BOTM 77 Final Spoiler

[Deckhand]

BOTM 77 Final Spoiler

,

So how did your game after 1AD go? Tell everyone and discuss in this thread, subject to...

Reading Requirements

Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 77, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless

• You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

• Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games.

sorry about not changing everything to 77 when posting .

 

[nocho]

BOTM 75 Final Spoiler

,

So how did your game after 1AD go? Tell everyone and discuss in this thread, subject to...

Reading Requirements

Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 77, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless

• You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

• Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games.

I have fond memories of BOTM75 too, but you can really call the current one 77 now (thread title too).

Anyway, raced through this one in barely two and a half hours for my first ever religious win, in 820AD. Annexed America in the process and after infecting everybody else with Christian thought, switched to Justinian's bud and gave him theology for shared civics. On the turn of vote conveniently he asked for paper, which bumped him to friendly.

 

[Folket]

, I have not played 77 and was kinda planing to =(. I hope you rename the thread before more people make the same mistake.

 

[zbgayumn]

This was a game where I got a little too clever for my own good. From the outset I was thinking Space, but the (potential) cleverness kicked in when I realized that it would end up being a post-1900 victory. That's pretty mediocre, and I already had a nice high score in the WOTM this session, so I decided to play it all the way out for the Time victory.

So yeah, Time Victory for 11,965 points.

I don't believe an award exists for Time victories, so I'd like to petition that one be created. Obviously, there can't be a "fastest", but there could still be a "highest scoring".

If my petition goes unheeded, well, at least I'm practically guaranteed to win the Cow.

One final note: I found out that XOTM games are ineligible for the Hall of Fame, but for the record this is the second-highest scoring Time victory on Noble, Standard, Normal for all versions. It's the highest scoring game for BtS.

 

[zbgayumn]

Now for a run down of the game itself.

As I said in the first spoiler, I started a war with America around 200 BC. I captured all but one city (Washington included) by 300 AD, and I gave him peace in exchange for Poly and Currency. For the next couple hundred years I consolidated and built up the economy.

800 - 1180 AD

Zara and Charlie decide to pick on Gilgamesh. I take advantage of the chaos to finish off the last American city. Darius piles on against Gilgamesh, and I join the dogpile for the diplo bonus. However, Gilg caps to Darius after only a few more turns.

1220 -1340 AD

I finally get a Wonder by completing Hanging Gardens. I research Philo and bulb Education in 1250. I'm first to Lib in 1330 and I get Astronomy with it. I also pick up the circumnavigation bonus during this period.

1350 - 1500 AD

I settled on the small island next to Australia first, and then got two cities planted on the larger landmass. The next settler went across the ocean to South America.

1515 - 1750 AD

I found two cities in S. America, capture a 3rd, and turn them over to my new Colony governor Victoria. I continue to settle and capture barb cities until Vicky is occupying almost all of that continent. Persia got there in time to found one city on the NE coast, and I decided to keep the Panama Canal for myself. I captured four barb cities in North America and gave those to Vicky as well. It probably hurt her, more than helped her, considering the distance maintenance. Charlie and others were settling in N. America by then, so the north was more of a mishmash. Justinian got the Caribbean islands, Zara got some of the east coast, Pericles was too backward to get anything.

1750 - 1864 AD

This is about when I decide to go for the Time victory. I'm up to Rocketry, Mass Media, etc. in tech, but that's still a lots of turns from Space. So, once I make the decision to go all the way, I start looking for a way to slow down everyone's tech pace. At first, no one seems willing, but at the end of this period I bribe Zara to attack Darius, who is clearly my primary challenger. I also found Sid's Sushi.

1865 - 1900 AD

After several turns, it becomes clear that Darius was much better prepared for war than Zara. However, with the Persian stack off in the west I jump into the fray and take Numidian from him. His power rating is still higher than mine, and the stack turns back toward me, so I ask for a regular old cease fire and he agrees. The attempt to buy time for Zara didn't really work, though, and he soon loses another city. I'm building military capacity like mad, and eventually I reach a ratio of 1.1 with Persia. Good enough.

1916 - 1954 AD

I re-enter the war with Darius and quickly take Sardis, which effectively cuts off his overseas cities. Then, I tiptoe around the edges waiting for the stack attack. It never really came all at once, so I became a little more aggressive. I took 3 more cities and then Persepolis. That causes Gilgamesh (who hasn't risked any units on offense) to break away, and suddenly Darius is willing to capitulate. So, I vassal him and decide to destroy Sumeria outright.

