BOTM 28 Final Spoiler

[bio_hazard]

Win, Spaceship, 1882AD.


So I was left with alphabet, and no religion until very late stages.

Booga out

This was me as well. I found it humorous that I had discovered every religious tech and civic, and was running free religion before I had any religion in any of my cities.

 

[kcd_swede]

Persepolis (size 28) built Apollo, Space Elevator and both Engines, before we dropped out of Bureaucracy. Persagadae did great thanks to Temple of Solomon, Sushi, Mining Inc, Wall Street and 6 merchants.

Space elevator? Surely that did not speed up your victory date. Were you simply gobbling up late wonders to pad the score, or am I dissing the Space Elevator unfairly?

 

[Ribannah]

The Space Elevator speeds up the building of spaceship parts. It saved us several turns.

 

[Silu]

If the bottleneck of building the spaceship is production (like here with a ginormous empire) instead of research (like it usually is with normal-size empires) taking the detour to Robotics to build it makes perfect sense

 

[kcd_swede]

If the bottleneck of building the spaceship is production (like here with a ginormous empire) instead of research (like it usually is with normal-size empires) taking the detour to Robotics to build it makes perfect sense

I guess I should ask how many turns could he research Robotics in. From the listed cities he shows about 2000bpt, and assuming those are the best I'd guess another 2000bpt total? So about 3 -4 turns?

Also, I look at an excerpt from his build list:


1505ad Three Gorges Dam
1540ad Eiffel Tower
1545ad Rock N Roll
1550ad Cristo Redentor
1555ad Kremlin

And have a real hard time getting my brain around the idea that the game was in fact production-limited. Note, complete spaceship implies 2 engines, a luxury that can only save (AFAIK) any on finish date if you have excess production capacity. At least the SpEl was built 200 years before finish (40 turns?), so 30 turns before launch, and it probably gave a boost to more than just a few of the individual SS parts' production time. However, I would suggest that building the SS in paralell builds (rather than in succession one after the other) the most you save on any one part is about 1-2 turns, so the total saved is about 1-2 turns. Thus the detour to Robotics is hard to defend as a good pay-off, though I'll grant if a more exact calculation was done it might have broken even or perhaps slightly better than that... but I have a hard time believing it from what I've read. I suppose if your good prod cities can switch to building research 1-2 turns earlier you could make up the lost few turns from Robotics, but it sounds like a less efficient way to get beakers than using multipliers.

Anyhow, it was a fantastic finish date none-the-less, and I only started the discussion because I want to learn how a good spacer is thinking so I can some day even come close to beating 1750AD. Nice game Rib!

 

[Ribannah]

Spaceship production went as follows:

1570ad Apollo Program (Persepolis, maximizing overflow)
- Space Elevator started in Persepolis, spent 1 Engineer
1580ad Space Elevator (Persepolis);
- SS Thrusters started in Persepolis and 4 medium-productive cities;
- SS Docking Bay started
- SS Stasis Chamber started
1590ad SS Cockpit started
1595ad SS Thruster #1 (Persepolis, large overflow)
- SS Engine started in Persepolis
1600ad SS Casings started
1605ad SS Thruster #2 (Iskathr)
- SS Life Support started; Golden Age ends
1610ad SS Thruster #3 (Borazjan)
1615ad SS Engine #1 (Persepolis), SS Thruster #4,5 (Susa, Sardis), SS Cockpit (Ergili)
- SS Engine #2 started in Persepolis
1620ad SS Docking Bay (Pasargadae), SS Statis Chamber (Gordium)
1625ad SS Casing #1 (Zohak), SS Life Support (Rey); could launch for 12 turns
1630ad SS Casing #2,3,4 (Bactra, Ghulaman, Dakyanus)
1635ad SS Engine #2 (Persepolis), SS Casing #5 (Jinjan); LAUNCH (10)

 

[Mitchum]

This was my first game at deity (if you can call this game deity level) and my very first game in BtS (I was a Vanilla-only civer until about 2 weeks ago). I wasn’t expecting to win, but I wanted to learn all of the added features BtS has to offer.

