE, although tried many times. And anyway, I wouldn't have the votes without being hindu. I ask my vassal to gift me his hindu city in my continent, he won't. I have 29% of the world pop.
TAke a barb city I don't want, almost pressed raze, but there was an option "gift to Sul", I did, it saved me his good attitude!
Built a lot of rifles, -27gpt at 0%, dowed Musa, bite the bullet when the RNG takes half of my stack at 80-90% odds, take Timbuctu, approach the closest city, he is ready to capitulate... I attack first (why? oh, why?), terribly bad RNG, lose m and his units, don't take the city, accept his capitulation because:
1. Gifting him UN wouldn't be enough to get others' votes without hinduism.
2. He would capitulate, but he wouldn't gift a hindu city for peace.
3. I had brought more people to the war and he would capitulate to others.
By the way, the shared war turns are useless if the war is not long.
Of course, the following turn hindu spread to one of my newly founded cities.
Pacal loves DeG more than me now. Building UN in Timbuctu and gifting to Musa would get me Pacal's votes, but would lose me Musa's... not enough.
What would you have done? I need help!
1275AD, I have radio. I get lazy and I stop adding up my pop in F1 screen. Instead, I just look at the points, down right, not realising that pop-count includes not only my pop, but also 50% of my vassals pop! So I mistakenly believe I'm close to 60% with my vassals. I abandon fast research to enphasize food. I settle new cities everywhere. I take barb cities everywhere. I am tired. I'm in a hurry since it is my turn to play SGOTM. I play carelessly. My untis are sleeping in Musa's land. I want to win fast in RL. Since I believe I almost have the votes, I build UN in my capital. I don't revolt to HR to start accumulating shared civics points with Pacal because it would take 3 turns and I almost have the pop...
MM 1305AD. UN built 1310AD with 1GE and 5 chops. I'll soon get TajMaj, let's not revolt to HR just yet... I am elected SG, I have 52% percent of the votes, I realise my mistake, I want to cry. I go to sleep.
Two weeks go by. I play my (magnificent) SGOTM turnset. I open the save again. 4 days left.
Now that UN is in my capital there's no point in going hindu. HR would take a lot of turns to get me Pacal's votes. I have rifles. Monte has lbs. Why am I so timid? Killing other civ's people seems so wrong, when I could be whipping my own people into cathedrals instead!
Why haven't I being attacking all this time anyway?
Gift Demo to DeG so that he gets out of HR to his favourite civic, handing me Pacal's votes, 0% science and all merchants after that.
Dow Monty, distribute my units very thin in order to take several cities at the same time, miserably fail in all of them by 1 single unit... How can lbs win the battle more than 50% of the times when the game says I have 85% changces, even if they have a free shot? Reorganize. Upgrade my maces and Muskets to rifles. Concentrate more units. Take cities.
Sul gets Taj Maj, puaj. No HR for me then.
Voting happens every 8 turns, I expected 9, since it is 6 in Normal Speed. Choose voting for victory, I vote for me. Take two more Monte cities. He capitulates. Now...
- The voting has already taken place at the begining of this turn
- The counting of the votes will happen next turn, when he is my vassal and has to vote for me
- ...but the votes are in the box already, he can't change his vote now!
- ...but he is my vassal, he must
-...
-...
Press enter, he abstained, I am short of votes. Had I started the war 1 turn sooner I would have won 8 turns sooner! No time to cry, the clock is ticking.
8 turns pass, I'm countinouslymonitoring my victory margin and emphasizing food. I have gifted resources to my vassals so that they grow bigger.
682 votes total, I get 437 (half of them mine, the rest from my vassals), 422 needed.
I feel bad. Much slower than it should have been. Also it doesn't feel like a true diplo, vassals make self-voting possible again. I don't like vassals. They are a good addition to the game only if you want to win by conquest.
In my diplo games I feel I am not in control of the situation. Random Events, sudden vassalizations and non-spreading religions make fun of me. I need some help. What should I have done differently? What would you have done?
