Brainstorming : Fundamental Rules (out of game conduct)
- Thread starter DaveShack
- Start date
donsig
Low level intermediary
RoboPig said:
I'm not sure exactly what happened since I wasn't there. What I think happened is that two factions developed and there was a tussle over who would actually play the turns. I got the impression that things got very polarized and the 'losing' faction may have left the Civ II demogame. It's pretty much ancient history and as I said I was not a part of the Civ II demogame so I'm relating hearsay. But every time we brought up political parties in the Civ III demogames we were told emphatically that they were bad and evil things that could ruin the demogame like they almost did in the Civ II demogame. Delving into the archives might give you a better answer.
Actually I hadn't thought of the a turn or two a day - that is a great idea. If we do it, I indeed would do terms based on turns (25 turns? That would almost turn out to be 1 month). Or would you only do a week long? 10 turns? Have someone different play every turn? We would have to work out the kinks, but it sounds great.
Eklektikos
Eponymous
If we were to start the election process on the 1st of each month there would be no need for a separate schedule for February at all.Ginger_Ale said:
Octavian X
is not a pipe.
As for political parties, I got bored and started to delve into the history of the demogame:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=11038 > Original thread by TheDuckofFlanders proposing the democracy game
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=125729&postcount=73 > first mention of political parties, by TheDuckofFlanders
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=125779&postcount=78 > Cornmaster rejects idea of political parties because he fears that a lack of active demogamers will prevent the formation of viable parties.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=125842&postcount=83 > parties as default institutions end, but allowances for evolution:
Anyway, except for an exceptionally loud disagreement on the general principles of government by a poster named "Pellaken," and Cornmaster's suggestion that the game couldn't support a party system - in fact, this bit from one of the first posts should sound familiar to older DG players here:
You'll have to show me evidence of this supposed Conflict that led to the end of political parties. So far as I can tell, the ban emerged from Cornmaster's suggestion. TheDuckofFlanders, Pellaken, and rmshapre founded parties, but they either never gained support or were ended because of (what I think was) a suggestion by the first President, DuckofFlanders.
Let's impleament parties, with the sunset clause ravensfire suggested. So far as I can tell, there's no reason not to.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=11038 > Original thread by TheDuckofFlanders proposing the democracy game
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=125729&postcount=73 > first mention of political parties, by TheDuckofFlanders
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=125779&postcount=78 > Cornmaster rejects idea of political parties because he fears that a lack of active demogamers will prevent the formation of viable parties.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=125842&postcount=83 > parties as default institutions end, but allowances for evolution:
Cornmaster said:
Anyway, except for an exceptionally loud disagreement on the general principles of government by a poster named "Pellaken," and Cornmaster's suggestion that the game couldn't support a party system - in fact, this bit from one of the first posts should sound familiar to older DG players here:
Cornmaster said:
You'll have to show me evidence of this supposed Conflict that led to the end of political parties. So far as I can tell, the ban emerged from Cornmaster's suggestion. TheDuckofFlanders, Pellaken, and rmshapre founded parties, but they either never gained support or were ended because of (what I think was) a suggestion by the first President, DuckofFlanders.
Let's impleament parties, with the sunset clause ravensfire suggested. So far as I can tell, there's no reason not to.
Eklektikos
Eponymous
I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find that the relevant threads might not exist anymore. Evidence of big conflicts is rarely left lying around on these fora. Might be worth asking DoM or perhaps K-D about it if you're really interested - I imagine that they're the posters most likely to know exactly what happened.
Great, we really are going to discuss a few things instead of moooving along like cattle to the slaughter. 
Before we jump right into a turn per day idea, let's consider it a bit. That would be a bit like a PBEM game, which are notorious for taking years to complete. Look at donsig's or Donovan Zoi's signature.
Granted there are a lot of times in PBEMs where weeks pass with no activity, which shouldn't happen here.
How about a hybrid system where we expect activity almost every day, and we pop off the more traditional 10 turns or as much as we're ready for once the big decisions are ready for a given position? Actually we could keep the amount of turns to be played very flexible, as long as we average 15-25 turns per week.
On political parties, we've had defacto parties in C3DG6 (new system vs traditional) and C3DG7 (5BC vs not). The only thing these parties have lacked is a visible front office. Today parties conduct business using private message deals promising support for each other, and some very interesting discussions develop when someone changes sides. Lets go with a tentative yes to parties, with a sunset clause, and appeal to the mods to keep an eye on it and squash any problems which develop (i.e. parties can be banned abruptly if necessary).
Gotta get ready for work, maybe more thoughts later.
Before we jump right into a turn per day idea, let's consider it a bit. That would be a bit like a PBEM game, which are notorious for taking years to complete. Look at donsig's or Donovan Zoi's signature.