I was a bit worried when I saw World Wonders go very early: Stonehenge in 2560 BC, Great Wall in 2160 BC, Oracle in 1960 BC, Great Lighthouse in 1240 BC, and Pyramids in 1040 BC (it seems that in some of the other games, several of you built these wonders after these dates). In any event, I was really worried about the fast pace (tech and wonder building) on the other continent, so I beelined Civil Service followed by Liberalism (which I used to take Nationalism). I didn’t want to lose out on the free tech. I then researched Optics. When I got to the other continent, I was surprised to see how backwards they were. At this point, I knew that this would be an easy win, I just had to decide which one to go for… I decided on Space since

I had a scare in 1555 AD when I was declared on by De Gaulle and his three vassals (Gilgamesh, Shaka and Catherine). Vassals are a new concept for me, but it’s not every day that you get declared on by 4 civs on the same turn in Vanilla. In any event, he took one of my smaller coastal cities via amphibious assault and landed a stack of about 6 units (muskets and cannons) next to another city. At this point, I only had one unit (warrior, archer or long bow) in each city. Luckily, I had 2 great people ready just for this occasion (I had already triggered my first GA with an early GS). I triggered a GA, adopted Theocracy, State Property, Emancipation (I had been holding out on this, but unhappiness was getting to me), Nationhood and Universal Suffrage. I immediately drafted three infantry, started units in all of my coastal cities and cannons in all of my inner cities, and set my research to 0%. On the next turn, I rush bought units where I felt I needed them the most. Unfortunately, I didn’t have railroads built connecting all of my cities yet, so I wasn’t able to get the units where I needed them right away. I was able to hold off the stack, but I didn’t get my one city back because an AP vote ended the war before I could. The AP is new to me, so I have a few questions about this later.

When I had the spaceship nearly built (no one else even had the tech required to build Apollo yet), I decided to take over a few cities on the other continent just for fun. I managed to only take two before the spaceship reached the stars in 1858 AD with a score of 120,987.

A few things happened in this game, which were new to me. I’d like some insight on them from some of you BtS vetrans.

High taxes on island cities

I noticed that the cities on the NW and SW islands had higher than expected maintenance costs. I looked at the details and noticed a charge for “Colonial expenses”. What is this?

Automatic peace treaty

I had 7 transports loaded with artillery and tanks, ready to attack Monty, who only had mace men, longbows and a few grenadiers. For some reason, I was not able to declare war. I noticed that I had a peace treaty with him, which I didn’t sign. The treaty had 8 more turns on it, so I decided to quickly sail my transports back to upgrade my Tanks to Modern Armor, which had just become available. When I got back in position, the treaty was just expiring. But, before I could attack, the peace treaty was renewed for another 10 turns. WTH?

I checked the F4 screen and saw that there was no treaty with De Gaulle. He was much bigger, but still no match for my Modern Armor. So, I spent 4 turns moving my transports to the other side of the island. Before I got there, I decided to bribe De Gaulle to declare war on Monty so that he would move some of his units out of his cities, which he and all of his vassals did. The turn I was about to declare on De Gaulle, a peace treaty was signed for 10 turns… What???

In any event, I sent my transports back to Monty. When I got back there, I was able to declare, but De Gaulle and his gang had taken one city, but not the second one. However, this city was surrounded, so I had to act fact. This leads to my next question, but first this one:

Why were these peace treaties in place even though I didn’t sign them? Did it have to do with the AP vote some 100 turns ago, which ended my first war when De Gaulle declared on me?

Artillery cannot kill in BtS?

My stack had to attack and take Monty’s last city before the De Gaulle crew did. I did the math and saw that I had enough units. However, when I tried to use a few artillery to mop up the last 3 wounded units, I was not able to do so. Did they remove the ability for these units to kill enemy units in BtS?


This was a good game to get my feet wet with BtS, however I still have a lot to learn: AP, espionage, vassals, new leaders, units, wonders, techs, buildings, etc.

 

[adrianj]

High taxes on island cities

I think that as of Warlords, with the introduction of Vassal states, if you have more than 2 cities on an island that doesn't have your capital you will get charged colonial expenses. The idea being that now the player has the option to grant independence to these colonies if you wished. Granting independence spawns another AI player who is gifted those cities and has all of your techs at that point - and they are your permanent vassal.
On this diety level game, I think many players chose to do this, because a Diety AI who is your permanent vassal can actually contribute quite well. I didn't do it personally because I still felt that controlling the cities myself would be more efficient - plus I was using the State Property civic, which removes the colonial maintenance expenses.

