AI is definately worse. Sure it has its shining moments, but when this becomes common, its got issues:
Look at the date, now look at improved tiles. Also this is his only city.
Was this on marathon speed?
edit:
nm, I know what causes this.
-
Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
BtS AI - Is it better?
- Thread starter jonpfl
- Start date
Was this on marathon speed?
edit:
nm, I know what causes this.
sigmakan
Warlord
- Joined
- May 7, 2006
- Messages
- 217
I'm gunna throw out a guess as to why this is happening. My guess is that the AI might not know what to do with the unhealthiness. It probably doesnt start settler/worker production till size 3. And if it notices that its getting any unhealthiness it turns on avoid growth. So if an AI starts in a place with lots of floodplains, it'll be stuck.
Thats my guess atleast, I'm sure Blake knows whats wrong.
Also, is it me or does the food not add up?
3 from floodplain + 2 from city - 1 for unhealthiness = 4
The above is showing that 5 food is being produced.
Thats my guess atleast, I'm sure Blake knows whats wrong.
Also, is it me or does the food not add up?
3 from floodplain + 2 from city - 1 for unhealthiness = 4
The above is showing that 5 food is being produced.
I agree there's a bug in the governor. I had the 'stagnant city' bug many times and I had to emphasize food to make it grow : the governor was choosing to produce more and stop the growth, which is strange. It could explain in part why sometimes the AI looks so good in production and not so good on tech.
It happened to the normal governor without emphasis, on normal speed (agg AI off when it happened), emperor level. I doubt the setting cares, but who knows.
It happened to the normal governor without emphasis, on normal speed (agg AI off when it happened), emperor level. I doubt the setting cares, but who knows.
My answer to the OP is an emphatic "yes!". I believe, as some others have mentioned, the apparent "worsening" of the AI economy in their cities and in research is due to two things: espionage spending and the reduced AI bonuses. On espionage spending, some leaders, like Hammurabi or Joao II, must be putting in some 20% per turn to get that many espionage points...I tend to watch those graphs, and they always soar ahead of me in espionage, even in the Classic Age before Courthouses and other spy buildings!
In war, the AI is so much better, I cannot even describe it: it's almost as if I am playing a new game. In one game, I was playing Justinian, and had a loose coalition of myself, Joao II, and Hammurabi, all Hindu, against the Buddhist Boudica. She was utterly vicious...sending mixed stacks to counterattack my forces (we were fighting in Portugal, between our two lands), and sacking cities left and right (poor Portugal was down to 3 from 7 for awhile, until I took some back for him). I noticed the mixed stacks especially: no longer does the AI send 15 mounted and a couple of siege units at you. Now, they play the same game you do with the mixed stacks. Also, Boudica tended to send waves of troops instead of the trickling of a single unit here and there for several turns: I fought at least 4 fresh stacks in the first war alone. Not to mention when the AI goes to attack your city, they send all their troops into the fray, knowing the possibility of victory is higher when you are attacking the wounded troops that don't have the time to heal or get new promotions. Before, the AI would send in a trebutchet one turn, then maybe a few cavalry, and their siege would lose steam because they would sacrifice their units without committing the whole force, even if the odds looked good. Now, that's different.
I might be moving up to Monarch after these couple Prince games (being that I can maintain tech parity much easier), but overall I am duly impressed with the AI's warmongering abilities.
@Weltschmerz: I would call that war underprepared, if anything. By the Middle Ages, my main combat force will involve 20- to 30-some mixed units (I tend to play smaller maps, as well--rarely anything above Standard size), and I heavily prefer crossbows to maces unless they are for attacking cities. Stacks of crossbows, pikes, and siege equipment are virtually indomitable.
