Bribe Wars: A Discussion

[Dogberry_Old]

I am firmly against "house rules" of any kind..take a look at my guidelines ! How many of them are you violating ? That being said.. there is nothing wrong with peer pressure of the diplomatic kind. If you feel that certain kinds of bribing are the diplomatic equivalent of poison gas or bacterial warfare... do let other players know when somebody executes it against you.

If the game is "broken" in some areas & I remain unconvinced that it is.. it needs a patch or a programmatic fix..not a damn "house rule "!

Dog

P.S. ..keep in mind that from what I have seen so far.. Bribing is mostly a defensive measure.

 

[Dogberry_Old]

Unit Bribery..Defending Against

You are sweeping forward in a 3 to 1 strategic offensive agianst a portion of a long time rival empire.. your intention, cripple the other player & take a long step froward in winning the game. Suddenly, two enemy Diplomats pop out and bribe several crucial flanking assault units, the bribed units move & kill off several more units,, now your 3 to 1 , looks more like a 2 to 1 & you know the other player is moving up reinforcements. What do you do ? Slink back to your home base.. patch up an embarrasing peace ? ..or continue on & accept a grueling attritional war ?

The best thing is to avoid being put in this situation from the get go !

There are only two direct methods of preventing this.. being a Democracy & having units stacked with each other. That being said .. there are three indirect methods of avoiding unit bribery, they are:

• The Relative Size of each Player's Treasury
• The Relative Distances Involved
• Something that I call, for the want of a better term..Deflection

The first two should be seen as working in tandem with each other. There is little that you can do about distance, other than being aware that the further from your capital.. the action is, the more that you are vulnerable. Relative Treasuries are a different matter.

Prior to embarking on any ambitious offensive, you should have a good idea of what is in your rival's treasury ( you did establish an embassy ? ) & do everything that you can to bring yours into at least a rough parity. Forgo some science for 2 or 3 turns to build up cash. Got any barracks or city walls in places of marginal value ?.. sell'em. Anything else you can get rid of ? Go after that barbarian leader & get his ransom. Micromanage a little & exchange production & growth for trade arrows. Above all, factor in some extra force for losses due to bribing.

Deflection is a concept that is a little harder to understand, but in a nutshell .. it is the use of deception, distraction & the double stacking of units to protect your approach & at the point of decision to shield your most vulnerable areas.

Contary to all that we were taught back in single player days.. double stacking units makes a certain amount of sense. A strong attacker with a strong defender, a slow unit with a faster one ( at the end of the turn ), a cheap unit with an expensive one. Some examples: a phalanx with a chariot, a legion with a horseman, a cannon with a musketeer, a destroyer escorting that battleship.. engaged in shore bombardment.

A spy/diplomat with almost any unit. In fact salting your forces with a number of Spies or Diplomats is the first principle of Deflection.

Change your stacked/unstacked units as you move forward.. never giving your opponent a solid target for either a bribe or a counterattack. It might very well be that the first indication that a rival has of an impending attack should be a number of units with strong defensive values moving forward & seizing key jumping off points.. for double stacking with the heavy hitters.

Here, in my opinion are the kinds of situations & units that are prime targets for bribes:

1) <u>Single defensive units in key terrain..</u> If the terrain is that important, think seriously about putting a catapult or archer with that entrenched phalanx. Failing that, consider side-stepping. How much does your possesion of the position hinder your opponent ? How much would his/her possesion of it hurt you ? You might even earn a little gratitude & peace by giving it up.. or at the very least delay the attack & distort the rival's offensive deployment.

As an aside..when I double stack in defensive postions.. I commonly leave the heavy hitter alsleep.. so that when it wakes up..I am cued to take action.

2) <u>Heavy Hitters as they Approach Cities</u>..Stacking your Assaulters together with their often sub-par defensive values does not really make too much sense & frequently they are faster than the defensive units.. a good place for a diplomat or some other piece of misdirection. Need to be creative here !

3) <u>Single Follow Along Units..</u>especially on roads, & near bodies of water that your opponent has access to. A Diplomat in the rear, serving as an escort might be a good idea here. He could jump from unit to unit..as they move through the Danger Zone & then move forward himself at a certain point.

4) <u>Assaulting / Defending units on the Near Flanks...</u>this is where most of the double stacking should occur, especially on the flank that provides easy access from the opponent's point of view.

