[BTS] BOTM 200 Final Spoiler - Game Submitted

[SittinDown]

Contender.

Lost to Space in 1919.

I realized around 1600 that winning was going to be very hard, but I wanted to finish anyway. I had 20 cities, and had taken out both of the Greeks next to me and got Hera friendly.

I thought maybe if I grabbed sushi I could boost population enough to pull it off, but I screwed up my GPP points, and I never got a single merchant the whole game, despite a couple of high odds GPP pops.

So, I went for UN. But the Cyclopses had so much population, that there was no way to do it without going to war, and they were so far ahead in tech that it wasn't going to happen. I took over most of the Titans hoping to get more land and population, but it didn't matter. I couldn't even win secretary general with me, posidon, and hera voting for me.

As a last ditch effort, I went to US, went all money, and nuked the Cyclopses about 12 times, but even then it only brought it to even, and they took about 5 of my cities before they won space.

 

[Pangaea]

Many exciting reports!

Continuing the Contender save. Had killed off Achilles in 400AD or so, and declared on Sarpedon soon after. It was a bit messy, but we took two cities including his capital before getting peace for construction. Pumped out elephants and some catas the next 10 turns, re-declared in 1100AD and quickly killed him off after that. Hera next on the chopping block. Didn't want to kill her off entirely, though, also because she had some cities far into the eastern ice, with zero resources. But they prevented barbs, and I had more than enough problems with those in the beginning. We did take all the cities worth keeping, though. She gave us Engineering for peace (another reason to stop the war, as castles are super annoying).

Changed plans from the 1000AD update of going for Civil Service, to bulbing Astro. It became clear it was needed. Didn't get two GS for it though, because Poseidon kept pipping me to new great people, moving the goalposts. But I had one, then we teched the rest of the way, a little before 1300AD. Shortly after this, before we had been able to get caravels far, Arges-Brontes found us with caravels, and within a few turns they proved the world was round. I wasn't able to buy maps yet, or I forgot (we didn't have Paper tho | edit: I remember now, we didn't have to buy it because we ran out while getting to Astro and upgrading two triremes, and obviously didn't want to trade away Astro, which was the only thing we had on them). Holy moly what a pair of giants. 30-odd cities between them, and they were huge (I learnt when we traded maps). Way ahead in tech too, although nothing too scary yet. Unfortunately they went Mercantilism pretty soon after we got Astro, so that was disappointing. Think we got 5 turns from one of them, while the other changed a bit later. They didn't leave Mercantilism until very, very long after.

At this point it may have been possible to take them on militarily, for now we had monopoly on Astro. But they had knights and castles, and we didn't really have a suitable army, so it would be a very long slog, and possibly a suicidal mission. Instead, I decided to go for Diplo. It was reassuring to see we didn't have the -50 or -100 diplo hit with the Cyclopes. However, their pop was huge. Slightly over 50% when we met them, while we had 28% or thereabouts. We would have to gain 100, probably 150 pops on them. But that wouldn't be enough if we just voted for each other. Therefore, I had to use a trick I recently criticised, namely to build the UN and then gift it away. Hence, why Hera was left alive. Another candidate appeared as well once we learnt Physics and could 'scout' out their not-so-warm Hell. There is a saying about that... maybe not good news? Toku was an entirely appropriate leader for Hades tho!

As an aside, this almost left me in stitches (from the post-game screen). Have to admit I was not aware this is how things played out...

Spoiler :

The Arges crew won Lib in 1390AD and picked Economics. The turn before I had traded them Astro, because I was worried they would pick that. Figured it was best to get something for it. We got Edu, and I got up Oxford in the capital. It actually didn't take all that long after this before the Cyclopes declared war on the snowmen. I don't often see amphibious AI invasions, never mind successful ones, but they pulled it off here. Did take a bit of time before they got rolling, but eventually Cronus was nearly wiped out. Poseidon tortured Atlas with Privateers, while Arges and Brontes farmed XP with Frigates against Triremes and Galleys. During this war the Cyclopes kept teching fast, and once they upgraded Maces and Trebs to Cannons and Grenadiers, it was a walk-over. Cronus tried to counter, but naturally stood no chance (although he did temporarily regain one city).