1955 - 1988 AD

I was content to spread Sushi (and CreateCon) for a while, but Justinian soon completed Apollo and became a threat. I also only had about 30% of the land, so I wanted more to run up the score. An added bonus was that Constantinople had a ridiculous number of Wonders, which would also boost my score. In 1972, I attack his Old World holdings in south Africa with the full suite of Modern units. His navy turned out to be stronger than I thought, but that didn't do him much good. He cap'd to me in 1988 with only his Caribbean cities left.

1988 - 2050 AD

I plant cities everywhere I can within my borders and spread Sushi to all of them (I was getting +16F by the end). I'm burning through Future Tech's left and right. For a while, I thought the biggest threat would be my own vassals going to space. Finally, I realized that when they get to Fusion, I can tell them to research Future Tech instead. Thus, they can never build an engine. That leaves Zara and Charlie to worry about (Pericles is still struggling to finish the tech tree). I had already ramped up espionage to 30% on the slider. I just continually sabotaged spaceship parts every couple of turns.

I actually had to drop out of Free Speech in order to avoid a culture win. Even after that I culture flipped a couple of cities. I had some room under the Dom limit, so it was all good. Finally, I decided no one had a chance at launching a spaceship, so I went to 90% research to rack up as many technology points as possible. I believe the last one was Future Tech 37.

You really have to stay on top of a lot of things to win by Time. It must be far harder on the higher levels where the AI can reach space much earlier. Also, it takes a lot of frickin' time. 50 hours in this case.

 

[whb]

Diplomacy of the gun.

 

[Sleepless]

Wasn't sure how to go about this game. Settled in place and built 3 more cities before taking out Lincoln with Ballista's. Oracled Construction.

Then decided to head for an AP win. Should have gone for Theology sooner reading Nocho's spoiler..

Built the AP in Washington. Spread Christianity around though lost a few turns as I wasn't aware where the greeks were. Lost my scout early which didn't help.

With my votes and Charlie/Gilgamesh voting for me won in the first election 920AD.

Thanks for the game..

 

[Jastrow]

Somehow this start did not inspire me, and I was in the mood for a mindless AI but-wipping, so my game involves no finess, and no real planning... Build ballistas, cat, horse archers, and the assorted swors/axe, and attack anything that moves... Took until about 1150 AD before I ran out of things to kill, and the conquest victory screen showed up.

 

[Jastrow]

@Cooper,

To answer your question from the 1st spoiler tread (Since I cannot imagine this happened before 1AD)...

In BTS, there is a game mechanic called colonies. Once you have founded at least 3 (maybe its 2) cities on a land mass which is not your starting continent, you can liberate them as a colony. This creates a new civ which owns those cities and automatically becomes you vassel. The AI can do this just like you can.

 

[kcd_swede]

Just wanted to say I started this game. One of the first in a long time. Submitted incomplete because as a realist I know I won't get back to it. I thought the set-up was great. But I am so rusty I got frustrated making so many nooby mistakes.

I remember the time when I'd finish a game no matter how hopelesss... had more civ fun back in those days, but sadly I have to prioritize other things today.

 

[ShiVvV]

1565 AD conquest with contender save

My initial suspicion that I'm not nearly the player that many of you are is confirmed as this is a rather late conquest victory for Noble difficulty. I am enjoying the gotm's however and am learning as I go. I had no idea could settle 2 plots distant on separate landmass and picking up tips like that are one of the good things about playing these for me.

As far as my game went--won Lib and teched additional technologies while waiting for AI's to near completing education. I still took MilTrad as free tech though. Lincoln was eliminated early in game (around 300 BC) and Persia shortly thereafter. Then waited for cuirassiers before more war. Realizing after seeing Jastrow's post that waiting for cuir's might have been a mistake.

Anyway, getting better (I think) and looking forward to next one.

 

[nealw]

1585 ad conquest contender save

after I eliminated Lincoln, I was going to go and attack sumeria but he offered to be myvassal, I accepted I went and took 2 of charlemagne's cities and he capitulated, I then was planning to mad tech till lib and get cuis but some random event happened and I went ahead and got +1 relations for those who were Jewish. I also rush built the AP for the Jewish religion (woohoo, whip for more hammers) but this caused me to war persia and I lost my stack of macemen vs his longbowmen didn't have enough cats and didn't have engr yet... well anyways I just got guilds and pumped out knights like a boss and then took 3 of persias cities.... including the cap, after I got the cap darius offered to cap so I did.... I won the lib war and proceeded to get lotsa cuirs to attack zara after getting rifling but as I was amassing troops on his border he offered to vassalize himself

I then take 2 of pericle's cities and he caps.. I then proceed to take all of justinians cities destroying all but 1... I probably should have went for the quick cap for a better score

fun game probably would have been faster w/ the elephants

 

[duckstab]

Religious victory, 1904 AD.