5) <u>Light Mobile Screening Forces on the Far Flanks..</u>Not much you can do here, but if the rival is going after these..as opposed to more vital things.. it is an indication of the success of your technique. Hopefully, your follow along forces will be strong enough to take care of them without undue disruption.

Some strong caveats are in order here:

these methods will not prevent unit bribery in any foolproof manner ( obviously ), but that is not it's main purpose. The main purpose is to turn bribing from a primary tactic to a secondary tactic in your opponent's hands.

Another one.. is the example that I am giving uses very many more units than you often find in quite crucial Civ conflicts.. but the same things apply at a smaller scale.

Finally, the last caveat is that when things go smash ( the battle is fully joined ) the circumstances will inevitably change .. and in ways that are not fully under your control. Vulnerabilties will reappear. Hopefully by this time you will accomplish most of your objectives, but this brings up the most dire bribing situation that I can think of..<u>A freshly taken city with most of your army next to it. </u> As I understand it.. not only might you lose the city.. you could also lose your whole army. Be prepared !

Dog

Formulas next !



[This message has been edited by Dogberry (edited June 23, 2001).]

 

[Tommo]

Of course bribing is a acceptable and highly amusing tactic. There is little to nothing funnier than concluding a peace treaty with a neighbouring AI and than moving in a spy/diplomat and bribing his capital into submission.

 

[EyesOfNight]

Yet again dogberry you somehow break the barrier of ignorance by this stunning insight into a little known tactic. How do you come by such secret information? I mean I see it on threads all the time, but really? Double stacking units? Who would have thought of something like that? Truly incredible.

 

[Dogberry_Old]

Oh.. enlighten us, King of the Swamps & the Sewers & Master of everything south of Antartica .. with your words of wisdom on these weighty matters. We all await anxiously.

Dog

[This message has been edited by Dogberry (edited June 23, 2001).]

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Bribing units is very expensive I note...cities is much more cost effective.

BUT as I always state in games where people think they have a magic strategy it is only magic if it cannot be turned around.

If you bribe a city of mine...I'll bribe it back (my treasury in the capital forcing a high price hopefully).
I get a 50% off the price of bribing my city back AND since the enemy treasury is lowered from bribing my city it will be even easier...and I will gain an enemy tech by getting back my city <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0>

If an enemy bribes...bribe back and fight him economically -it does depend as always as to how well matched your empire is with your opponent.

There are other obvious things like the courthouse and counterespionage...but the doubling of units idea sounds like a fools charter unless you have a fort there...and rarely does the construction of forts take much importance in the general run of things except at bottlenecks in continents.

That is as much as i want to devulge...I personnally am amazed that people have such a big problem with this item of the game considering that it can be turned both ways -maybe inducing restraint from more civilised players of this game before using diplomats in this manner.

[This message has been edited by kittenOFchaos (edited July 02, 2001).]

 

[Dogberry_Old]

From comments that I have seen here & elsewhere.. I would like to clarify the concept of deflection a little further.

Say you have 5 units in a struggle with another player on the map somewhere, & you can smell a bribe coming up. Deflection would have you double stacking the 2 units that are key to your plans.. by reason of both the power & the position of those units. Hopefully, it would be a strong defender with a strong attacker & in a position that has natural defensive advantages.

The concept would be enhanced .. if you had a 6th unit .. a Diplomat in the area. This would give you the flexibility to respond & counterbribe if necessary.

The purpose is to turn what might be a primary tactic of your opponent in a fluid situation .. into a secondary tactic, thus less potentially damaging.

Of course this is all very theoretical & I do hope that better methods will come out, through experience.

Dog

 

[EntirelyBS]

I like bribing units, away from the city and open to corruption. But I dislike bribing cities because of the lack of importance given to its strategic location which may make it invaluable to the person who built it...

 

[Dogberry_Old]

This will be the last post(s) in this series in this thread. I will bump it up occasionally, when the subject comes up repeatedly or if new information becomes available. Many of you will already be more-or-less familiar with these formulas & might be more interested in the calculations & the questions that are raised.

FORMULAS

vs. UNITS

Cost = (( Treasury + 750 ) / ( distance + 2 )) X ( unit cost / 10 )

Distance = 32 if the target has no palace
= 16 if the target is a barbarian
= 10 if the target's government is Communism.