Anyway, back to my plan. We were WAY behind in pop, so had to get to Communism and then Biology. Thankfully I ended up with the free GSpy, and could then launch a GA and change some civics. Not a ton of workshops, but I did build watermills on a large number of icy riversides. Hey, it's better than nothing, and every pop counts. The greatly reduced maintenance costs was wonderful, and the increased hammers too, plus the extra from Free Religion. I also went Free Speech, since we had some 30-odd cities with almost as many towns (39 towns at the end of the game). Had to go to Physics before Biology because I was worried about losing it otherwise. Arges-Brontes were teching very fast indeed. It helped that I got some GS for bulbing purposes. Put three or four GS into some of SciMethod, Physics and Electricity, going there via Astro and (for now) ignoring Feudalism-Guilds-Gunpowder-Chemistry. Also settled a bunch more cities, including (eventually) a triple fish close to Arges. I assume these were pre-placed, because the single-tile island had 2 barb warriors guarding it. Good thing I happened to bring a HA on the galleon, because it would have been pretty annoying to get there after some 15 turns of travel and not be able to settle it, despite getting there before Arges.

Slowly but surely we gained pop percentage on the Arges team, despite them taking a handful or so cities in the ice. I was glad they never went for Biology, and we kept that to ourselves. Seemed like he went for military techs instead, like Steel, Railroads and he was a hair away from Infantry too. While trying to get GSes for bulbing purposes, I was very lucky indeed, and got a 16% Great Engineer. Otherwise the UN would have been postponed a great many turns I fear, though an alternative was to trade up to Democracy, go US, save money, and buy the thing. Kept checking the diplo thing with Hera, being worried about not being able to gift away the city that seemed able to build the 300-ish hammers I needed in decent time. Hades was an alternative, but I didn't know that at the time, nor whether the mapmaker had been extra evil and had Arges with +200 diplo with him or something like that.

Have never gifted away the UN before, so I wasn't sure how this exploit worked. The vote came up immediately, but since we had most pop at this point, about 49% to Cyclopes 44%, we still became secretary general. Next turn I gifted it away. Totally slipped my mind that Hera would take a crapton of tiles from us. Had such a nice Moai city on that peninsula, which was still growing at size 20 (albeit more slowly now). Suddenly it lost all food, half its tiles and was starving down fast. Once the foodbin was empty, I hired every single citizen as an artist, but it was slow going to regain tiles. Maybe another 10 turns would have done it.

Other than that, the trick seemed to work well. The vote came up some turns later, and we had Arges on our side:

Spoiler :

Diplo win in 1725AD.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Contender. What a tough game! My game was very similar to @Pangaea except that the Cyclops went for Biology early and had significantly higher population than the Olympians at one point (55% vs 38%). Thus, to do the UN give away successfully, It would require the capture of not only our own continent but also the Titan land. Poseidon managed to build The Eiffel Tower but other than that the Cyclops built every single wonder they could get their hands on! I kept Cronus alive and gifted him the UN city. At that point the Olympians had 58 cities combined and 53% of the world's population. Four turns later (1802 AD) the diplomatic victory was won with a majority of 1410 against 4 .

Well done by @WastinTime getting very close to a diplomatic victory on Challenger! Contender was hard enough so I can only imagine how hard the Challenger must have been. I think you have a good chance of winning the next game playing Atlas. His capital is stronger and you will be closer to the big lake that can provide a lot of food with lighthouses. And of course, Atlas has map knowledge . Downsides are that the seafood island is further away and that barb defense will be more challenging without metal close by.

