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[GS] Brave New World for Civ 6

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by acluewithout, Jan 20, 2020.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    We need Brave New World for Civ 6.

    BNW in Civ 5 was critical to making that game a success. It added late game mechanics like Ideology and World Congress, that move the early game about squabbling city states, to a late game about Global Hegemons, International Conflicts and Word Wars.

    Civ 6 needs the same thing. The late game is dull and lacks conflict, there are key mechanics from Civ 5 that the game is still missing, and there are existing mechanics from RnF and GS that still need more work.

    Brave New World for Civ 6 could be a Third Expansion, or could maybe just be covered by one or two smaller DLCs. I don't mind either way. But Civ 6 really needs the equivilent of Brave New World for the game to feel complete, and go from "excellent" to "best Civ / 4X ever".

    Here's what I think the game needs specifically.

    • Ideological Pressure. BNW introduced Ideological Pressure, which used Tourism to cause happiness / amenities in neighourboring Civs to be reduced if you had differing ideologies. Civ 6 needs an equilevelent to Idelogical Pressure, which ties together Tourism, Amenities and Loyalty, which in turn creates more tension around what Tier 3 and 4 Goverments you pick and generates more global conflicts. You could have Tier 4 Governments exert additional Ideological Pressure, which would help buff those Governments, and also maybe introduce some negatives to switching Government types so that forcing someone to switch from say Democracy to Communism because of Ideological Pressure becomes a tough choice.You could also obviously have World Congress Resolutions which focus Ideologies and buffs to Alliances for shared Ideologies. As part of introducing Idelogical Pressure, I think FXS also need to tweak Amenities and Maintenance Costs generally, to create a bit more empire management challenges in the late game, and then add some Ideology related Wonders like the Pentagon, Prora etc.
    • Late Game Governors. Governors are essentially the Civ 6 version of Civ 5's Social Policies (e.g. Victor=Honour, Magnus=Liberty, Liang=Tradition, Moshka=Piety, Reyna=Commerce, Amani=Patronage, and Pingala=Rationalism). That's cool, but what's missing is mid to late game Governors that sort of mirror Civ 5's Ideologies. It would be pretty easy to implement too - just have certain Governors unlock with the Tier 3 and 4 Government Civics. You could have new Governors unlock that focus on Colonial Cities (i.e. a Colonial Governor) and more "Idelogical" Governors that focus on Ideological Pressure, the World Congress, Spies and or that can be placed in other Civs (a bit like Ibrahim). One advantage to this is that it'd make Governors more dynamic, because they wouldn't all be available at the start, and not everyone would unlock the same Governors. It would also allow Governors to overlap a bit more, so instead of having e.g. just one "Science" Governor (Pingala) or one "Ambassador" Governer (Amani), you could get a second Govenor that overlaps a little with those, so you could potentially have more that one "Science City" or more than one Governor in various City States.

    • Expanded Gov Plaza, Gov Buildings and National Wonders. National Wonders that can only be built next to your Gov Plaza or Capital. Add the ability to building Town Halls and Courts in other Cities to improve loyalty and or resist ideological pressure and or reduce maintenance costs.