At 500AD I had 0 cottages, 1 Pyramids and 0 wars.
Revolted to slavery+OR in a GAge to whip 33 people into Universities.
2 cities in W small island, one from barbs.
Built Oxford and took Astro from Liber 805AD.
Everybody is hindu but SB and Pacal, budist like me, and Musa, jewish. If haven't caught hindu yet, but I will very soon... won't I? DeGaule, hindu, will no doubt be my rival in UN.
Random Event: +3 between DeG and Sul, this means big, big problem. I hate my whole strategy depending on randomness.
Circumnavigated.
In my usual mistake I was about to dow with a disembarking force of 7 units. I refrained 10 turns, to dow only with overwhelming force. Dowed SB 920AD with 18 units. He would capitulate 1010AD but I took all of his cities 5 turns later.
The Random Event makes me think I won't be able to do a peaceful diplo victory, so I take a detour from my MMbeeline to get rifles. Later on, I thought this was a mistake. Later still, I thought it saved my game.
Pacal has been my best friend and we have traded so much to each other that now that I have Rifles he's got Grens. I won't take him.
1000AD stats: 12city, 115pop, 6wor, 37units(mace,mus,kni, soon rifl),1galleon, all resou but marble. 8Lux, 9health. 8GP,3WW, 2NW, 0GG. FPG: 244-119-872. 630sust bpt, 97GPPpt, 300g. 3Relig, not the main one. 0cottages used. 30Techs: Rifling, Astro, Liber, Econo, GunP. 18hours.
Sul offered to be my vassal voluntarily. I accepted, it was a nice way to solve the Random Event problem. But everyone else got a -2 with me. Now I had a problem. 1peace+2OB+4trade+2resources-2vassals is +7, not enough. And most of the AI wouldn't have voted for me even at +8... what to do now? I still have no hindu. It would be so easy, convert to hindu, take a Musa's city, buidl UN, gift the city back in the peace treaty, let all the hindus vote for me... but I don't have the religion.
Musa is eveyone's enemy, but I only have got 1GE, although tried many times. And anyway, I wouldn't have the votes without being hindu. I ask my vassal to gift me his hindu city in my continent, he won't. I have 29% of the world pop.
TAke a barb city I don't want, almost pressed raze, but there was an option "gift to Sul", I did, it saved me his good attitude!
Built a lot of rifles, -27gpt at 0%, dowed Musa, bite the bullet when the RNG takes half of my stack at 80-90% odds, take Timbuctu, approach the closest city, he is ready to capitulate... I attack first (why? oh, why?), terribly bad RNG, lose m and his units, don't take the city, accept his capitulation because:
1. Gifting him UN wouldn't be enough to get others' votes without hinduism.
2. He would capitulate, but he wouldn't gift a hindu city for peace.
3. I had brought more people to the war and he would capitulate to others.
By the way, the shared war turns are useless if the war is not long.
Of course, the following turn hindu spread to one of my newly founded cities.
Pacal loves DeG more than me now. Building UN in Timbuctu and gifting to Musa would get me Pacal's votes, but would lose me Musa's... not enough.
What would you have done? I need help!
1275AD, I have radio. I get lazy and I stop adding up my pop in F1 screen. Instead, I just look at the points, down right, not realising that pop-count includes not only my pop, but also 50% of my vassals pop! So I mistakenly believe I'm close to 60% with my vassals. I abandon fast research to enphasize food. I settle new cities everywhere. I take barb cities everywhere. I am tired. I'm in a hurry since it is my turn to play SGOTM. I play carelessly. My untis are sleeping in Musa's land. I want to win fast in RL. Since I believe I almost have the votes, I build UN in my capital. I don't revolt to HR to start accumulating shared civics points with Pacal because it would take 3 turns and I almost have the pop...
MM 1305AD. UN built 1310AD with 1GE and 5 chops. I'll soon get TajMaj, let's not revolt to HR just yet... I am elected SG, I have 52% percent of the votes, I realise my mistake, I want to cry. I go to sleep.