I will attempt the next game with Poseidon, but I expect it to be even harder than the Zeus game because of the poor starting location (until IW). Map knowledge will have to compensate for that.

 

[Pangaea]

Very nice game, particularly in view of having to take on the Atlas iceball land too. The vote in my game was close in comparison

I do wonder if anybody have been or will be able to take on the Cyclopes and win domination or something like that.

I will attempt the next game with Poseidon, but I expect it to be even harder than the Zeus game because of the poor starting location (until IW). Map knowledge will have to compensate for that.

Will play as Poseidon too, but I actually thought about it as being easier than Zeus. Poseidon is more protected from barbs, while Zeus is stuck out in the open with endless ice and tundra around, meaning the barb horde is likely to target him. Just hope he doesn't get wiped out, which may be a risk if he doesn't start with a super archer.

Will be incredibly strange to start a game, especially a competitive one, with map knowledge. I do wonder if there will be any changes to the map or other setups for BOTM 201.

 

[SittinDown]

Nice job guys - I'm not sure how you got your population over the 50% mark. I had to trade for Bio - I think I traded electricity maybe. I never took over Hera, but she was friendly and voting for me - so I figured that'd work just as well. I bet I wasn't aggressive enough with farming over old improvements, and probably could have settled my cities a little denser. When it comes to population count, is it more total raw population that matters, or is it more impactful to increase the size of bigger cities? I also had gifted several cities to Poseideon to even out maintenance costs, and I'm not sure he cared much about population.

My population hovered around the 38-40% mark, despite taking over both the Greek neighbors, and even a few Titan cities. Cyclops never attacked the Titans.

I didn't think of gifting away the UN city - makes sense in this situation, though I get your misgivings it from a gamesmanship perspective Pangaea. I had a Great Engineer. I may go back and try from my ~1600 save, and see if I can pull it off now that I know it's possible.

 

[Pangaea]

When it comes to population count, is it more total raw population that matters, or is it more impactful to increase the size of bigger cities?

It's total population that counts, so pop 1>2 or pop 19>20 matters equally much.

Can't speak for others, but I didn't farm over old improvements, or at least not much (some poorly developed cottages, while some tundra farms actually became watermills, but that was pre-Bio). I did aggressively farm over empty tiles, though, once it was possible to grow cities more, and think I also did farm over some of the earlier workshops. However, I did replace (almost) all mines with windmills, and that helps too. Also filled in the land with cities where it made sense. For example, due to how I settled the early cities, there were some unworkable green river tiles, and I put a city so that those could be farmed. City only ended up size 7 or thereabouts, but everything helps. Some cities up in the ice as well, where there was food, but some barb galleys greatly prolonged hooking up some of the food.

Poseidon only had 7 cities in my game, but those were all fairly big, with some size 19-20. AIs build everything under the sun, but at least it helps to grow the cities they do have big.

Cronus actually had a fist up when they found us, but it took a good while before they attacked, and of course that couldn't happen until they had Astronomy, which I traded them shortly before they won Lib. Still had tech view on them at that point, which was certainly helpful. Then you blink, and they're putting out 1200 espionage a turn. Totally nuts. I should have given up putting EPs on them much sooner.

Unlike what happened to some human players in the Lib race, I know that Cronus picked a tech in my game. They went for Economics, and I saw the free GM be born. Strange they never went out of Mercantilism despite getting Economics that early. They only left Merc in the last turns of the game, so about 400 years later. By then they had had Astro+Economics for at least 300 years I reckon.

And yeah, I wasn't very keen on that UN gifting trick when I heard about it, but looking over things in this game, I just couldn't see another way to win. And even if I somehow had been able to get to 62% alone (very unrealistic), it would probably have been impossible to win diplo with that, as it would be us and Cronus voting for each other, and for all I know that counts as 1 member against 1 other member, and we need 2 members voting to win diplo.