    • Vassals and Colonies. Option to hold Cities as Vassal Cities or as Colonies, rather than just holding them outright. You have less control over the City (eg, can’t building anything in the production queue) and they are more vulnerable to Spies, but you get other benefits like increased Diplo Favour, yields etc. based on how loyal the Vassal or Colony is. You can also place late game Governors in these Cities with various effects and there are specific policies for these types of Cities.
    • More economy and Trade Nodes. Overhaul of maintenance and global happiness, so that managing late game empires is harder. Perhaps also have a slider, a bit like adjusting disaster intensity, so people can increase or decrease how hard maintenance is. Also add “Trade Nodes”. These are created by founding a Trading Company in a City. You can only have one Trade Node per Continent. International Trade Routes automatically route through Trade Nodes and provide benefits to Civ that controls the Trade Node (and yes, if you don’t manage to found a node, you have the option of capturing a City with a Trade Node). Also, rework Banks and Stock Markets to make them more interesting than just more flat gold.
    • Future Tech. Future Tech feels very underwhelming - there's only one Future Tech unit which is the GDR; and the Future Techs themselves are underwhelming because they largely only boost the GDR (except for that one tech which "boosts" normal units by removing their CO2 cost). Future Tech needs to have more impact, by introducing more future units (and future buildings) and having Future Techs boost other units, buildings etc. FXS should also bring across the orbital layer from Beyond Earth.
    • Overhaul Religion. The current Religion system is pretty cool and works very well. But it could use another pass post the base game. Specifically, I think the beliefs need a balance pass like we had with Pantheons, Apostle Promotions need expansion, Religious Buildings need a significant buff, and Religious Beliefs should unlock more unique units (not just Monks). I think there’s also a good case for letting people continue to recruit Great Prophets, with GPs acting more like Great Generals for Religious Units and being the mechanism for Evangelising Religion and Starting Inquisitions rather than using Apostles.
    • Overhaul World Congress. I know Civ 6's World Congress has copped some flack, but I do think it works really well. But I also think it still needs another pass to really get it right. First, the existing resolutions need another balance pass - a particular issue is that some resolutions just have too many options for the B vote, and some just don't feel like they have much impact at all. Second, the World Congress needs more WC related Wonders, like the Apostolic Palace and the UN Building. These Wonders shouldn't just give you bonuses, but should instead unlock new available resolutions and or emergencies from the World Congress.
    • Ambassadors. Bring back being able to send Spies out as Ambassadors. That would then give Spies three options or "roles", ie Spy, Counter-Spy and Ambassador, and also give everyone a bit more to do with Spies. Ambassadors could have their own missions, focused on diplomatic visibility, buffing spies, enhancing alliances and improving trade routes. And speaking of Spies...

    • Overhaul Spies. Spies are another great mechanic that just need another balance pass. Specifically, I think the number of Spy Missions needs to be reduced (get rid of Recruit Partisans - it's just another reason not to build Neighourhoods - and combine Listening Post and Gain Sources), and some of the Promotions should be consolidated (e.g. combine Siphon Funds and Steal Great Works Promotion, and combine Disrupt Rocketry, Breach Dam and Pilage Industrial Zone Promotions). There should also be one or two Great People or Wonders that increase Spy Capacity, just so there's a bit more variation in how many Spies each Civ can have.
    • Industrial Zone and other Buildings. Give the IZ additional T1 Building Options (eg Stone Masons, Forge), buff Workshop (eg +1 Housing) and add a non- power related T3 Building (eg a Tech Hub that buffs production and science). Add in some missing buildings, like Courts and Townhalls (see above), Hospitals, Public Schools.

    • Barbarians and City States. Give City States Unique Units, that you could use if you levy the City State, and create additional Diplo Options for City States beyond just Declare War and Levy. Give Barbarians more unique units. Also create Barb Cities that work a bit like City States (now called Free Cities). Free Cities replace Military City States and are what other Cities turn into when they loyalty flip. Envoys provide additional production for military units, and Suzerain provides additional great people. If you Loyalty flip the city, you gain back half of the envoys you put into the City.
    • Units and Wonders. Add Composite Bowmen, Trebuchet, Medieval Melee (please not “Longswordsmen”, instead maybe “Man at Arms” or “Halberdman”), more Future Units (and make Future Tech more useful generally). Make Aircraft Carriers work like the GDR, ie can’t form Amardas etc or earn XP / promotions, but gain bonuses / upgrades via tech tree. Generally rebalance units (particularly anti-cav and Tanks v Mech Infantry). Add Statue of Zesus and Ideological Wonders like Prora and Pentagon. Also add Apolostolic Palace and UN Building that give you additional Diplo Favour for World Congress and unlock new resolutions and emergencies / scored competitons.
    Sorry, I know I’ve posted about some of this stuff before. But I thought I’d put it down in one place just one last time.

