B's cavern - an open planning thread

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Welcome to the Cavern

I thought about this a few days ago, and didn't think it was all that useful (mainly with this forum saturated with games vs available players at the moment), but MP's post in LK's planning thread made me think it might be a good one precisely because of the saturation.

This thread is meant for anyone to ask questions about variants and test interest for any given SG they fancy. If you're not sure whether a game would grab interest, you may put a post in here somewhere to ask. Hopefully this thread will not get ignored. If the need is great enough it could be re-titled and re-headed to something more official, but that is yet to see.

Notes:
1)

THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL SG POSTING THREAD, DISCUSSIONS/PLANNING ONLY!

If you think about starting a SG but are unsure of what to do exactly, you are encouraged to post several ideas so that people's feedback will more likely lead to a choice of one rather than a yes/no thing.
Here is the registry thread, for when your idea has reached desireable interest. Same for "missing a player" stuff.

2) It would be nice if the thread was mainly used for SG planning and variants discussion, so game propositions and relevant comments about them are more than welcome, but you can always keep those short I'm interested type of posts for PM's. I assume people who'll post game ideas here are big enough to edit their rosters themselves after being PM'd.

3) If you have new ideas for more creative variants, it would be nice to see them around here, so that they can be peer-reviewed before they screw up. I'll try and keep the 2nd post updated on those that do grab interest, basically so that there is a common basis and no one has to explain anything about already known variants further along the thread.

Hopefully this can help bring a balance to the amount of players and the amount of games out there in the forum. Worst case scenario is this gets ignored and no one's hurt

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Here is Arathorn's bible about variants (and the link to the original thread):

[spoiler='Classic' variants]

I've tried to compile a comprehensive guide to variants that I've seen in stories and tales, succession games, the main forum, or other places. If you've ever wondered how some of these games are played, a starting point can be found here.

Always War (AW): When you meet an opponent (as soon as they appear on the F2/F4/Shift-D diplomacy screen, you’ve met them), you must declare war on them – THAT turn. You can make initial deals for hard goods only (no gpt deals, no alliances, no resource/luxury trades). Opening the diplomacy window to spy techs, cities, resources, etc. is allowed. Signing peace for even a single turn is prohibited.
Arathorn’s comments: Adds about 1.5-2 difficulty levels. Games usually take significantly longer. Once you’re past the “Can I hold my front?” stage and making progress forward, it’s usually won. Approximately doubles the time required to play. Sample Game

AW Sub-variants:
Restricted Always War (RAW): Add to AW rules, no initial trading and/or must declare war during the first visit to the diplomacy window with a particular foe instead at end of turn.
Arathorn’s comments: These are just flavoring and change the dynamics of AW very little. They’re really minor.

Anti-Numismatist: (a.k.a. Non-Midas) You are never allowed to end your turn with much gold in your treasury – typically 10 gold is the maximum allowed, although that’s by no means sacred. No deficit research, no steals, no cash purchases and upgrades are hard to do.
Arathorn’s comments: No personal experience but probably adds 1/2-2/3 a difficulty level. Sample Game

Defiant: You must never give in to a demand from an opponent, that is, you always reject demands for tribute. You may never ally, sign a Right of Passage, MPP, or embargo with another civilization. You may never pay for peace (a peace treaty must either be straight-up or the opponent gives a concession to you. A deal where a tech costs 20 gpt normally and you pay 10 gpt for that tech as part of a peace treaty is fine). Any troops on your soil must be given a boot order every turn. No capturing foreign cities or demanding them in diplomacy. No foreign workers merged into existing cities. If an AI razes one of your cities, that civ must be eliminated.
Arathorn’s comments: Makes very little difference on the easier levels but gets crazier on the high difficulty levels. Probably 2/3 of a difficulty level or so. Usually adds to game length, especially >Emperor. Sample Game

Fast Moving: Military units with movement one may never exit your cultural borders. Settlers and workers are not military units and so are allowed outside your cultural borders.
Arathorn’s comments: Makes conquest a bit harder, especially in the cavalry age. Requires a start with horses attainable. Any barbarians at all would be lunacy. Probably 1/2 a difficulty level. Sample Game