In war, the AI is so much better, I cannot even describe it: it's almost as if I am playing a new game. In one game, I was playing Justinian, and had a loose coalition of myself, Joao II, and Hammurabi, all Hindu, against the Buddhist Boudica. She was utterly vicious...sending mixed stacks to counterattack my forces (we were fighting in Portugal, between our two lands), and sacking cities left and right (poor Portugal was down to 3 from 7 for awhile, until I took some back for him). I noticed the mixed stacks especially: no longer does the AI send 15 mounted and a couple of siege units at you. Now, they play the same game you do with the mixed stacks. Also, Boudica tended to send waves of troops instead of the trickling of a single unit here and there for several turns: I fought at least 4 fresh stacks in the first war alone. Not to mention when the AI goes to attack your city, they send all their troops into the fray, knowing the possibility of victory is higher when you are attacking the wounded troops that don't have the time to heal or get new promotions. Before, the AI would send in a trebutchet one turn, then maybe a few cavalry, and their siege would lose steam because they would sacrifice their units without committing the whole force, even if the odds looked good. Now, that's different.
I might be moving up to Monarch after these couple Prince games (being that I can maintain tech parity much easier), but overall I am duly impressed with the AI's warmongering abilities.
@Weltschmerz: I would call that war underprepared, if anything. By the Middle Ages, my main combat force will involve 20- to 30-some mixed units (I tend to play smaller maps, as well--rarely anything above Standard size), and I heavily prefer crossbows to maces unless they are for attacking cities. Stacks of crossbows, pikes, and siege equipment are virtually indomitable.
JayThomas
Warlord
When commenting on the AI, could people specifiy their AI setting (norm or aggressive)?
eric_
Emperor
The more I play, the more I feel that the AI is *definitely* improved.
Last night I was playing a game - Normal AI, Standard size, Hemispheres, 3 continents, Noble (used to do decently on Prince, now I struggle on Noble!). I'm on a "Y" shaped continent with Justinian as my only direct neighbor. I started at the bottom of the stem of the "Y" and am expanding to the right upper prong. Justinian started at the top of the left prong of the "Y". We had an early war where I took a city he had built near the point where the two prongs meet, another that was at the base of the left prong (this contained his only metal resource), and razed a third that was on the coast on the left side of the stem. I'm Dutch, and my strategy was to take those two cities, raze the third (in a poor location for my city layout), and sue for peace. Then, being creative, and seeing as how the BFC of the his old metal-containing city would extend my borders to the sea, the idea was to use the five-turn border pop to secure the area where his razed city had been, which I could then backfill with a settler I had started building. Great.
Except that he got a settler by a turn before my border popped. Kind of annoying, but not a huge deal. I went back to amassing a small army to overwhelm his flimsy defense of the new city (though not nearly as flimsy as it would have been in Warlords) and otherwise set myself to builder mode.
Well, three turns later, the situation became a real problem. He actually culture bombed the new town, relegating the city I had taken from him to a rapidly shrinking area of control. Now I had to move back out of builder mode and in to full on war production mode, because his old metal-holding city was starting to revolt, and slowly came to work only the single tile that housed the city. And, his culture bomb had immediately pulled the copper mine back under his control.
I had to seriously consider my tactics when taking this city back, as he has proved quite good at using horse archers and catapults to wear down my stacks. I had to pull offensive troops from the shrinking city and circle back through my territory, allowing me to approach his city from the south. These met up with troops I was pumping out of my cities. I managed to take back the city pretty quickly, but I lost a lot of turns I wanted to use to beef up my economy.
Anyway, I was really impressed by all of this. Of course, a century or so later he declared war and tried to grab the city which controls his old copper mine,. This backfired on him when my pikes mopped up his HUGE stack of horse archers and ended when I took yet another city from him. But, still, it's quite likely that this whole back and forth has slowed me down to a point that any civs on peaceful continents will be hard to catch. So, color me convinced that the AI is smarter...
Last night I was playing a game - Normal AI, Standard size, Hemispheres, 3 continents, Noble (used to do decently on Prince, now I struggle on Noble!). I'm on a "Y" shaped continent with Justinian as my only direct neighbor. I started at the bottom of the stem of the "Y" and am expanding to the right upper prong. Justinian started at the top of the left prong of the "Y". We had an early war where I took a city he had built near the point where the two prongs meet, another that was at the base of the left prong (this contained his only metal resource), and razed a third that was on the coast on the left side of the stem. I'm Dutch, and my strategy was to take those two cities, raze the third (in a poor location for my city layout), and sue for peace. Then, being creative, and seeing as how the BFC of the his old metal-containing city would extend my borders to the sea, the idea was to use the five-turn border pop to secure the area where his razed city had been, which I could then backfill with a settler I had started building. Great.