    I don’t know what FXS are going to do with Civ 6, and I guess we’re going to find out at some point. But the more I think about it, the more I think the game is still missing “something”, and I think that something is basically what Civ 5’s Brave New World introduced into that game and that game’s overall focus on improving diplomacy, conflict and the late game.

    Guess we’ll see what happens.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
    Birdism, Haig, nauberry and 1 other person like this.
  2. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    If we put these two together, perhaps they could have/add governors that unlock with government tiers. And some part (or all) of their promo tree can vary based on which one you picked. It can be the same dude even, just give him different hats- like the 3 guys on the BNW box art. So perhaps if we rearrange the existin gones a little, perhaps you have 5 to start with, who can be balanced around early game effectiveness; 1 each at tier 1 and 2 governments (as an example, liang could come at tier 1 and be tweaked to reflect that.) Then we add a new guy for tier 3 which helps your ideological pressure + some flavored benefits, and then perhaps a t4 governor that does, something. However, restrict the player to only being able to hire (say) 7 governors total, so you cannot pick everyone every game. And then obviously add a wonder that lets you have an extra governor pick. Some slight adjustments to the governor screen and you would be good to go.

    I think spies would be way better in general if the UI for them was through a screen where we could manage them all at once, rather than as quasi units on the map. Just something to further streamline the clicking it takes to get them assigned and help me coordinate a grand espionage strategy rather than my piecemeal methods I have now.

    If they had unique bonuses on retirement or use in some way, like other GPs, that would go a long way to spicing up the religious victory, which is currently pretty repetitive.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Yup. Agree with all that. Particularly the point about the Spy UI. Spies are Super confusing to use well in the game right now, particularly once you have a few moving about.

    Of everything I’ve suggested, I think the most critical are ideological pressure, unlocking mid and late game Governors (if only to get away from having the same governors being available every single game), and just fleshing out the Future Tech and Future Units a bit more.

    I’m reasonably hopeful FXS might go in that direction, even if they go with DLC instead of a full Third Expansion, and I really, really think they should. It’s the gap around those three things which is where I think 80% of that feeling that Civ 6 isn’t “complete” really comes from.

    As an aside, if FXS didn’t introduce mechanics for Governors to unlock mid and late game via Civics and or Governments, I think that would create a ripe area for modders.

    Cross fingers.
     
  4. mdl5000

    mdl5000 Warlord

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    I agree with pretty much all of this. Civ 6 just isn't where Civ 5 was at this point.

    - ideological pressure was important in Civ 5 because it was an overall component of a cultural victory. so was religion. now we have a "religious victory", sure, but that is simply addressed by having you generating an exorbitant amount of faith to purchase the dozens and dozens of missionaries needed to do it.

    -I like the concept of governors, I just wish some of their higher tier policies have an effect on multiple cities. maybe make them incompatible with other governor policies. similar to different ideologies in Civ 5. right now you can just move them around from city to city to work on some special project (buy districts with faith, or gold, built certain improvements) and then move them again and repeat.

    -I do like diplomatic favor in the world congress; I just wish there were more interesting things to vote on. Some of those votes in Civ 5 could really kick you in the butt, like banning luxuries and trade or reducing great person spawning.

    -future tech could be up to anyone's imagination, but if you want more units, the giant death robot would have to be weakened. maybe make it only effective in open terrain (it's not like something that big ought to be able to move through woods or jungle easily)

    -spies have become better. I just wish there were fewer but more interesting missions. stop it with the recruit partisans! I find that mechanic obnoxious. It's almost as bad as Civ 4 where spies were basically invisible bombers that blow up your improvements. That's not fun at all.
     