Also reckon State Property was important, because it cuts maintenance costs way down, boosts hammers, food and indirectly research (plus more research from the Free religion switch). That meant our economy was in much better shape, and it was faster to get all the way to Mass Media. Also kind of fortunate that Poseidon was in a GA around that time, so I asked him to go SP+Free religion, which he did without suffering anarchy. Would only have been one turn for him, but still nice timing.

One thing that potentially could have helped a lot here, is going early Archery. Barbs caused us a lot of problems early on, and is why I put city 3 and 4 on hills, although it was far from ideal placements.

 

[SittinDown]

Thanks for the thoughts.

Early on I wound up getting AH & wheel early and settling next to the horse for the 2nd city, and chariot-ed my way out of that. Warriors sure were not cutting it. But I lost a lot of tile improvements and a handful of warriors there. Posiden lost a lot as well, and I had to bail him out, and I wound up chopping some of his jungles and improving his gems. I think 3rd city was just south of the capital, and fourth was near the bronze / silk, to the south west of the capital, but I wound up controlling the barbs without axes / spears, and that city was weak on food.

I think from the 1 AD spoiler thread, most of us seemed to be in more or less the same situation - I'd be curious what our comparative saves looked like. My gut tells me I lost the most ground in the post- 1 AD area compared to your game, but usually the problems in Civ4 come early and compound, so my brain says I probably screwed it up earlier. Maybe much like the SGOTM-26, lower-quality city locations wound up compounding throughout the game, but didn't really hamper early expansion in this scenario, so it wasn't obvious at the 1 AD mark.

I'd like to see where you settled your cities and in what order.

Later on: Me + Posideon + Hera had more cities than the Cyclopses, but maybe 45% of the population, (Hera at ~ 8%).
I'm guessing I didn't settle densely enough and too many workshops. I was running State Property, and traded for BIO when I could. I was counting on sushi and I failed to get a great merchant. I had Medicine first, but because I didn't get a GM, I never switched out of State Property.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Will play as Poseidon too, but I actually thought about it as being easier than Zeus. Poseidon is more protected from barbs, while Zeus is stuck out in the open with endless ice and tundra around, meaning the barb horde is likely to target him. Just hope he doesn't get wiped out, which may be a risk if he doesn't start with a super archer.

Will be incredibly strange to start a game, especially a competitive one, with map knowledge. I do wonder if there will be any changes to the map or other setups for BOTM 201.

Barbs will be easier to handle with Poseidon, but early development will be really slow with only a couple of workable tiles until IW. Like you I also worry that Zeus will be a weak team mate because he will be overrun by barbs. On the other hand, the map knowledge is a big advantage.

 

[Pangaea]

Barbs will be easier to handle with Poseidon, but early development will be really slow with only a couple of workable tiles until IW. Like you I also worry that Zeus will be a weak team mate because he will be overrun by barbs. On the other hand, the map knowledge is a big advantage.

Yes, that's a concern, and we'll have to go IW much earlier. Also have map knowledge now, though, so we know there is a horse there, which will help to deal with the barbs, and maybe set us up for an early HA war or three. As Zeus, I never got to improve 'my' horse early, because barbs wreaked total havoc in my lands and busted all improvements and roads. Had no idea raging barbs would be that brutal. Never used them before.

 

[undead]

Contender. Lost to space. After the conquest of the starting continent, the remaining opponents where probably too advanced for me to expand further.

 

[MirrorGuard]

Contender
Last minute submission. Space victory AD1914.

I think the way to win space is is to beeline The Internet. You get all techs any 2 civs have, so I think that means if one team gets a tech, you get it too. Not sure tho on that technicality.

FYI, it should be "any 2 teams" I think. I got nothing from the Internet.

I haven't fought catapult wars for a long time. I think I have wasted 25T+ while conquering the mainland. Even so, I only narrowly missed liberalism, but got free spy scientist and engineer from communism physics and fusion. The Chinese gods are not so good at research.