Except that he got a settler by a turn before my border popped. Kind of annoying, but not a huge deal. I went back to amassing a small army to overwhelm his flimsy defense of the new city (though not nearly as flimsy as it would have been in Warlords) and otherwise set myself to builder mode.
Well, three turns later, the situation became a real problem. He actually culture bombed the new town, relegating the city I had taken from him to a rapidly shrinking area of control. Now I had to move back out of builder mode and in to full on war production mode, because his old metal-holding city was starting to revolt, and slowly came to work only the single tile that housed the city. And, his culture bomb had immediately pulled the copper mine back under his control.
I had to seriously consider my tactics when taking this city back, as he has proved quite good at using horse archers and catapults to wear down my stacks. I had to pull offensive troops from the shrinking city and circle back through my territory, allowing me to approach his city from the south. These met up with troops I was pumping out of my cities. I managed to take back the city pretty quickly, but I lost a lot of turns I wanted to use to beef up my economy.
Anyway, I was really impressed by all of this. Of course, a century or so later he declared war and tried to grab the city which controls his old copper mine,. This backfired on him when my pikes mopped up his HUGE stack of horse archers and ended when I took yet another city from him. But, still, it's quite likely that this whole back and forth has slowed me down to a point that any civs on peaceful continents will be hard to catch. So, color me convinced that the AI is smarter...
I saw a first for the AI, at least in my games: the Mongolians used a swarm of Flanking I and II Keshiks to soften up my spears and took minimal losses, and then made their heavy cavalry strike. I've never seen the AI use a large number of flanking units before, and I have to admit that I am impressed again.
eric_
Emperor
That's EXACTLY what Justinian has been doing every time we war. I have a bunch of spears in my stacks, but his numbers wear them down, and they all have Flank II, so they withdraw a lot and also cause my cats a LOT of grief.
Fortunately I've kept him teching very slowly and he doesn't yet have cataphracts. Sabotaging courthouses is proving to be a decent strategy.
Oh, also, Justinian is using espionage really well, sabotaging my horse pasture, poisoning the water supply of particularly vulnerable cities (those that aren't heavily developed, so they can't quickly recover), etc.
·Imhotep·
Legendary Builder
Frankly I can’t understand the discussion whether the new AI “sucks” or not. At least to me the game feels now significantly different, and to a high degree significantly better. I’ve played a game over the last couple of days that was the most challenging and enjoyable game I’ve played with Civ IV so far.
I chose Augustus of Rome because his new traits really benefit my playing style. I’m more of a builder and quite addicted to wonders, but I do fight when I need to. Therefore Industrious and Imperialistic is quite a good combination. I played a large continents map on Prince level. To my west was Bismarck (at Deviant Minds commonly known as “the Bizstacker”™), to my south were Joao and Darius, and to the south east Shaka and Churchill. Quite crowded, but the continent was really big. On the other continent were Louis “the Wonderhog” ™, Pericles and Stalin. Quite a trigger-happy assembly to say the least, but I did find that out only later.
I got a really strong start, Rome was a production powerhouse early on. I founded Hinduism and got some early wonders: Stonehenge, Statue of Zeus, Mausoleum of Mausollos, Great Library. I set up an attack on Bismarck when Joao tried to catch me at unawares – he declared on me quite surprisingly. Still I was lucky that I had a good road network and so could shuffle my troops quickly to the South. I captured Lisbon, his capital, but had to stop the war then – Shaka had declared on me also and came with some decent stacks. It was then in the 16th century when I redeclared and finished Joao off. Then I turned my eyes to Darius. He was teching at a great pace (at that time he had researched up to Communism already), but had neglected the military techs entirely. So it was Rifles vs. Longbows. I quickly captured Persepolis and Pasargade, which was home to the Confucian and Taoist shrine – a very rich and valuable city in a great spot. However I could not long enjoy the new lands – Darius made a very clever move and vassalized to Shaka. Otherwise I would have wiped him out with ease, but now I had to deal with the crazy Zuluman. Shaka is known for throwing around huge stacks, but I still had superior units and a sizeable tech lead on him. However superior units can’t cope with massive numbers. I quickly lost Persepolis despite having 8 full health Rifles in there.