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  5. nauberry

    nauberry Chieftain

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    You have very solid ideas there. I think with loyalty is just missing a more combined effect from tourism, culture and amenities to really work well. The ideological pressure could make it even more exiting than just the dark age/ golden age changes we have at the moment. It would be very cool to see loyalty struggles in larger border cities. I think cities with low loyalty should also start spawning rebel units instead of the recuit partisan spy mission. Then the reduced loyalty spy mission could be used to speed up the process if needed.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  6. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Added:
    • Ambassadors. Bring back being able to send Spies out as Ambassadors. That would give Spies three options or "roles" then, Spy, Counter-Spy and Ambassador, and also give everyone a bit more to do with Spies. Ambassadors could have their own missions, focused on diplomatic visibility, buffing spies, enhancing alliances and improving trade routes. And speaking of Spies...
     
  7. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,882
    Added:
    • Expanded Gov Plaza, Gov Buildings and National Wonders. National Wonders that can only be built next to your Gov Plaza or Capital. Add the ability to building Town Halls and Courts in other Cities to improve loyalty and or resist ideological pressure and or reduce maintenance costs.

    • Vassals and Colonies. Option to hold Cities as Vassal Cities or as Colonies, rather than just holding them outright. You have less control over the City (eg, can’t building anything in the production queue) and they are more vulnerable to Spies, but you get other benefits like increased Diplo Favour, yields etc. based on how loyal the Vassal or Colony is. You can also place late game Governors in these Cities with various effects and there are specific policies for these types of Cities.
    • More economy and Trade Nodes. Overhaul of maintenance and global happiness, so that managing late game empires is harder. Perhaps also have a slider, a bit like adjusting disaster intensity, so people can increase or decrease how hard maintenance is. Also add “Trade Nodes”. These are created by founding a Trading Company in a City. You can only have one Trade Node per Continent. International Trade Routes automatically route through Trade Nodes and provide benefits to Civ that controls the Trade Node (and yes, if you don’t manage to found a node, you have the option of capturing a City with a Trade Node). Also, rework Banks and Stock Markets to make them more interesting than just more flat gold.
    • Industrial Zone and other Buildings. Give the IZ additional T1 Building Options (eg Stone Masons, Forge), buff Workshop (eg +1 Housing) and add a non- power related T3 Building (eg a Tech Hub that buffs production and science). Add in some missing buildings, like Courts and Townhalls (see above), Hospitals, Public Schools.
    • Barbarians and City States. Give City States Unique Units, that you could use if you levy the City State, and create additional Diplo Options for City States beyond just Declare War and Levy. Give Barbarians more unique units. Also create Barb Cities that work a bit like City States (now called Free Cities). Free Cities replace Military City States and are what other Cities turn into when they loyalty flip. Envoys provide additional production for military units, and Suzerain provides additional great people. If you Loyalty flip the city, you gain back half of the envoys you put into the City.
    • Units and Wonders. Add Composite Bowmen, Trebuchet, Medieval Melee (please not “Longswordsmen”, instead maybe “Man at Arms” or “Halberdman”), more Future Units (and make Future Tech more useful generally). Make Aircraft Carriers work like the GDR, ie can’t form Amardas etc or earn XP / promotions, but gain bonuses / upgrades via tech tree. Generally rebalance units (particularly anti-cav and Tanks v Mech Infantry). Add Statue of Zesus and Ideological Wonders like Prora and Pentagon. Also add Apolostolic Palace and UN Building that give you additional Diplo Favour for World Congress and unlock new resolutions and emergencies / scored competitons.
     
  8. Birdism

    Birdism Chieftain

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    I agree with all your ideas, particularly about the need for ideological pressure which would tie different game mechanics together nicely.
    World Congress could use a rework as there are too many possible outcomes within one resolution that it feels like everyone is voting in their own corner on something different, unless by chance multiple civs coincidentally pick the same option.
    Trade Nodes / Trading companies is a great new idea that I would love to see implemented that could tie into a new economic victory. The ability to found a company could somehow be related to resources (either having diversity or multiple copies of same one - not sure what would be more interesting)
    Overall you offered great insights! Hope Firaxis read your post!
     
    acluewithout likes this.

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