Almost everybody adopted Confucianism except Justinian, who was Buddhist. He was fairly formidable for a while, having taken out Pericles around 100AD. After a while though he started to lag in tech and Zara became the real superpower.

Darius built the AP. Zara pretty much held the residence the whole time. My original plan was to try to be the first to Optics and Astronomy and settle the new world before anyone else had a chance, then just crank out missionaries and grow until I had enough to force a vote. I tried to keep my nose clean and avoid ticking anybody off, though Justinian never got to more than cautious because of our religious difference.

Nevertheless, my production and commerce were both weak, and it looked like it was going to be a tough win. Charlie, Zara, and Justy all beat me to the new world, though they left the southernmost part of S America alone as well as a number of barb cities.

My two big breaks came in the late Renaissance. First, Zara, with whom I'd had a defensive pact for a long time, became friendly enough that I was able to make a permanent alliance with him. Glad that option was toggled on this game! Then Giggles went and DoWed Darius. Being rather behind the latter in tech he got spanked pretty badly and came to me begging to vassal. I said no at first but turned around and bribed Darius to make peace with him. I then went back and told Giggles I'd changed my mind. He gladly accepted.

Looking at the AP scoreboard I realized that I had enough votes between the 3 of us and Charlie, who was also at friendly with me, for the win. There were just two problems. First, when I concluded my PA with Zara it apparently cost him the residency, leaving it vacant. I had to play something like 40 more turns at least before the next election. Second, Justinian had been running Theocracy most of the game and hadn't a single Confucian city. I at least had OB with him at the time so I was able to pull the old missionary gifting trick.

From then it was mostly waiting. I continued to expand just to increase the vote margin in case Charlie defected, but since he spent two stretches vassaled to Khmerethiopia I wasn't too worried. Ended up with 14 cities: 6 in and around SE Asia, 3 in and around Australia, 4 in S America, and 1 in N America.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Went for Conquest. I played in one session, just throwing the latest tech of Military Units at AIs until they succumbed.

The gates of Aachen destroyed my army twice, but on the third go, with incredibly overwhelming odds in my favour, I lost nary a battle.

Justinian also offered some resistance, but the power of numbers took him down.

Conquest Gold helped to fuel my research. I don't think that there was even a single Cottage that got built on the map.

From what I recall, zero World Wonders were built, as well.

I probably should have taken the Challenger saved game, but I didn't like the idea of there being zero Ivory Resources in our hemisphere... having at least one elsewhere would have been enough to make me take the Challenger saved game... had we been given a challenge ("go out and capture Ivory instead of having it gifted to you") instead of completely blocking a type of unit from being built, I would have gone for the Challenger saved game... and, if the fear is that we wouldn't want the AIs to have War Elephants of their own, realise that our Unique Unit's ability isn't nearly all that useful without the enemies having War Elephants of their own. That said, I still really enjoyed the game and just regard that point as constructive feedback on how to better entice a player to take on the Challenger saved game.

 

[Mitchum]

I was going to go for Space but realized that I wouldn't be able to finish on time so I decided to go for anEspionage victory. I haven't been following BOTM lately but I don't recall seeing anyone win this award so I figured I go for it.

Interestingly, this VC is a lot harder to nail down than the standard Cultural victory, at least for me. There were a few things that happened that messed me up:

1. I got Darius down to 2 cities so that he would take my future Legendary cities off my hands while I performed a bit of sneakery. The cities had my religion in them (and I had the Holy City) so that I would get the -40% discount on espionage missions. On the IBT while waiting for the Spread Culture mission to become available, Darius switched to my religion so the bonus dropped from -40% to -25%. This messed up all of my calculations which led me to be quite a few espionage points short and delayed my victory by several turns.
   
   
2. 85% spy success missions as listed by Sid seems very optimistic. In all three cities, I had quite a few more than 15% of my spies fail. Sometimes they would die right away and other times they would perform the mission (i.e. spread culture) and then die immediately afterwards instead of transporting to my capital. I had never seen that. In any event, the "85% success rate" was probably closer to 80%. Not a big deal as long as you prepare for it and build more spies than Sid expects.
   