Automatic peace treaty
Why were these peace treaties in place even though I didn’t sign them? Did it have to do with the AP vote some 100 turns ago, which ended my first war when De Gaulle declared on me?

The AP is probably the most likely cause for a peace treaty you haven't actually negotiated. If you have just 1 city with the AP religion you are a voting member, whether you like it or not. Being a member means you must abide by all the resolutions which are passed, unless you block them by defying the resolution when the vote comes up. The resolution to End a War with XXX forces all memebers to sign peace with XXX - but it should only last 10 turns or so (I think it is 10 turns regardless of game speed). How it happened 100 turns later might be different...

Other possibilities - you made a demand which Monty gave in to? Probably unlikely, you would certainly know what you are doing in this case.
Monty was someone's vassal who you had some enforced peace deal with? If Monty were someone's vassal, he is basically asking the other AI to protect him - or having the 'protection' forced upon him if he capitulated through a losing war. Perhaps for example Shaka was Monty's Master, you made a demand off Shaka (forcing peace with Shaka) therefore you can't declare on Monty.

Artillery cannot kill in BtS?

Yep! In the Vanilla and Warlords days it was pretty much sufficient to have an enormous stack of siege units with a handful of stack defenders, and romp through enemy cities. In BtS things need to be a little more balanced, since siege units cannot kill.

What's more - if you do have a big stack of siege out in the open, be careful of enemy mounted units. If they attack your stack and either win or withdraw, they could be doing flanking damage to your siege units. Personally, I like this added feature of BtS. Requires a little more thought in the old Stack-o-Doom.

 

[Mitchum]

Thanks for the answers, adrianj. You are always quick to help out.

I have a few additional points / comments from a BtS newbie:

... now the player has the option to grant independence to these colonies if you wished.

How does one make that happen? I never saw an option for vassalizing my own cities while palying the game.

The resolution to End a War with XXX forces all memebers to sign peace with XXX - but it should only last 10 turns or so (I think it is 10 turns regardless of game speed). How it happened 100 turns later might be different...

The AP vote was definitely many turns before I intended to declare, so the AP vote couldn't have been the culprit. Although, you are correct in that I was a member of the club as their religion spread to one of my cities.

Other possibilities - you made a demand which Monty gave in to? Probably unlikely, you would certainly know what you are doing in this case.

I did ask for or demand all of Monty's and later De Gaulle's gold the turn before I intended to invade them. I typically do this so that the AI doesn't have enough gold to upgrade any older units. Are you saying that if you make a demand of an AI or ask for gold as a friendly gesture, that an automatic 10-turn peace treaty is signed? This isn't the case in Vanilla...

Monty was someone's vassal who you had some enforced peace deal with?

This is not the case in this game. Monty was all alone...

 

[adrianj]

How does one make that happen? I never saw an option for vassalizing my own cities while palying the game.

From the city advisor csreen (F1) some cities have a Red Fist next to them. Click the fist to grant cities independence - the option is only available if you have 3 or more cities in a colony I think.

I did ask for or demand all of Monty's and later De Gaulle's gold the turn before I intended to invade them. I typically do this so that the AI doesn't have enough gold to upgrade any older units. Are you saying that if you make a demand of an AI or ask for gold as a friendly gesture, that an automatic 10-turn peace treaty is signed? This isn't the case in Vanilla...

Ok, bad habit You'll have to stop doing that, because it does indeed enforce peace between you. Which makes sense really - you're trying to blackmail them into paying you something, they would at least hope for something in return.
It works both ways. I often use this to my advantage in games where I have the AI at pleased, but I'm still concerned they could declare war on me. I regularly beg for a small amount of gold (30g usually works) and then they can't declare on me for 10 turns. Repeat the process after 30 turns or so (normal speed), when they're 'memory' of the beg is likely to have gone. It also means other AI won't ask you to join a war against them - so you can save on those annoying -ve diplomacy points.
Note: begging for gold at Pleased or better does not give -ve diplo if they refuse. At Cautious or below it is considered a demand, and not only are they more likely to refuse, but are unhappy with your arrogance.