 

[LinkDinkin]

I was another last-minute submitter. Played as Zeus. Kudos to the mapmaker for a really interesting game. Definitely a memorable one. Thanks!

This...

FYI, it should be "any 2 teams" I think. I got nothing from the Internet.

...happened to me too and I almost quit

Never played teams before and and I was completely foolish as to how teching/building/sharing worked.

The whole game I felt like I was narrowly missing things. I almost bailed again right at the end when my teammate started to slow build the last space part and there was nothing I could do to stop him to build it faster myself. Miraculously there were a couple of forest near him, in his territory, that I chopped to speed it up for him.

Somehow I squeaked out a late space victory (AD1928). Cyclops actually launched 1 turn before us. I thought the game was over, even while I shell-shocked clicked the next turn button 10 times to get a defeat screen to submit. It turns out 'Clops was hasty and only built 1 Engine so our ship arrived first. The only good luck in the whole game.

Spoiler 1 engine :

 

[WastinTime]

excellent space victories. Yes, cyclops did 1 engine in my game too. So, 12 turns vs 10t. Beating them by 1 turn must feel great!

 

[WastinTime]

FYI, it should be "any 2 teams" I think.

I was worried about this. Thx for letting us all know The Internet is not a good idea.

 

[damnrunner]

Thx guys. Another plan I had to avoid Cyclops 2nd war was to get a defensive pact with Zeus. Not sure that woulda deterred them, but I couldn't get the Pact. He didn't like me enough at +20. I suppose it was because he was only about +5-7 Pleased with Atlas. I thought those #'s would average out to Friendly. He was voting for me after all.

Amazing write up! Think you could have gotten a vote to ban nukes? Would have made a Cyclops war more survivable.

I also took a stab at a Titan game. Actually was surprisingly playable, except for the AI hating you. haha. Yeah - playable, not winable.

I was able to get the Great Lighthouse which empowered a good amount of commerce--especially after Astro. Also was able to get the Colossus which helped tech to astro. This took a few cheater restarts to make it work (its not like I was playing to actually win). The approach that worked was settling on the copper for instant access and then having well timed population slaving. Later I let barbarians kill the copper city and rebuilt in a better location.

Like WastinTime dog-piling into a war was a good way to get open borders and a huge trade boost. Of course didn't realize this as early as I could have....but didnt miss out on too many turns.

I had a similar vision of trying to kill Poseidon to get a happy Zeus, but was thinking I could win a space race this way.

I had initially hoped to take out the Northern Greeks or Egyptians as they were super weak. But their weakness also meant they got pretty gobbled up by Olympians + Cyclops before I had Astro. On the positive side, wondering if this made me less of a target for Cyclops as they already had one set of cities on a second continent.

So like WastinTime I went after Achilles (these were the greeks in the south if I recall) to get a beach head for going after Poseidon.. But looks like they were stronger in my game than his. While their southern cities (including capitol) were poorly defended, they had a pretty big stack of knights in a city up the north western coast. I was able to capture a city, and then sued for peace (traded tech I think) before their army arrived. I then teched and upgraded to grenadiers/cannons and in a follow up war was able to get them back on the defensive. However, I took way too long time, and just as I was about to capture core cities...Cyclops joined my war. While this was good because it allowed me to get OB with them again, it was bad because they turned the cities I hoped to capture into a nuked wasteland. I gave up after that.

Anyhow, think I might go back and see if I can take out Achilles earlier. Or at least get enough of a beach head to take out Poseidon (who I was fairly close to tech wise and had terribly defended cities).

But even is possible, don't see a way to avoid a spaceship loss.

 

[damnrunner]

Something I was mulling about this game - might it be possible to cause enough global warming to melt the ice and invade Hades?

 

[Pangaea]

Something I was mulling about this game - might it be possible to cause enough global warming to melt the ice and invade Hades?

Humanity is on the case.