   
3. The other espionage discounts seemed to change over time too such that I was short espionage points again. It's odd that a 1% or 2% difference in the EP Differential or Culture discount can lead to a difference of over 2,000 espionage points over the course of the 51 spy missions required (assumes ~4K seed culture) to make a city reach 50K

If I were to try for this VC again, I would pay more attention to these espionage modifiers and how they change over time. I would also pick an AI that had more cities (gift using the 9 plot distance rule instead of the less than 3 cities rule) so that he wouldn't switch religions so easily. Finally, I'd spend more time trying to get the -20% OB discount which I didn't get. The critical path in my game was espionage points, not building 100+ spies, so anything I could have done to reduce the required number of EPs would have shaved time off my victory date.

In the end, I got a 1210 AD Cultural victory but in the right hands I think sub 1000 AD is doable with this map.

Maybe we should try for an Espionage gauntlet in an upcoming BOTM to see how far we can push this. Kaitzilla got an impressive 300 BC victory but that was with a 4 gems HoF start using HC (Checker rush) on Marathon at Deity (more tech trading). That date is untouchable with this save but the strategy used there can be applied to any game.

 

[jesusin]

Well done with the Espionage Victory, Mitchum.
I'm curious, did you enjoy the experience?

In the end, I got a 1210 AD Cultural victory but in the right hands I think sub 1000 AD is doable with this map.

Yeah, Espionage can beat traditional culture everytime.

 

[Mitchum]

Well done with the Espionage Victory, Mitchum.

Thanks. I learned a lot after trying for an Espionage Victory the first time so my second attempt was much better than my first one several BOTMs ago. I don't know if you remember but your traditional Culture beat my Espionage victory by 10+ turns that game...

I'm curious, did you enjoy the experience?

Actually, I did. I enjoy planning, optimizing and thinking about Civ as much as I do playing it. My first Civ games were all either Conquest or Space. I largely ignored the diplomacy aspect of my games other than tech/resource trading. I had always heard that Culture Victories were about hitting End Turn 50+ times near the end of the game waiting for the three Legendary Cities to trip 50K . Your guide on Culture Victories helped me enjoy that VC as well. I learned that there is a lot more to it than what I had previously read. Optimizing REX, research, base culture, spreading religions, culture multipliers, GP generation, diplomacy, etc. make Culture a lot more challenging... at least a lot more challenging if you want to post a competitive victory date. Break out a spreadsheet and try to squeeze out several turns from your expected finish date. Then as the game winds down, try to eek out one extra GArt or shave one extra turn by doing some fancy MM. Personally, I enjoy this aspect of the game while countless others find it tedious and would be just as happy spending 5 less hours and finishing 3 turns later.

Although an Espionage Victory is similar in that you have to get 3 LCs, it obviously plays a lot differently than a traditional Culture Victory. But that doesn't mean that it's any less fun/satisfying. Again, it's an exercise in optimization. How do you balance science and espionage points? How much do you REX peacefully and how much warring will you do? How far into the tech tree do you need to research? When do you switch civics and which ones should you run? Who are you going to give your future LCs to, how are you going to ensure that they take them, and how will you get them back while keeping the diplomacy aspect of the game under control? How are you going to maximize all of the espionage modifiers/discounts? How many spies will you build, how many do you think you'll lose, and will you use each spy once or several times? How will you get enough seed culture in each future LC and what is the optimum amount (just a little too much can be almost as bad as too little)? Do you want 3 100% GArts for the seed culture and how will you get them? Do you want a GSpy for an infiltration mission or will the EP slider give you enough?

Again, to optimize all of these variables, I found myself spending almost as much time with a spreadsheet as I did with the game itself. Estimate, refine, improve, re-estimate, optimize, squeeze, improve, etc. It's very similar to a Culture Victory but you're pulling different levers and tweaking different dials to optimize the finish date.

I understand that this Espionage Victory is in direct conflict with your beloved "traditional" Culture Victory because Sid gives both victories the same name. But don't knock it until you're tried it at least one time. You may just find that it gives you a chance to learn something new about this game that many of us have been playing for too many years to count. Based on reading many of your posts and understanding you desire to squeeze out the maximum from your games, I think the Espionage Victory may be enjoyable for you.

Yeah, Espionage can beat traditional culture everytime.

That is why I agree with many that this victory condition deserves a different category/name in xOTM/HoF competitions. There was a long thread about that several months ago so I don't think we need to re-hash that here.