 

[Mitchum]

Thanks again, adrianj. Also, thanks to the entire CFC community for making the Civilization titles have a much longer life than the standard computer game, which gets boring after winning it the first time!

Now can somone explain vassals, great generals, espionage, corporations, unique building, new leaders/civilizations and new world wonders in 5 words or less...

I still have a lot to learn about BtS, and I'm looking forward to it! I guess I have to start reading the "Strategy and Tips" section again...

 

[kcd_swede]

Spaceship production went as follows:

1570ad Apollo Program (Persepolis, maximizing overflow)
- Space Elevator started in Persepolis, spent 1 Engineer
1580ad Space Elevator (Persepolis);
- SS Thrusters started in Persepolis and 4 medium-productive cities;
- SS Docking Bay started
- SS Stasis Chamber started
1590ad SS Cockpit started
1595ad SS Thruster #1 (Persepolis, large overflow)
- SS Engine started in Persepolis
1600ad SS Casings started
1605ad SS Thruster #2 (Iskathr)
- SS Life Support started; Golden Age ends
1610ad SS Thruster #3 (Borazjan)
1615ad SS Engine #1 (Persepolis), SS Thruster #4,5 (Susa, Sardis), SS Cockpit (Ergili)
- SS Engine #2 started in Persepolis
1620ad SS Docking Bay (Pasargadae), SS Statis Chamber (Gordium)
1625ad SS Casing #1 (Zohak), SS Life Support (Rey); could launch for 12 turns
1630ad SS Casing #2,3,4 (Bactra, Ghulaman, Dakyanus)
1635ad SS Engine #2 (Persepolis), SS Casing #5 (Jinjan); LAUNCH (10)

Very interesting. So your finish date was determined by when you got the 5th casing (for 100% mission success). Had you had 5 casings in 1625AD, you would have the same finish time launching with 1 engine as you had with 2 engines. Casings started in 1600AD... I assume that is when you finished Composites(7500 beakers). But I am guessing that if you skipped Robotics (8000 beakers) altogether, you would have had Composites at least 2-3 turns earlier (maybe 4?), started the casings 2-4 turns earlier, maybe skipped the second engine letting Peropolis build at least one of the casings, and finished at least 1-2 turns earlier.

The math could be different depending on what your base hammer rate and hammer multipliers already were present in your casing cities.

suppose 50 base hammers, forge + factory with power(3G) + laboratory + Aluminum

= 50*(1+0.25+0.5+0.5+0.5) = 137.5 hpt on casing (400 hammers) builds without space elevator or 3 turns with 11 hammer overflow.

with the space elevator, this hypothetical city could build a casing as such:
= 50*(1+0.25+0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5) = 162.5 hpt on casing build (400 hammers) or exactly 3 turns with 86 hammer overflow.

3 turns without space elvator or 3 turns with space elevator in a 50 base hammer city. No profit in build speed from space elevator, just hammer overflow.

No matter your base hammer rate, the REAL percentage increase in production is additional multiplier divided by multiplication factor without the bonus; or in case of space elvator in a well developed city 0.5/2.75 or 18% (not 50%).

How low does your base hammer rate in a city have to be before the space elevator saves you 1 single turn on a casing build? (400/b*2.75 - 400/b*3.25) = 1

(1/2.75 - 1/3.25) = b/400

b= 22.4

So you only save 1 turn on a casing build if your base hammer rate in that city is less than 23 hpt, or you lack some of the multipliers that are much cheaper than the Space Elevator. (Not a good place to build, considering Mining Inc was presumably spread there). And note that 1 turn saved on casing build still leaves you at a loss for having diverted to Robotics before all the SS enabling techs were completed. Unless, if as Silu says a large empire is pulling down 8000 beaker techs like Robotics in a single turn, then I wonder why one would wait so long to start the casings, which ended up limiting the launch date.

(Now, since I'm usually so bad with the numbers in civ, I eagerly await someone to clarify why my thinking is so screwed up).

Edit to add: for your 5th casing.... you started all casings simultaneously, you built #5 in 7 turns, so you did it with about 57 hpt (not counting overflow). Your base hammer rate was therefore (assuming all multipliers) 18 hpt. Without space elevator this city would have 49.5 hpt rounded down to 49, and would build a casing in 9 turns (though very close to 8, so if you started with overflow could have done it in 8) you saved 2 turns (one turn if had just 4 hammers overflow). If you took 2 turns to research Robotics, congratulations, you might have broke even (which is very hard to do with Space Elevator). But maybe not, if you consider what Persiopolis might have been doing instead of building Space Elev.