Five City Challenge (5CC): You may never have more than five cities. If at any point you have more than five cities, you break this variant.
Arathorn’s comments: This one isn’t as hard as it sounds. Diplomacy is critical, as luxuries and resources are cheap and staying in minimal war generally important. Hardest part is determining the location of the 5 cities, often. Plays 1/4 difficulty level harder. Plays slightly faster than normal, usually. Sample Game

5CC Sub-variants:
Five City Conquest Challenge (5CCC): A 5CC wherein the only accepted winning condition is conquest.
Arathorn’s comments: Added difficulty is fairly high here. A late-game charge is the way to win. 3/4 of a difficulty level. Sample Game
Five City Space Challenge (5CSC): A 5CC wherein the only accepted winning condition is a space launch.
Arathorn’s comments: Not TOO much harder than general 5CC. 1/3-1/2 difficulty level.
Relaxed Five City Challenge: A 5CC wherein the requirements are relaxed to never end a turn with more than 5 cities. Additional cities can be acquired/built during the main turn but all the extras must be disbanded before the end of the turn. This allows building additional armies and accepting cities as peace tributes.

Infantry: No fast units (units with movement > 1) may ever be built, except scouts. That means no chariots, horsemen, knights, cavalry, mechanized infantry, or UUs based on those units. “Special” UUs affected are jaguar warrior, impi, and Gaelic warrior.
Arathorn’s comments: Adds a lot of time to the game. Artillery becomes incredibly important. Can help hone a lot of strategies. 1/3 difficulty level. Sample Game

Non-Oscillating War (NOW): The first civ met must have war declared on them during initial diplomacy. Each later civ met gets added, in order, to a list. When the first AI civ on the list is eliminated, war must be declared on the second. As each is eliminated, the next must be declared on before the end of the turn. Other wars are allowed, and alliances are encouraged. Sandbagging or not finishing off a defeated foe simply to not go to war with the next one on the list is illegal. When two or more civs are met simultaneously (via contact sale, perhaps), it is player’s choice which order to declare on them.
Arathorn’s comments: The ability to make alliances is a huge difference from AW. Time commitment is significant, as every turn is a war turn. 1/3 a difficulty level, probably. Sample Game

No Military: You may not build military units ever. Settlers, workers, and buildings are allowed. Not for the faint of heart.
Arathorn’s comments: Appears to depend a fair bit on luck. I would expect it to run faster than average but I don’t really know. Sample Game

No Optional Tech (NOT): You may not research/trade for/acquire optional techs in any manner.
Arathorn’s comments: No clue on this one, but it looks interesting. See this post for more repercussions.

No Research: No research means no research. Not only must your science slider always be set at 0%, you are not allowed to make any scientist specialists. This means trading. Gaining techs from wonders is allowed, so it's possible to gain monopoly techs, even in this variant! Choosing a tech to "research" is always allowed (and encouraged, because it has definite value)...you're just not allowed to actually put any commerce to researching it.
Arathorn’s comments: For some, it’s barely a variant! Surprisingly easy but teaches trading. Adds no difficulty. Sample Game

One Built City (OBC): You may never build settlers…from any city. Similar to OCC but you can gain via war/culture/etc.
Arathorn’s comments: Easier than OCC and with similar sub-variants, except Domination is possible. Sample Game

One City Challenge (OCC): You may never have more than one city. Acquiring a second city by any means for any length of time is a disqualification.
Arathorn’s comments: Plays pretty fast, in general, with so few units and so little city management to do. Diplomacy is usually critical. Plays 1/3-2/3 difficulty level harder. Sample Game

OCC Sub-variants:
One City Conquest Challenge (OCCC): An OCC wherein the only accepted winning condition is conquest.
Arathorn’s comments: You either win fairly early or you don’t win. The clock is always ticking. Sample Game – relaxed OCCC
One City Space Challenge (OCSC): An OCC wherein the only accepted winning condition is a space launch.
Arathorn’s comments: Used to be really REALLY hard to get all the shields you need, but with C3C pushing out the tech, not quite as bad. Still probably a full difficulty level harder. Sample Game
Relaxed One City Challenge: An OCC wherein the requirements are relaxed to never end a turn with more than one city. Additional cities can be acquired/built during the main turn but all the extras must be disbanded before the end of the turn. This allows building armies and accepting cities as peace tributes.