Cost is divided by 2 if the target unit is a settler.

Of course, the units of Democracies & double stacked units are unbribable.

vs. CITIES

Cost = (( treasury + 1000 ) / ( distance + 3 )) X city size

Distance = 32 if the target has no palace ( I assume this is the case for barbarian cities ).
Distance is divided by 2 if the target city has a courthouse

Distance = 10 if the target government is Communism.

As always, enemy Capitals & cities under a Democracy are unbribable.

SOME MODIFIERS..all are accumalative

Target is in Civil Disorder.......cost halved
Target has no garrison............cost halved
Originally your city..............cost halved
Spy does bribing ................cost x 0.84
Vet Spy does bribing .............cost x 0.67

Other Considerations..

Subversion allows you to bribe without facing an automatic state of war ( useful against Republics ? )from the target player.

A bribed city will gain you a free advance just as does a conquered one.

All improvements remain intact ASIDE from temples & cathedrals ( ??!!)

You gain all units in & next to the city. All other units that draw production from that city are disbanded.

The presence of a Spy inside a city will prevent it from being bribed ( is this an error ? ).

These things raise some questions that I don't have the answers for.

1) If the target city was taken by force, is it considered "originally" yours ? Is this irregardless of the time that might have passed ? Irregardless of how many times that city might have changed hands & among how ever many players ?

2) Is the free advance in addition to or is it in place of advances gained from that city via other means ? One city = one advance is what I have always thought. Am I wrong ?

3) Do you also gain money from the Revolt..similiar to conquest ?

Dog

 

[Dogberry_Old]

CALCULATIONS:

Observations on the size of player Treasuries.

This is from some 3 to 4 dozen games played MP style in periods ranging to about 1000 AD.

First, experienced players quite often have low treasuries.. due to rush-buying. Often $ 100 or even less.

Most players have about $300-400. Players that have had good hut money luck, ransomed some barbarians or are picky or just have not seen the need to rush-buy, can have treasuries that range from $ 900 to $ 1200 during this period.

Somewhere between 600 AD & 1000 AD this starts to change as the player empires become more developed, less in need of rush-buys & cash becomes easier to come by. Even then it is largely a matter of degree not of a fundamental change. In x2 resource games, this change starts to occur between 400BC & 200 AD.


all fractions are rounded up.
T = Enemy Treasury
D = Distance from target's Capital

vs. UNITS

Cost 20 Units ( Phalanx, Horsemen )

100T: 5D-$243, 10D-$142, 15D-$100, 20D-$78, 25D-$63, 30D-$53
400T: 5D-$329, 10D-$192, 15D-$136, 20D-$105, 25D-$86, 30D-$72
800T: 5D-$443, 10D-$259, 15D-$183, 20D-$141, 25D-$115, 30D-$97
1200T: 5D-$558, 10D-$325, 15D-$230, 20D-$178, 25D-$145, 30D-$122
2000T: 5D-$786, 10D-$458, 15D-$324, 20D-$250, 25D-$204, 30D-$172

Cost 40 units ( Legions, Catapults, Knights, Crusaders )

100T: 5D-$486, 10D-$284, 15D-$200, 20D-$155, 25D-$126, 30D-$107
400T: 5D-$658, 10D-$384, 15D-$271, 20D-$210, 25D-$171, 30D-$144
800T: 5D-$886, 10D-$517, 15D-$365, 20D-$282, 25D-$230, 30D-$194
1200T: 5D-$1115, 10D-$650, 15D-$459, 20D-$355, 25D-$289, 30D-$244
2000T: 5D-$1571, 10D-$917, 15D-$648, 20D-$500, 25D-$408, 30D-$344

Cost 80 units ( Tank Corps )

100T: 5D-$972, 10D-$567, 15D-$400, 20D-$310, 25D-$252, 30D-$213
400T: 5D-$1325, 10D-$767, 15D-$542, 20D-$419, 25D-$341, 30D-$288
800T: 5D-$1772, 10D-$1034, 15D-$730, 20D-$564, 25D-$460, 30D-388
1200T: 5D-$2229, 10D-$1300, 15D-$918, 20D-$710, 25D-$578, 30D-$488
2000T: 5D-$3143, 10D-$1834, 15D-$1295, 20D-$1000, 25D-$815, 30D-$688


vs. CITIES

Size 5 City

100T: 5D-$688, 15D-$306, 25D-$197
400T: 5D-$875, 15D-$389, 25D-$250
800T: 5D-$1125, 15D-$500, 25D-$322
1200T: 5D-$1375, 15D-$612, 25D-$393
2000T: 5D-$1875, 15D-$834, 25D-$536