 

[Ribannah]

Skipping Computers and Robotics would have given us all space techs just 2 turns earlier, even if we had skipped Laser and bulbed for Fusion with the Great Engineer that was now spent on the Space Elevator. Note that Fiber Optics comes slower without Computers and that we had extra research in the game because a number of cities could build wealth or research during more turns thanks to the Space Elevator, and/or ran merchants and scientists while building.

This means that a 1-engine, 1-casing spaceship could probably have been launched the same turn that we could have done so in the game. It is the Statis Chamber that would have become most critical then, but switching its build to Pasargadae and starting the Docking Bay immediately elsewhere would have solved that - just. A complete spaceship would have been finished later than in the game.

But maybe not, if you consider what Persiopolis might have been doing instead of building Space Elev.

Nothing more than in the game, as the Space Elevator was finished in only 2 turns.

 

[kcd_swede]

Skipping Computers and Robotics would have given us all space techs just 2 turns earlier, even if we had skipped Laser and bulbed for Fusion with the Great Engineer that was now spent on the Space Elevator. .

OK, you had access to the details and your superb result makes me think you probably knew what you were doing and made the right call.

This means that a 1-engine, 1-casing spaceship could probably have been launched the same turn that we could have done so in the game.

I think even I could have done better than a 1-engine 1-casing ship by that point, if we start from your Apollo. If you start your engine(s), casings and stasis chamber 2 turns earlier, the worst that happens by not building the Space Elevator is that these take 2 turns longer to build. All the other parts makes no difference if they take longer since they are finished at same time or earlier anyhow. You break even.

It is the Statis Chamber that would have become most critical then, but switching its build to Pasargadae and starting the Docking Bay immediately elsewhere would have solved that - just. A complete spaceship would have been finished later than in the game.

Space Elevator does have biggest impact on engines and stasis chamber since these are the 1000 hammer parts and do not get aluminum bonus. With good micromanagement Space Elev could save 2 turns on these builds if done in best production cities. Certainly no more than 2.

Note that Fiber Optics comes slower without Computers and that we had extra research in the game because a number of cities could build wealth or research during more turns thanks to the Space Elevator, and/or ran merchants and scientists while building

I do not understand. You just said in effect that Robotics + Computers = 2 turns research. Unless it was very tight micro, I don't see how the pre-req bonus matter one bit. Sure, if you need both techs it makes sense to do them in the minimum beaker order, but if you only need the later tech, you don't speed up the enablement of parts building by researching the pre-reqs, you slow it down. In an 8000 bpt civilization, it shouldn't matter. You won't even notice the 10% or whatever. Why care how fast you get the non-essential (non-ss) techs?

(Persiopolis would accomplish) Nothing more than in the game, as the Space Elevator was finished in only 2 turns

b*2.75 (with SE) for 1000 beakers in 5 turns -> 73 bpt base. So without the SE 73*2.25 = 164 bpt does it in 6.1 turns ( that makes 7, assuming you can't get overflow). Two turns slower. Check. Right now its even. But... It enabled a second engine before casing #5 which cut your travel time by 2 turns, so perhaps that wins 2 turns. I don't know.

I would have gotten one of those turns back by putting casing #5 in Pers and skipping engine #2, launching a turn earlier but arriving a turn later. Note, 73*2.75 (with Al bonus) makes 200bpt and that 2 turns is equal to a casing. Note also, that engine #2 build was four turns which could have been two more casings. So at the same time you got engine # 2... but I would have looked for a way to get 3 casings outside of Persiopolis in the same amount of time (recall, I get 2 casings and 1 engine from Pers two turns before you get SE and 2 engines - I started 2 turns earlier, took 2 turns more to build the first engine, and the second casing was 2 turns less than your engine#2), launch 2 turns earlier than you did with 100% mission success, and we arrive at the same time. Jinjan could have been building culture at that time, for all it would matter.