Granted there are a lot of times in PBEMs where weeks pass with no activity, which shouldn't happen here.How about a hybrid system where we expect activity almost every day, and we pop off the more traditional 10 turns or as much as we're ready for once the big decisions are ready for a given position? Actually we could keep the amount of turns to be played very flexible, as long as we average 15-25 turns per week.
On political parties, we've had defacto parties in C3DG6 (new system vs traditional) and C3DG7 (5BC vs not). The only thing these parties have lacked is a visible front office. Today parties conduct business using private message deals promising support for each other, and some very interesting discussions develop when someone changes sides. Lets go with a tentative yes to parties, with a sunset clause, and appeal to the mods to keep an eye on it and squash any problems which develop (i.e. parties can be banned abruptly if necessary).
Gotta get ready for work, maybe more thoughts later.
Strider
In Retrospect
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 8,984
DaveShack said:Great, we really are going to discuss a few things instead of moooving along like cattle to the slaughter.
Before we jump right into a turn per day idea, let's consider it a bit. That would be a bit like a PBEM game, which are notorious for taking years to complete. Look at donsig's or Donovan Zoi's signature.
How about a hybrid system where we expect activity almost every day, and we pop off the more traditional 10 turns or as much as we're ready for once the big decisions are ready for a given position? Actually we could keep the amount of turns to be played very flexible, as long as we average 15-25 turns per week.
Or we can just use the "several turns per day" format, and install a sunset clause on it. We can run it for the first term and see how it goes, then after that term, the amendment automatically goes back up for ratification. We can approve it with another sunset clause, completely approve it, edit it alittle, or refuse to ratify it.
Armed_Maniac
Soldati
A citizen's representitive (or wathever) could be responsible to watch over disruptive individual, where he uses a poll to decide on the fate of the person. Otherwise the other way around, where the people decide if he gets a sentence, and then the 'judge' decides what to do with him.
XionNova
Chieftain
I think it will take alot more commitment to do 1-2 turns per day. Meaning only the truely devoted will be able to keep up. I have quite a bit of spare time on my hands, but I know alot of people don't. It would be much easier for those people to make it a point to be on here for the turnchat once a week, as opposed to once a day.
It just seems more efficient to do it the 'traditional' way.
It just seems more efficient to do it the 'traditional' way.
Armed_Maniac
Soldati
I think the constitution should include STRICT rules about modifying the XML and/or pythons of the game... it seems like there's this cheat thing that's pretty simple to do that allows you to see the whole map and modify things?
It will be rather difficult to see if an XML or python file has been edited. (It's possible to edit the python file for the domestic advisor to say, view the info for enemy cities). The very least we can do is set the admin password to prevent viewing "cheatable" features. (It will ask for a password to even use the cheat features). BTW, there is an action log, and combat log. So, that can be used to check to see if there's any cheating. (I'm not sure if it gives the combat chances in the retail version -- i.e. 4.2vs2.1. Hopefully it does.)
Armed_Maniac
Soldati
i can immagine how hard it would be... that's why i recommand extreme sanctions to discourage anyone from doing so. Hell, i can't even understand it yet, even less spot any modifications...
There was really nothing to keep someone from loading a past DG save into one of the cheat enabled programs and editing something or gathering information. We would detect any such actions by obvious inconsistencies between what we saw before and what we saw after, or if someone starts to get prophetic visions of what will happen.
XionNova
Chieftain
couldn't we use some kind of encryption software? And only tell the DP for the day what the password is? That would at least limit the number of people that have an opportunity to mess around with it.
Octavian X
is not a pipe.
In my humble opinion, I doubt it will be a big deal. Chieftess' solution, which works with the game's programming and is probably least harmful, is the best. Our rules in this area of gameplay are remarkably clear, and we've never had trouble with people loading and reloading the save before.
Alphawolf
Basileus, Founding Father
More of Alphawolf's Collection of Random Thoughts
Sorry for the delay (anthropology test)
7) My idea of a possible Government
Keep in mind that I don't know if this is feasible, I am new to this "Demo Game"
I have based this idea on the American system of three branches of government: the Executive, the Legislative, and the Judiciary.
A) The Legislative Branch
I. The most important branch consists of all citizens of the Nation except those holding elected offices that term.
II. Only the Legislative may decide two things: Declare War/Make Peace/Alliance and a change in Taxes (the science/treasury meter) higher that 10% every 5 turns.
III. Also may bring an impeachment/no confidence vote against the big three (Triumvirate) at anytime.
IV. An impeachment will be held like this: any member of the Legislative branch may start a poll to ask for the impeachment of the Triumvirate (either all three leave office or none of them). This poll will be open 48 hours only, for the motion to carry at least 2/3 (67%) must have voted in favor and at least half of the number of citizens in the citizen registry must have voted. If the motion is carried another poll will be set up the same way and if in it impeachment wins the Triumvirate are removed from office.