Two weeks go by. I play my (magnificent) SGOTM turnset. I open the save again. 4 days left.
Now that UN is in my capital there's no point in going hindu. HR would take a lot of turns to get me Pacal's votes. I have rifles. Monte has lbs. Why am I so timid? Killing other civ's people seems so wrong, when I could be whipping my own people into cathedrals instead!
Why haven't I being attacking all this time anyway? Gift Demo to DeG so that he gets out of HR to his favourite civic, handing me Pacal's votes, 0% science and all merchants after that.
Dow Monty, distribute my units very thin in order to take several cities at the same time, miserably fail in all of them by 1 single unit... How can lbs win the battle more than 50% of the times when the game says I have 85% changces, even if they have a free shot? Reorganize. Upgrade my maces and Muskets to rifles. Concentrate more units. Take cities.
Sul gets Taj Maj, puaj. No HR for me then.
Voting happens every 8 turns, I expected 9, since it is 6 in Normal Speed. Choose voting for victory, I vote for me. Take two more Monte cities. He capitulates. Now...
- The voting has already taken place at the begining of this turn
- The counting of the votes will happen next turn, when he is my vassal and has to vote for me
- ...but the votes are in the box already, he can't change his vote now!
- ...but he is my vassal, he must
-...
-...
Press enter, he abstained, I am short of votes. Had I started the war 1 turn sooner I would have won 8 turns sooner! No time to cry, the clock is ticking.
8 turns pass, I'm countinouslymonitoring my victory margin and emphasizing food. I have gifted resources to my vassals so that they grow bigger.
682 votes total, I get 437 (half of them mine, the rest from my vassals), 422 needed.
I feel bad. Much slower than it should have been. Also it doesn't feel like a true diplo, vassals make self-voting possible again. I don't like vassals. They are a good addition to the game only if you want to win by conquest.
In my diplo games I feel I am not in control of the situation. Random Events, sudden vassalizations and non-spreading religions make fun of me. I need some help. What should I have done differently? What would you have done?
Adonias
Warlord
The only real scewup I can see is the one in 1310. All the things you mention in the last line are part of the game.
- Could you have built (and you probably did) a city very close to a civ with the world religion (and possibly better, the civ that had the shrine)?
- Don't you get separate points for gifting civs a city or techs (separate form +4 trade)
- Couldn't you have more effectively dogpiled on Mansa, thus gaining mutual struggle points?
- Could you have asked/bribed other civs to change civics?
Other than that, you're game was quite solid I guess. Love your write-up also
- Could you have built (and you probably did) a city very close to a civ with the world religion (and possibly better, the civ that had the shrine)?
- Don't you get separate points for gifting civs a city or techs (separate form +4 trade)
- Couldn't you have more effectively dogpiled on Mansa, thus gaining mutual struggle points?
- Could you have asked/bribed other civs to change civics?
Other than that, you're game was quite solid I guess. Love your write-up also
Gosha190
King
Gosha190
King
Ribannah
here is my original reply to your post:
Here is English version (thanx to Lexad, who helped me with translation!)
here is my original reply to your post:
Spoiler :
Here is English version (thanx to Lexad, who helped me with translation!)
Spoiler :
As I suspect you may have gathered, you don't need to. You are welcome to open any of your saves to look at without making any moves at any point. The restriction is that if you make any moves (other than reversible ones like changing the science slider) then you must save the game before you exit.
Htadus
A and L's dad
An aimless Game from the begining to the end. Beelined to.......every branch of the tech tree and finally finished with a diplomatic win in 1849, one and half a century after building the UN.
Only Mansa consistantly voted for me. DeGaul was my annoyed opponent and just a turn before the first vote, my buddy (a very pleased) Sulie decided to come attack my captured Aztac Cities with just 5 wimpy units when I had nearly 20 highly promoted rifles about to be promoted to infantry.
What was his algoritum computing? oye? He became a Vassel with one city as well as
Two thing I did in this game, that I was proud of.