And then came the most challenging moment of all my Civ IV gaming: the Bizstacker™ declared on me too ! He played like any human would have: Seeing that I had a hard time with Shaka (who was the most powerful Civ at that time by far) he seized his chance and attacked. Impressive ! Now it was actually the first time ever that I had to switch to Nationalism and draft Rifles to hold my own. It was pure slaughter, but in the end I managed to hold my ground and make peace. I had survived, but at a great prize. My large cities were now diminished and unhappy, and that hurt my research really hard. The other Civs on the other continent didn’t fight a single war because they shared the Buddhist faith and were all friendly with each other. The built a huge tech trust and were now way ahead of poor me.
Payback time then came with Infantry and Cannon. I declared on the Bizstacker™ in the beginning 20th century and asked Shaka for help. Bismarck then stood no chance at all. Shaka took Munich with the most huge SoD I’ve ever seen so far. After peace was negotiated I culture bombed Berlin and Stuttgart which were near to Munich so that my culture surrounded Munich entirely – his army had to stay indoors. I counted no less than 20 Rifles, 36 Grenadiers, 15 Curassiers, 13 Trebuchets – all in all more than 70 units ! However Shaka had to pay a prize for that power, and that was pathetic research. By the time I had Tanks he had some turns to go yet before he hit Assembly Line and thus Infantry. I then attacked Munich with 20 Tanks and some Infantry (actually one turn before he had researched Assembly Line, thanks Espionage !) and killed off more than 40 units on the first turn. 2 turns later his army was no more. The war against him was then a walk in the ballpark, I easily shattered Darius’ remaining cities and the northern lands of Shaka.
Seeing that Louis was way ahead of me (he built ALL the modern wonders !) I thought that I would lose surely to him via space race. So I decided that a Permanent Alliance would be my only chance of winning this. I invited Louis to the war and switched to Hereditary Rule, Louis favorite civic. I got him up to +12, but when I dialed him up after the appropriate number of war turns, he denied the Alliance, saying he did fine on his own. Again impressive ! If he would have joined me we would have won the game immediately, but the AI is now actually trying to win the game on its own. And still he was 7 or 8 significant techs up and already building spaceship parts…
I then changed my game plan once more. My continent was so huge that it was sufficient for Domination – if I could get all the land before Louis launched I’d win. Of course this meant clearing Shaka and Churchill. But Shaka was a walk in the ballpark, wasn’t it ? Not wholly so – to my dismay he vassalized – to Louis ! This meant fighting an opponent as powerful as me but with advanced units – Louis had Jet Fighters, Modern Armour and Mech Inf already. With a desperate charge the war horns sounded again. Mech Inf pretty much saved my day then because I could churn out 15 XP Medic I Mech Infs of Rome (I had spawned 8 or 9 Great Generals during the game and settled some of them at Rome, in the end Rome was capable of producing over 400 hammers a turn and get out 17 XP Medic I units per turn) every single turn. Once Composites came in I upgraded all my elite tanks to MA, which made it significantly easier. I captured the last city in 2001 and then made peace with Louis. I hit Domination in 2006. What a game !
Thanks to Firaxis and Blake for the incredible job they’ve done. This game truly is Civ as it meant to be. Of course I’m only a Prince level player – and weaker players of course are easier to please. But it is good to see that the AI no longer can run big armies and tech like hell at the same time, and that it is no longer capable of the instant upgrade of obsolete units. The game feels more challenging than ever, with such a strong start I’d stomped over the Warlords AI with relative ease.
Thanks for the joy I had with that game over the last couple of days !
Imhotep
I chose Augustus of Rome because his new traits really benefit my playing style. I’m more of a builder and quite addicted to wonders, but I do fight when I need to. Therefore Industrious and Imperialistic is quite a good combination. I played a large continents map on Prince level. To my west was Bismarck (at Deviant Minds commonly known as “the Bizstacker”™), to my south were Joao and Darius, and to the south east Shaka and Churchill. Quite crowded, but the continent was really big. On the other continent were Louis “the Wonderhog” ™, Pericles and Stalin. Quite a trigger-happy assembly to say the least, but I did find that out only later.