B) The Executive Branch
I. This branch consists of the Triumvirate and any and all elected and appointed advisors.
Ia. The Triumvirate will consist of the President, Secretary of State, and the Minister of War.
Ib. The advisors will be any office that we the citizens deem necessary to have that is not included as part of the Triumvirate, the Judiciary, or a Gubernatorial office.
II. The Powers and Duties or the Triumvirate.
IIa. They shall work together as a group. If they have a problem they will work it out amongst themselves we do will not hear about.
IIb. The Powers and Duties of the President
1. The President is Grand Old Man and thus he has great influence but not that much power.
2. The President nominates the Secretary of State, Minister of War, and the Chief Justice of the Court
3. During the Turnchat the President may order the ending of the game for a poll vote, i.e.: war, peace, change in Tax, or any thing else he deems appropriate.
4. The President may call for impeachment of any non-Triumvirate executive official or government.
4a. The impeachment of Governors is the same as the impeachment of the Triumvirate.
4b. The impeachment of a non-Triumvirate executive official requires one poll with a simple majority and the voting of at least 1/3
(33%) of the number of citizens in the citizen registry.
5. The President may ask the Legislature for a Declaration of WAR at anytime.
6. The units the President controls
6a. The President shall control all non military except for workers under the control of a Governor.
6b. The President shall control all Naval units.
7. The President shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
7a. The nominations for President may not be self nominations.
8. The President shall have the entire power of the Triumvirate for the first turn.
IIc. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of State
1. The Secretary of State shall have complete control of the Foreign policy of our nation with the exception of War/Peace/Alliance, trade/sell/buy of techs, and trade of cities.
1a. The Secretary of State needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to take the following to a legislative vote: War/Peace/Alliance or the giving away of one of our Nation's cities.
1b. The Secretary of State needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to accept a city or to trade/sell techs.
1c. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the President to buy techs or in any deal in which we loose more than 250 gold.
2. The nominations and election of The Secretary of State shall be held as follows:
2a. All nominations for Secretary of State will be self nominations.
2b. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Secretary of State.
2c. The Secretary of State shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IId. The Powers and Duties of the Minister of War
1. The Minister of War shall have complete control of all military land units with the exception of garrisons under the control of Governors.
1a. The Minister of War may move any military land units anywhere in our territory, unclaimed territory, enemy territory, or allied territory.
A. Outside of our territory or enemy territory the Minister of War need the President's permission to move beyond a certain boundary of our borders.
1b. The Minister of War needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to attack an enemy city
1c. The Minister of War my not attack a city or unit of a neutral or allied Civilization.
2. The Minister of War shall have complete control of all air units.
3. The Minister of War with unanimous permission of the Triumvirate may ask the legislature for a Declaration of WAR.
4. The nominations and election of the Minister of War shall be held as follows:
4a. All nominations for Minister of War will be self nominations.
4b. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Minister of War.
4c. The Minister of War shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
The Judiciary Branch
III. The Judiciary Branch will the known as The Court, it will consist of three Judges, a Chief Justice and two Associate Justices.
IIIa. The Powers and Duties of the Chief Justice
1. Whatever we decide them to be.
2. The nominations and election of the Chief Justice shall be held as follows:
2a. All nominations for Chief Justice will be self nominations.
2b. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Chief Justice.
2c. The Chief Justice shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IIIb. The Powers and Duties of the Associate Justices
1. Whatever we decide them to be.
2. The nominations and elections for the Associate Justices shall be held as follows:
2a. Nominations for Associate Justices can be self nominations or some can nominate you.
2b. The Associate Justices shall be the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IIIc. No Judge may be impeached.
IIId. For the first term there shall only be one judge and that shall be an Associate Justice.
Governors
IV. Governors are the elected officials that run cities
IVa. The Powers and Duties of the Governors.
1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius.
2. What ever other power we decide to give them
IVb. Governors shall be elected in whatever way we choose.
IVc. Governors may not be impeached.
If you want me to clarify just ask.
-the Wolf
Alphawolf said:
Sorry for the delay (anthropology test)
7) My idea of a possible Government
Keep in mind that I don't know if this is feasible, I am new to this "Demo Game"
I have based this idea on the American system of three branches of government: the Executive, the Legislative, and the Judiciary.
A) The Legislative Branch
I. The most important branch consists of all citizens of the Nation except those holding elected offices that term.
II. Only the Legislative may decide two things: Declare War/Make Peace/Alliance and a change in Taxes (the science/treasury meter) higher that 10% every 5 turns.