1 Ship chaining from Pacals old Capital to Aztec land that would deliver 3 units every two turns. I could have added 4 more gallions and done 3 each turn but I was not building units that seriously.
2. After DoWing Monty and taking his northern most city with manly muskets and trebs. My forward units saw a stack of nearly 50 units heading my way. Realizing the fact I did not have enough units to hold the city, I decided to attack two other smaller stacks of about 4 to 3 units in the open. This sort of worked since next turn he was ready for peace. Then after the required number of turns passed, I DoWed Monty again but my 15 muskets are now rifles, many with 4 stars and one with medic. They all have been fortified for more than 5 turns. So I just let him bring his very impressive stack of, Maces, Knights, trebs, cats, Pikes and UU. It was very nerve wrecking to watch.
Anyways again I missed my only last minute target of getting over 100k points for a Diplo game and missed the Taj and the AP for which I had the techs first
. I wonder if I should start drinking since I play as if I am drunk? My friend swears that will help. 
(If I insulted anyone, ur....I did not intend to and I am already regretting it but do not want to delete the text.....since it takes me forever to type with 2.5 fingers of each hand)
Oh yeah...I guess the UN win option does not come up when you have about 70% of the vote as many of you have discussed in the past. It is true! So I had to "Liberate" many cities. Phew I had 4 hours to go and it was 1AM and I had no idea why the vote does not pop up. Duh...
Sleep......it is way overated. Ok my wife is right, I should get some sleep because I am totaly delirious at the moment. May be not a good time to start the current GoTM or BoTM or WoTM or.................
wait self, the last is not out yet.
Only Mansa consistantly voted for me. DeGaul was my annoyed opponent and just a turn before the first vote, my buddy (a very pleased) Sulie decided to come attack my captured Aztac Cities with just 5 wimpy units when I had nearly 20 highly promoted rifles about to be promoted to infantry.
What was his algoritum computing? oye? He became a Vassel with one city as well asTwo thing I did in this game, that I was proud of.
1 Ship chaining from Pacals old Capital to Aztec land that would deliver 3 units every two turns. I could have added 4 more gallions and done 3 each turn but I was not building units that seriously.
2. After DoWing Monty and taking his northern most city with manly muskets and trebs. My forward units saw a stack of nearly 50 units heading my way. Realizing the fact I did not have enough units to hold the city, I decided to attack two other smaller stacks of about 4 to 3 units in the open. This sort of worked since next turn he was ready for peace. Then after the required number of turns passed, I DoWed Monty again but my 15 muskets are now rifles, many with 4 stars and one with medic. They all have been fortified for more than 5 turns. So I just let him bring his very impressive stack of, Maces, Knights, trebs, cats, Pikes and UU. It was very nerve wrecking to watch.
Anyways again I missed my only last minute target of getting over 100k points for a Diplo game and missed the Taj and the AP for which I had the techs first
. I wonder if I should start drinking since I play as if I am drunk? My friend swears that will help. (If I insulted anyone, ur....I did not intend to and I am already regretting it but do not want to delete the text.....since it takes me forever to type with 2.5 fingers of each hand) Oh yeah...I guess the UN win option does not come up when you have about 70% of the vote as many of you have discussed in the past. It is true! So I had to "Liberate" many cities. Phew I had 4 hours to go and it was 1AM and I had no idea why the vote does not pop up.
Duh...Sleep......it is way overated. Ok my wife is right, I should get some sleep because I am totaly delirious at the moment. May be not a good time to start the current GoTM or BoTM or WoTM or.................
wait self, the last is not out yet.
Harok
Vagabond
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2005
- Messages
- 271
I agree with Gosha that seems to be a very good time.
Vassals and Random Events can be real diplo game killers.When I play diplo games I usually ignore religions and go for the bonuses you did but I also try getting some + relations for mutual military struggle with as many civs as I can and also make sure to adopt favorite civics. I LOVE when civs ask for things or even demand things in a diplo game as that is a free + relation. The one thing I don't do that I know I should learn to accept is that you may sometimes need to gift the UN city, I've never done it but can certainly see the advantages.