I got a really strong start, Rome was a production powerhouse early on. I founded Hinduism and got some early wonders: Stonehenge, Statue of Zeus, Mausoleum of Mausollos, Great Library. I set up an attack on Bismarck when Joao tried to catch me at unawares – he declared on me quite surprisingly. Still I was lucky that I had a good road network and so could shuffle my troops quickly to the South. I captured Lisbon, his capital, but had to stop the war then – Shaka had declared on me also and came with some decent stacks. It was then in the 16th century when I redeclared and finished Joao off. Then I turned my eyes to Darius. He was teching at a great pace (at that time he had researched up to Communism already), but had neglected the military techs entirely. So it was Rifles vs. Longbows. I quickly captured Persepolis and Pasargade, which was home to the Confucian and Taoist shrine – a very rich and valuable city in a great spot. However I could not long enjoy the new lands – Darius made a very clever move and vassalized to Shaka. Otherwise I would have wiped him out with ease, but now I had to deal with the crazy Zuluman. Shaka is known for throwing around huge stacks, but I still had superior units and a sizeable tech lead on him. However superior units can’t cope with massive numbers. I quickly lost Persepolis despite having 8 full health Rifles in there.
And then came the most challenging moment of all my Civ IV gaming: the Bizstacker™ declared on me too ! He played like any human would have: Seeing that I had a hard time with Shaka (who was the most powerful Civ at that time by far) he seized his chance and attacked. Impressive ! Now it was actually the first time ever that I had to switch to Nationalism and draft Rifles to hold my own. It was pure slaughter, but in the end I managed to hold my ground and make peace. I had survived, but at a great prize. My large cities were now diminished and unhappy, and that hurt my research really hard. The other Civs on the other continent didn’t fight a single war because they shared the Buddhist faith and were all friendly with each other. The built a huge tech trust and were now way ahead of poor me.
Payback time then came with Infantry and Cannon. I declared on the Bizstacker™ in the beginning 20th century and asked Shaka for help. Bismarck then stood no chance at all. Shaka took Munich with the most huge SoD I’ve ever seen so far. After peace was negotiated I culture bombed Berlin and Stuttgart which were near to Munich so that my culture surrounded Munich entirely – his army had to stay indoors. I counted no less than 20 Rifles, 36 Grenadiers, 15 Curassiers, 13 Trebuchets – all in all more than 70 units ! However Shaka had to pay a prize for that power, and that was pathetic research. By the time I had Tanks he had some turns to go yet before he hit Assembly Line and thus Infantry. I then attacked Munich with 20 Tanks and some Infantry (actually one turn before he had researched Assembly Line, thanks Espionage !) and killed off more than 40 units on the first turn. 2 turns later his army was no more. The war against him was then a walk in the ballpark, I easily shattered Darius’ remaining cities and the northern lands of Shaka.
Seeing that Louis was way ahead of me (he built ALL the modern wonders !) I thought that I would lose surely to him via space race. So I decided that a Permanent Alliance would be my only chance of winning this. I invited Louis to the war and switched to Hereditary Rule, Louis favorite civic. I got him up to +12, but when I dialed him up after the appropriate number of war turns, he denied the Alliance, saying he did fine on his own. Again impressive ! If he would have joined me we would have won the game immediately, but the AI is now actually trying to win the game on its own. And still he was 7 or 8 significant techs up and already building spaceship parts…
I then changed my game plan once more. My continent was so huge that it was sufficient for Domination – if I could get all the land before Louis launched I’d win. Of course this meant clearing Shaka and Churchill. But Shaka was a walk in the ballpark, wasn’t it ? Not wholly so – to my dismay he vassalized – to Louis ! This meant fighting an opponent as powerful as me but with advanced units – Louis had Jet Fighters, Modern Armour and Mech Inf already. With a desperate charge the war horns sounded again. Mech Inf pretty much saved my day then because I could churn out 15 XP Medic I Mech Infs of Rome (I had spawned 8 or 9 Great Generals during the game and settled some of them at Rome, in the end Rome was capable of producing over 400 hammers a turn and get out 17 XP Medic I units per turn) every single turn. Once Composites came in I upgraded all my elite tanks to MA, which made it significantly easier. I captured the last city in 2001 and then made peace with Louis. I hit Domination in 2006. What a game !