III. Also may bring an impeachment/no confidence vote against the big three (Triumvirate) at anytime.
IV. An impeachment will be held like this: any member of the Legislative branch may start a poll to ask for the impeachment of the Triumvirate (either all three leave office or none of them). This poll will be open 48 hours only, for the motion to carry at least 2/3 (67%) must have voted in favor and at least half of the number of citizens in the citizen registry must have voted. If the motion is carried another poll will be set up the same way and if in it impeachment wins the Triumvirate are removed from office.
B) The Executive Branch
I. This branch consists of the Triumvirate and any and all elected and appointed advisors.
Ia. The Triumvirate will consist of the President, Secretary of State, and the Minister of War.
Ib. The advisors will be any office that we the citizens deem necessary to have that is not included as part of the Triumvirate, the Judiciary, or a Gubernatorial office.
II. The Powers and Duties or the Triumvirate.
IIa. They shall work together as a group. If they have a problem they will work it out amongst themselves we do will not hear about.
IIb. The Powers and Duties of the President
1. The President is Grand Old Man and thus he has great influence but not that much power.
2. The President nominates the Secretary of State, Minister of War, and the Chief Justice of the Court
3. During the Turnchat the President may order the ending of the game for a poll vote, i.e.: war, peace, change in Tax, or any thing else he deems appropriate.
4. The President may call for impeachment of any non-Triumvirate executive official or government.
4a. The impeachment of Governors is the same as the impeachment of the Triumvirate.
4b. The impeachment of a non-Triumvirate executive official requires one poll with a simple majority and the voting of at least 1/3
(33%) of the number of citizens in the citizen registry.
5. The President may ask the Legislature for a Declaration of WAR at anytime.
6. The units the President controls
6a. The President shall control all non military except for workers under the control of a Governor.
6b. The President shall control all Naval units.
7. The President shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
7a. The nominations for President may not be self nominations.
8. The President shall have the entire power of the Triumvirate for the first turn.
IIc. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of State
1. The Secretary of State shall have complete control of the Foreign policy of our nation with the exception of War/Peace/Alliance, trade/sell/buy of techs, and trade of cities.
1a. The Secretary of State needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to take the following to a legislative vote: War/Peace/Alliance or the giving away of one of our Nation's cities.
1b. The Secretary of State needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to accept a city or to trade/sell techs.
1c. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the President to buy techs or in any deal in which we loose more than 250 gold.
2. The nominations and election of The Secretary of State shall be held as follows:
2a. All nominations for Secretary of State will be self nominations.
2b. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Secretary of State.
2c. The Secretary of State shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IId. The Powers and Duties of the Minister of War
1. The Minister of War shall have complete control of all military land units with the exception of garrisons under the control of Governors.
1a. The Minister of War may move any military land units anywhere in our territory, unclaimed territory, enemy territory, or allied territory.
A. Outside of our territory or enemy territory the Minister of War need the President's permission to move beyond a certain boundary of our borders.
1b. The Minister of War needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to attack an enemy city
1c. The Minister of War my not attack a city or unit of a neutral or allied Civilization.
2. The Minister of War shall have complete control of all air units.
3. The Minister of War with unanimous permission of the Triumvirate may ask the legislature for a Declaration of WAR.
4. The nominations and election of the Minister of War shall be held as follows:
4a. All nominations for Minister of War will be self nominations.
4b. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Minister of War.
4c. The Minister of War shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
The Judiciary Branch
III. The Judiciary Branch will the known as The Court, it will consist of three Judges, a Chief Justice and two Associate Justices.
IIIa. The Powers and Duties of the Chief Justice
1. Whatever we decide them to be.
2. The nominations and election of the Chief Justice shall be held as follows:
2a. All nominations for Chief Justice will be self nominations.
2b. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Chief Justice.
2c. The Chief Justice shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IIIb. The Powers and Duties of the Associate Justices
1. Whatever we decide them to be.
2. The nominations and elections for the Associate Justices shall be held as follows:
2a. Nominations for Associate Justices can be self nominations or some can nominate you.
2b. The Associate Justices shall be the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IIIc. No Judge may be impeached.
IIId. For the first term there shall only be one judge and that shall be an Associate Justice.
Governors
IV. Governors are the elected officials that run cities
IVa. The Powers and Duties of the Governors.
1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius.
2. What ever other power we decide to give them
IVb. Governors shall be elected in whatever way we choose.
IVc. Governors may not be impeached.
If you want me to clarify just ask.
-the Wolf
uubry
Deamon Deacon
Lovely! My only sugestion is to make the starting lines of the subarticles a different color to make it easier to read.
Knightlancer
Chieftain
Me thinks Awolf is a politician or a lawyer.
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