Oscillating War (OW): You must always be at war with a neighboring civilization. Psuedowars (where neither side can really reach the other) do not count. When peace is signed with the current foe, war must be immediately declared on another enemy.
Arathorn’s comments: Seems to be an almost optimal strategy for a human to carry out. Plays almost easier than a regular game, if possibly a bit more time-consuming. Sample Game

Passive: You may never attack a city. If you lose one of your cities, it’s gone. Accepting culture flips, using propaganda, and attacking units in the open are all allowed.
Arathorn’s comments: Plays reasonably easily unless you’re trying for domination. Great way to enforce SOME builder’s tactics while still letting warmongers shed some blood. Alone, it’s not too much of a variant, but it shines in combination with other goals. Sample Game

Passive sub-variants:
Relaxed Passive: You may bombard cities with artillery units (catapult, trebuchet, cannon, artillery, radar artillery, fighter, bomber, stealth fighter/bomber, ships). You still may not capture a city militarily.

Tactless: You may never initiate diplomacy. If the AI initiates diplomacy, you must either reject or accept their offer. No haggling.
Arathorn’s comments: Not checking diplomacy definitely makes the game go faster. Doing all your own research and never getting to trade on your terms is actually a significant challenge. I’d estimate a full difficulty level challenge with this variant. Sample Game

Combinations of variants are also lots of fun. It’s sometimes hard to predict how certain variants will play out together. Certain variants almost completely subsume other variants (AW, for example, almost completely comprises NOW, oscillating war, and defiant). Essentially adding tactless to AW is pretty common and works well. You can combine lots into one variant. Other combinations seem to be suicidal (AW and no military, for example).

Variants can force you to consider new ways of playing the game and help bridge the gap between difficulty levels (e.g. a player who consistently beats monarch but really struggles at emperor can try a variant for an in-between experience and eventually move up or stay in that monarch variant range). Variants work well with any difficulty level and are a way of adding spice to your game that’s different from full-fledged mods. Try one out today!

Arathorn

[/spoiler]

Since SGOTM variants become well-known for the fact they are SGOTM games, I'll throw them here as well:

Spoiler SGOTM variants :

SGOTM3: Xenophobic NOW
The Xenophobic part of the variant runs as follows.
1. You may never own a foreign worker. You must never buy or sell one, and if you capture them they must be disbanded on the tile on which they were captured.
2. All deals must be at face value. No haggling.
3. You will not establish embassies.
4. You will never retain a town that contains foreign citizens. Such towns must be razed and any workers spawned disbanded.

SGOTM8: Hydrophobic Conquest
The Hydrophobic rules are simple: you will build no boats.

No link added on this one yet since it is not over.

Other common variants

Spoiler Other common and/or known variants :

Other common variants include Silent (a bit softer than tactless) and government restrictions (time-frame or plain usage restrictions).

A more extensive variant about governments is Bianezzi's Arab Invasions SG

Spoiler Bianezzi's variant :

- Governments WILL influence the game! The rules for government types are:

Despotism: Dinasty time 20 turns. No special rules: you are the Supreme Caliph and can do anything you want.
Monarchy: Dinasty time 20 turns. No special rules too, you're still the powerful Caliph.
Feudalism: Dinasty time 20 turns. SPECIAL RULE: If you are going to war, you HAVE to ask permission to the next person in queue for playing after you. That is to simulate the need for the local warlords approval of war. So, you can only declare war if the next allows you to do it. Else, you CAN'T. Of course there's nothing you can do if other nation declares war on you.
Republic: Dinasty time 10 turns. No special rules, as you are a President voted by a Council of Islamic Leaders and you're authorized to do anything.
Democracy: Dinasty time 10 turns in Medieval and Industrial times, 5 turns in Modern times. SPECIAL RULE: If you are going to war, you HAVE to make get the approval in an ellection. This can be made by a forum poll, an e-mail poll or other ways. You need a minimum of 3 votes out of 5 to declare war, else you can't do it.
Communism: Dinasty time 15 turns. You are the Prime-Minister of People's Republic of Arabian States, and you are authorized to anything, so you there's no special rule.
Fascism: Dinasty time 15 turns. SPECIAL RULE: You are the Supreme Emir, and in order to keep your authocratic power you MUST engage a war. You can turn to fascism after declaring a war or before you do it, but you must be in a war at the end of your dinasty, before you send the turn to me.