But it was your game, you are a better player, and I'm sure you got the overflows and micro to work out in the most seemless and efficient way possible. I only point out that in general the space elevator will slow down a space race finish rather than speed it up. Very special circumstances needed for even a small number of turns improvement with SE, which you may have acheived. I don't know.

If you happen to have a save from the turn Apollo Program is finished we could both play it both ways and see what the effect of SE really was.

Its kind of funny me discussing these minor details that matter a turn or two at the endgame, when I would surely lose about 50 turns compared to you in the early game.

Nice game, thanks for the discussion!

 

[Ribannah]

You're welcome! This is what these comparison games are for.

But yes, the opening game often makes a huge difference. I always feel that a first spoiler cut-off point of 500ad is too late to stimulate a detailed discussion of the opening play.

launch 2 turns earlier than you did with 100% mission success, and we arrive at the same time

Your calculations are a bit off, but this was perhaps possible. I wanted a full spaceship though.

 

[kcd_swede]

Your calculations are a bit off, but this was perhaps possible. I wanted a full spaceship though.

My calculations are always off, usually by more than just a bit. The observant reader will notice I did not even consider the Bur bonus, mostly because I'm nevr quite sure if it is handled the same way as multipliers, or if it increase base hammers. (Since I don't even understand such basics, its no wonder I waste so much time in wrong civics and such and lose many turns - there almost seems like a "turn loss multiplier by era" somewhere I'm missing, too )

 

[Silu]

The observant reader will notice I did not even consider the Bur bonus, mostly because I'm nevr quite sure if it is handled the same way as multipliers, or if it increase base hammers.

It's additive instead of multiplicative, same as every other (human) production bonus, so it's not very strong in the lategame. Not like the Bureau bonus in relation to bonuses for example. Basically every bonus in the game is additive except espionage bonuses and that Bureau if you count is as such

 

[shyuhe]

The sandbox deity game was a bit disappointing Not much to note in my game, other than that I completed it in under 3 hours . I took code of laws from the oracle, although that was probably a mistake in hindsight since I should have just gone ahead and started expanding instead. I took astronomy with liberalism and hit domination when I capitulated the Khmer in the late 1500's.

 

[donsig]

This was a fun game. I started it thinking I'd be done soon since I am not good at the higher levels. I was pleasantly surprised to have lots of room to work with and no neighbors close by. My building was soon threatening to get out of hand and I had to restrain myself n the city building area. The research path seemed clear soon enough. I needed libraries for scientists while courthouses and religion wouldn't hurt either. So I went for code of laws. Missed founding Confucionism by some turns but then set my sights on philosophy and got Taoism.

I like time victories and set my sights on that once I realized I had a continent to myself. I worried for some time that I'd be way behind in tech when the others found me so I concentrated on teching. I did not go looking for anyone. It turns out my tech fears were unfounded. I was sailing along and then looked at the first spoiler. hen writing mine up I went back into my save to figure out how many cities I had in 500 AD and I noticed the Aztecs had many cities in the top five. I took a look at the culture graph and became quite concerned. Concerned enough to build a convoy of transports filled with infantry and tanks to capture Monty's top cities. I think the Aztecs only had rifles or maybe some machine guns. I was just worried that I had discovered this culture threat too late. The war was quick even though I ended up fighting a few other civs who were probably Monty's vassals. Since they also only had rifles there was no military threat.

Once the Aztec culture threat was neutralized I only had to worry about triggering domination. (The AI were no where near spaceship building technology, though I did build the elevator just in case.) I ended up liberating a Zulu city when I got above 61% of the land area. I had long since farmed all my towns and most other tiles. The last few turns were worrisome since I was at 61.72% land area out of the 62% domination limit. I had crept up that high despite no cultural borders expansions in the last ten turns or so. I decided not to give away another city and I'm glad to say I did not trigger domination.

I can't recall what happened with the AP but a religious victory never seemed a threat.

 

[Mutineer]

It's additive instead of multiplicative, same as every other (human) production bonus, so it's not very strong in the lategame. Not like the Bureau bonus in relation to bonuses for example. Basically every bonus in the game is additive except espionage bonuses and that Bureau if you count is as such

In Original civ 4 it was multiplier, like commerce, but in one of fixes they make it additive.
Late in game there are so many production % bonuses, additional 50% become non issue.