Out of curiosity, how many fastest Espionage awards have been handed out? I can't remember any... Also, how many times has Espionage beat out traditional Culture for the fastest Culture award when the game designer chose not to separate the two? Again, I can't remember any but I don't really follow BOTM while SGOTMs are being played.

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

Really fun game, despite nearly having a rage quit and almost forgetting to submit! Much better showing than being walked over by Peter last time.

Went for all out war, crashing the eco pretty early. Got a couple of cheeky worker steals on washington early on trying to farm his corn. But I didn't like his cap position and so razed it which in hindsight I think definitely put me back a bit. I built up a slow stack up as I decided to tech for a fued pop with the oracle thinking it would help make a conquest easier, which really slowed down my getting HAs, although I had to settle again to get the horses that were in americas original BFC. Took out holy rome, persia, vassalised eithiopia, killed greece in quick succession.

I think I got a bit carried away as I didn't wait to heal my troops and suicided a huge hurt HA stack on the byzantines. Whilst I killed 3 of their cities including the cap I think I was relying too much on them to capitulate, which everyone seemed to resist a lot considering the difficulty. If it wasn't for the same turn going after sumeria and killing their cap with the exact amount of HA needed. Managed to save it using a road I had built down to greece for the earlier invasion to conquest at 600 vassalising both sumeria and byzantium in the last few turns.

If I had stopped to heal and microed better (probably just skipped the oracle actually) and gone straight for HA this could easily have been done well into the BCs. Definitely fun enough to try again!

 

[c00per]

Somehow this start did not inspire me, and I was in the mood for a mindless AI but-wipping, so my game involves no finess, and no real planning... Build ballistas, cat, horse archers, and the assorted swors/axe, and attack anything that moves... Took until about 1150 AD before I ran out of things to kill, and the conquest victory screen showed up.

You make it sound so easy, like it was a walk in the park and you didn't put any effort at all. Does Noble give absolutely no challenge to veteran players like you?

@Cooper,

To answer your question from the 1st spoiler tread (Since I cannot imagine this happened before 1AD)...

In BTS, there is a game mechanic called colonies. Once you have founded at least 3 (maybe its 2) cities on a land mass which is not your starting continent, you can liberate them as a colony. This creates a new civ which owns those cities and automatically becomes you vassel. The AI can do this just like you can.

Thanks for the explanation. Since I haven't encountered this feature before, at first I thought that this was an evil trick planned by Deckhand

 

[Jastrow]

You make it sound so easy, like it was a walk in the park and you didn't put any effort at all. Does Noble give absolutely no challenge to veteran players like you?

It depends what you mean by challenge... Noble can offer plenty of sun challenges such as trying to launch the space ship by a specific date, or these competitions, where the goal is not just to win, but to do so the fastest, or with the highest score. However, if you mean does the Nobel AI provide any challenge to an experienced player winning the game somehow, then the answer is simply no...

On Noble, and even Prince, planning and high level strategy is not needed to garantee a win. If you just do the basics right (which will come automatically to an experienced player), then that will be enough to over power Prince and lower AI in all aspects of the game. By basics, I mean:

-Good city placement.
-Decent worker management to get the food and then the power tiles ready.
-Some basic chopping/whipping.
-Unit stacking for war.
-Proper tech trading.
-Picking an efficient tech path.

Even at Monarch, the above is sometimes enought, depending on how good your start and the map is, but often Monarch maps are tough enough that some higher level of plan is needed to make sure you dont fall too far behind.... At Emperor, the AI start to need to be really taken seriously.

The big reason for this is speed to Feudalism... In war, the AI is bassically defenceless until he gets to Feudalism (Longbows). Once he has those, his cities are hard to take, but until then, cats plus just about anything will take cities efficiently. So in the caveman-rush-the-AI approach, the question is how much damage can you do before Feudalism comes on line. On Noble/Prince, the answer is quite simply more than enough.

In this game for example... I settles the capital, and built a city near the elephants, and a 3rd city on the pinincula... Capital gor granary, library, barracks and Moari. Elephant city got granary and barracks.... Then I started building cats, elephants, and the odd swords... Early captured cities for a granary, and then build units. Later captures just built units... Nothing else.

Units were selescted pretty much at random between cats, elephants, horse archers, and swords, with the odd axe and spear trowns in. New units moved towards the front (Northwards and Westwards), and attacked anything that moved... Even agianst such a primitive rush, the AI offered no resistance what so ever (Even at 1000 AD, Noble AI cannot defend themselves against such a basic stack.)