- Changing the Government: you can make a revolution anytime you want, but you MUST end your dinasty after you declare it. For example, you are playing as a Monarchy and wants to change for Communism. You make a revolution, save the game and send it back to me, no matter how many turns you have left for your dinasty. You are being overthrown! The next player is then going to play the Anarchy period AND his dinasty time. In the example, he's going to play the anarchic period PLUS the 15 turns that Communism allows him to play. The previous player can play again after the other person played.

Thanks AK for the following 2:

barbaric - you may never ever build or acquire a building that generates culture. Barbaric lite lets you build small wonders and keep the ToA if you capture it

opium barons - wars are a function of keeping the peeps happy. The more lux you own, the fewer offensive wars you are permitted to start per age. For example, if you own one lux in the ancient age, you may start 7 wars. If you own all 8 in the MA, you may never start a war. On its own, not a challenge, add a few other restrictions, can be fun.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

While screwing around in my SGOTM8 turnlogs, I thought about a "Radio Silence" type of variant:

- Mass regicide, so that there is one "HQ" with all the king units where decisions take place
- This HQ would be the center of the empire, where the King rules the place. He would then supply orders by moving troops around (chariots/scouts/explorers/king for messengers) which would get renamed after the given orders (i.e. "attack the chinese through to the capital" to a stack of knights or "focus on worker builds" to a group of cities). A king unit would of course go faster at game start but be more dangerous on the long run...

So that's the spirit, some stuff might make it more coherent (at first sight) by adding a few other details, which might have to be changed to make the variant playable. Those are my first impressions on such addendum's:

- First ring of cities could be controlled as pleased, 2nd ring when horses are connected, 3rd with Mil Trad, total control of all cities railed with Steam Power, and then everything (obsoleting the variant) with Electronics, Radio or one such tech (depending on the mod)
- An empire planning must be decided and any new city must be given a queue of builds accordingly
- Troops on the front that have accomplished a mission must be given new orders through a messenger from the HQ, unless there is an army to lead them to the front again.
- Off-shore colonies might be given orders through a messenger that sailed over or by a ship "relay" of orders
- The HQ could be split in 2 with a FP, in 3 with a SPHQ, decreasing the limitations.

I think this would need a lot of planning and renaming units to call orders around, and might render a game much longer than normal - especially a warmongering one. It would also advantage inca/aztecs and drag a bit of the production capacity and unit support for everyone because of the early messengers. However, it would give a stronger feel of what it was like to command an empire before communications were made easy with radio and rails.

Suggestions ?

 

[CommandoBob]

Not my idea, but it sounds neat. The Civ is Arab.

- Governments WILL influence the game! The rules for government types are:

Despotism: Dinasty time 20 turns. No special rules: you are the Supreme Caliph and can do anything you want.
Monarchy: Dinasty time 20 turns. No special rules too, you're still the powerful Caliph.
Feudalism: Dinasty time 20 turns. SPECIAL RULE: If you are going to war, you HAVE to ask permission to the next person in queue for playing after you. That is to simulate the need for the local warlords approval of war. So, you can only declare war if the next allows you to do it. Else, you CAN'T. Of course there's nothing you can do if other nation declares war on you.
Republic: Dinasty time 10 turns. No special rules, as you are a President voted by a Council of Islamic Leaders and you're authorized to do anything.
Democracy: Dinasty time 10 turns in Medieval and Industrial times, 5 turns in Modern times. SPECIAL RULE: If you are going to war, you HAVE to make get the approval in an ellection. This can be made by a forum poll, an e-mail poll or other ways. You need a minimum of 3 votes out of 5 to declare war, else you can't do it.
Communism: Dinasty time 15 turns. You are the Prime-Minister of People's Republic of Arabian States, and you are authorized to anything, so you there's no special rule.
Fascism: Dinasty time 15 turns. SPECIAL RULE: You are the Supreme Emir, and in order to keep your authocratic power you MUST engage a war. You can turn to fascism after declaring a war or before you do it, but you must be in a war at the end of your dinasty, before you send the turn to me.