Thanks to Firaxis and Blake for the incredible job they’ve done. This game truly is Civ as it meant to be. Of course I’m only a Prince level player – and weaker players of course are easier to please. But it is good to see that the AI no longer can run big armies and tech like hell at the same time, and that it is no longer capable of the instant upgrade of obsolete units. The game feels more challenging than ever, with such a strong start I’d stomped over the Warlords AI with relative ease.
Thanks for the joy I had with that game over the last couple of days !
Imhotep
eric_
Emperor
Nice story Imhotep - gives me hope that all is not lost in my current game!
Seeing these kind of comments from players who are better than me really is puzzling. I've found BTS to be easier, if anything. Is it possible people are employing the wrong strategies that used to work on Warlords higher levels but somehow don't work on lower levels? that really makes no sense, but neither do some of these comments. I used to struggle on Noble/Prince but with BTS I am just dominating in my first few games. The tech pace is the reason. Also, the AI might bring large stacks now, but they just sit there! Are people actually getting attacked by these stacks or just assuming they will and playing defense? I've had large stacks march up to my cities then just sit outside. They don't even pillage.
I also wonder if some people are investing too much in espionage... if you neglect it on the slider, you can dominate techs and just run over everyone. yes, you might get harrassed a bit by enemy spies and you can't see what everyone is researching at first (although eventually enough courthouses will even allow this) but these are just not enough of a deterrant to overcome out-teching the AIs. they need to somehow balance this better if espionage is supposed to be more critical. it's a fun option but you can absolutely ignore it and win easily.
vilemerchant
Prince
This happens all the time and has turned several of my games into a farce. Other times you invade an AI and they don't even move units to the front or do anything really. You just take their poorly defended cities one by one and your stack never even gets attacked. Game is pretty borked right now - patch needed!
Entrinzikyl
Chieftain
I've come very close several times to losing to the AI culturally. I was going for a space-race victory and couldn't figure out how Mansa had a stronger economy than me but was going to take 815 turns until plastics. Then two cities hit legendary culture and I only had 5 turns to send an attack force to his continent to raze the third city. Once this happened, I discovered that Catherine would also win culturally before me. I went to raze her third city, but she destroyed my initial attack force. I was impressed, but I had more time left, so I sent another successfully.
Also, after each war, I used my U.N. secretary powers to force a quick end to the war. This was all on prince, small, 3 hemispheres.
Also, after each war, I used my U.N. secretary powers to force a quick end to the war. This was all on prince, small, 3 hemispheres.
eric_
Emperor
They definitely attack me...in that game I described, Justinian rolled up with a HUGE stack of cats, HAs, and a couple macemen (prolly all he had time to make before I retook his copper city). He bombarded me to zero, attacked with all his cats, and then sent in his HAs and maces.
IronCrown
Black Foe of the World
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
- Messages
- 674
Did he have overwhelming force in that particular battle? I mean, more units and better ones in his stack than your city defenders? That would nurture my speculation that the AI works if it is clearly superior but fails if the target has approximately equal strength.
eric_
Emperor
No. He did have a few more units (~8 cats, ~12 horse archers, and a maceman) but I had better ones. I had a knight, ~6 maces, ~2 pikes, 3 cats, 2 longbows, a spearman, and an axeman. It was pretty even, probably slightly in my favor.
The AI can attack even with no chance at all of taking the city. In my current game Victoria keep building up a force and attacking one of my cities. With about half as many units as I have in the city. She's killed one unit. I've problably killed a hundred in a dozen attacks. This war has cemented her position as the last/second last because all she does is train military units and then suicide them on my city. (I'm going to try to win without capturing any cities or for that matter enter the borders of anyone I'm at war with. She's really testing my patience given how easy it would be for me to take over all her cities, she's horribly behind in tech now...)
eric_
Emperor
Oh, it was a catastrophic failure (lost the whole stack in two turns, and then another city a couple of turns after that), but a logical effort, nonetheless, and a good strategic move if it had succeeded.
[edit]My sense is that you see its effort against me as a good sign that the AI is improved...is that right? I certainly took it that way...a calculated risk that was unlikely to succeed, but with huge rewards if it did.
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