Other than that I think you played an excellent game, great tech pace and planning.
urbis
Chieftain
Space victory 1950AD.
Took out Pascal easily with swords and axes. Then took the 2 or 3 Native American cities that got founded on my landmass (which had been divested as a colony, ironically, as Americans under Lincoln). Had a fleet and a stack of Maces and Catapults ready to assault Sitting Bull's homelands, then got an unusual urge (for me) to become peaceful. So backed off and decided to go for something that I thought (incorrectly it turns out) would be unusual in this game - a spaceship victory.
Maintained an easy lead all the way in all respects except culture. Need to pay attention to all the posts from people who got an earlier space victory to refine my game. Founded 3 cities on the big island to the east, and 1 little city far to the NW to get aluminium late in the game. Otherwise resisted the temptation to settle lots of islands or attack anyone till spaceship launched. Then, checking victory conditions, had the unpleasant discovery that the Ottomans were going to win a culture victory before my spaceship arrived - launched a successful (but painful for a peacelover, and timeconsuming) invasion to prevent this.
Most interesting thing in the game was when a desperate Monty, who I'd been ignoring, launched a surprise attack, with big amphibious assault stack, against my much superior defenders on the island to the east:
Took out Pascal easily with swords and axes. Then took the 2 or 3 Native American cities that got founded on my landmass (which had been divested as a colony, ironically, as Americans under Lincoln). Had a fleet and a stack of Maces and Catapults ready to assault Sitting Bull's homelands, then got an unusual urge (for me) to become peaceful. So backed off and decided to go for something that I thought (incorrectly it turns out) would be unusual in this game - a spaceship victory.
Maintained an easy lead all the way in all respects except culture. Need to pay attention to all the posts from people who got an earlier space victory to refine my game. Founded 3 cities on the big island to the east, and 1 little city far to the NW to get aluminium late in the game. Otherwise resisted the temptation to settle lots of islands or attack anyone till spaceship launched. Then, checking victory conditions, had the unpleasant discovery that the Ottomans were going to win a culture victory before my spaceship arrived - launched a successful (but painful for a peacelover, and timeconsuming) invasion to prevent this.
Most interesting thing in the game was when a desperate Monty, who I'd been ignoring, launched a surprise attack, with big amphibious assault stack, against my much superior defenders on the island to the east:
Thank you both for your ideas.
Yes, vassals, random events and such are part of the game. But they have never come close to derailing my cultural victory or my conquest victory. I feel I'm in control in those cases, while I feel the danger of losing the game while I play for diplo.
With Pyramids and GLH, I built dozens of cities in islands... that got budism one after the other, not hindu. Bad RNG, I guess.
1 single point from gifting city or gifting tons of techs wouldn't have helped much.
I did dogpile on Musa. Since the war lasted a whole lot of 4 turns, it did provide a +1 while the war lasted, but it disapeared when the war ended.
I tried to bribe DeGaule into his favourite civic, after gifting him the required tech. At the beggining the option wasn't there. I think it is due to his civic changes less than 5 turns before. After a while, the option was there, but it was redded out, we don't like you enough or something. I've heard there is a bug that makes it impossible to bribe civic switching.
I had accepted some demands from others, but they had long forgotten it.
To get common civics points I would have needed DeGaule to change to his favourite civic, which proved impossible. Or addopting HR for SB, who was a bit too dead to have appreciated it. Or addopting HR for Pacal, but he loved DeGaule too much to matter (it would have taken too long to get to +5 shared civics) and anyway, till I built UN I needed to stay into Representation to research, since I had zero cottages.
Some of you think it was a good diplo game. I can't agree, not a single civ voted for me on their own will!
Gosha190
King
Some of you think it was a good diplo game. I can't agree, not a single civ voted for me on their own will!
good game and good finish date are two BIG differences
I said "respectable result". I can not say anything else about your game because I did not read your post attentively and did not look your saves
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