- Changing the Government: you can make a revolution anytime you want, but you MUST end your dinasty after you declare it. For example, you are playing as a Monarchy and wants to change for Communism. You make a revolution, save the game and send it back to me, no matter how many turns you have left for your dinasty. You are being overthrown! The next player is then going to play the Anarchy period AND his dinasty time. In the example, he's going to play the anarchic period PLUS the 15 turns that Communism allows him to play. The previous player can play again after the other person played.

Originally posted by Bianezzi here as ground rules for a Succession Game named The Arab Invasion - Open Sucession Game .

 

[CommandoBob]

Hmm.

I may have misread this thread.

@Beorn-eL-Feared: Is this to be a variant creation or variant discussion thread? If both, what percentage of each? 60-40 creation-discussion, 50-50, 75-25? Or perhaps merely more of one than the other? Just trying to get a feel for what you expect.

 

[Own]

I think it's Beorn SG planning. Btw, for example, BO1, is that BO 1 or is it B 01? Just curious.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

@Bob: more like 80 game planning - 20 variant discussing.
However, there needs to be some common basis set forth at first so that everyone understands each other and doesn't start posting pages and pages of variants explanation everywhere - not when it's already done somewhere. Appreciated input though.

@Own, it would be B(Zero)1. For instance, I was thinking about making B05 a Radio Silence (RS) game next, if anyone shows interest. Possibly on RaR if no one objects, to make it crunchier with 2-movement roads. Certainly an EMP+ game, but no exageration due to the testing nature of the game.

B05 - Ra(R)dio Silence
Unofficial Roster:
- Beorn
- Open
- Open
- Open
- Open

B05 - Radio (C3)Cilence
Unofficial Roster:
- Beorn
- Open
- Open
- Open
- Open

B05 - Revenge of the non-christians
Variant: same as B03, on the "New World" Conquest scenario, EMP
Unofficial Roster:
- Beorn
- Open
- Open
- Open
- Open

 

[MeteorPunch]

This should be stickied. So many games die right off the bat.

 

[Own]

Radio Silence? What's that?

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

3rd post, Own

 

[Own]

Silly me, I read this then forgot, checked Arathorn's variants's, didn't see it then posted. Sounds like a good idea, but school just started, and I may have to quit some SG's, definately not join any.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Same, and I didn't really mean to post it so early (it won't start until I'm down to 3-4 SG's), but Bob made me think it needed a visual example for people unused to planning threads.

 

[Own]

I think someone should start a general SG planning thread to see if anyone is interested in the idea before you start an SG nobody will join in. Everyone starting their own thread seems a bit silly.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Dude, this

IS

a general SG planning thread

 

[Own]

No, I mean for everyone to use. By "General" I meant not for one person's SG's. LK has his own, you have your own, and IIRC Aggie had his (her?) own as well.

 

[MeteorPunch]

ah own...

now is this a planning thread or a spamming thread.

I have 3 games that I'd like to see if anyone is interested in:

AWM 5CC
AWM Sengoku scenario
AWR or AWM, small map, 8-12 opponents

PM me or post here if interested in one.

 

[Own]

I like posting here to increase my count. AWM 5CC sounds good, but I can't join any more SG's. AWM Sengoku was once tried, and failed miserably. Sengoku doesnt seem to be good for AW, as artillery is weak and other reasons.

 

[CommandoBob]

Unless stated otherwise, C3C v1.22 is the version of Civ3 being played.

True or False?

 

[nerovats]

I am thinking about starting a zero research SG. Trading is my biggest flaw, so this should help develop it. Not sure about level though monarch/emperor, and not sure if anyone would be interested...

 

[jm chen]

I know I wouldn't have time to run an SG myself, but an idea for someone else to run with --

A variant shift from OCC to AW. So maybe you're an OCC until 0 A.D., and then you have to declare on everyone. Could be played OCC -->Oscillating War if you wanted something a little easier. Still, I don't know if it could be done above Monarch, unless it's an amazing start.