Size 8 City

100T: 5D-$1100, 15D-$489, 25D-$315
400T: 5D-$1400, 15D-$623, 25D-$400
800T: 5D-$1800, 15D-$800, 25D-$515
1200T: 5D-$2200, 15D-$978, 25D-$629
2000T: 5D-$3000, 15D-$1334, 25D-$858

Size 12 City

100T: 5D-$1650, 15D-$734, 25D-$472
400T: 5D-$2100, 15D-$934, 25D-$600
800T: 5D-$2700, 15D-$1200, 25D-$772
1200T: 5D-$3300, 15D-$1467, 25D-$943
2000T: 5D-$4500, 15D-$2000, 25D-$1286


CONCLUSIONS:

First.. because of the modifiers & the possible loss of temples/cathedrals, bribing especially of cities is a FAR more viable defensive tactic than if it is done offensively. If used offensively.. it is not so much a tactic/technique ( something that is done over & over, until the enemy crumbles ) as it is a startegic decision of some importance. This changes at the margins ( low target treasuries, great distances ) & as the game matures. Again it is a matter of degree, not some definite point in the game.

I don't believe that there is a need for any "house" rules against bribery under most circumstances.

Dog

[This message has been edited by Dogberry (edited July 29, 2001).]

 

[TrailblazingScot]

What little dogberry bought prima´s guide to the secrets of civ2...LOL.

 

[Dogberry_Old]

Yep.. that & the manuals themselves. Had the Prima guide since I got Civ 2 Classic, 4 or 5 years ago. They used to be a lot better..back when Alan Emrich & others did them. Rome on 640K a Day & the ones for Master of Magic & Master of Orion are classics.

If you see any errors or know of anything that would seem to contravene these things..please do point them out.

Dog

 

[TrailblazingScot]

I´m certainly getting the guided version of civ3...these strat books are fun to read when stuck out in the middle of no-where (like me now...spain is v.backward IMHO...Sir Richard Grenville was so keen to fight to the death as he knew the alternative may have been living in Spain farming goats).

 

[EyesOfNight]

What exactly was the point of all this? You're as bad as Alan Nicoll. Is there even anything new in there or is it just old stuff that you've copied off of others?

 

[SlowwHand]

See you down the road, Eyes.
Adios, mutha.

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It's In The Way That You Use It
Tuatha De Danann Tribe
ICQ 51553293

 

[Dogberry_Old]

Originally posted by EyesOfNight:
What exactly was the point of all this? You're as bad as Alan Nicoll. Is there even anything new in there or is it just old stuff that you've copied off of others?

Jeez... who is this "Eyes of Night" character & why does he hate me so much ? Just can't do anything to please him.

BTW..at long last, I have some free(er) time & will be around & in the gaming mode tonite & tomorrow evening.

Eyes, the point of all of this, if you will go back to the beginning, was to spare myself from trying to have to argue about it by means of ICQ or some other convoluted method. Also to put the whole question of "bribery" into some sort of context within the game as I have experienced it..thus far. People may not agree with me, but they can debate the point here.

Dog


[This message has been edited by Dogberry (edited August 01, 2001).]

 

[Dogberry_Old]

Originally posted by SlowwHand:
See you down the road, Eyes.
Adios, mutha.

Er...not sure what you mean by this Sloww. I hope nobody plans on doing anything hasty on my account. Eyes is just a "useful fool" as far as I am concerned.

Dog

 

[TrailblazingScot]

I´m sure you made a typo is your last post...eyesOFnight can´t be a useful fool...he can be a tool in the context you use!

(tool = a thingy)

 

[Dogberry_Old]

No..I meant FOOL, Kitty..as he way overestimates his irritant value as far as I am concerned. Also he gives me the chance to refer back to things or clarify stuff. I even get the occasional chance to go after him in a humorous manner.

Since, unlike others here, I have not & will not play him in his particular arena..his jabber has zero emotional content for me.

Dog

 

[SunTzu]

Sloww meant that Eyes has been banned permanently. He called TF a dumb mother focker or some crap like that.

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