[BTS] Crit my Game : Learning The Hard way on Diety

[manaballs]

Reroll a better start IMO.

 

[MegaLurker]

Oracle is highly overrated on Deity and on a start like this where you need to rush out your first settlers just to secure 2 more cities it would be a very bad move.

Oracle HBR for an HA rush only to not get horses? That'll pretty much cost you the game. Oracle HBR on the way to an elepult rush with only 2 cities? Good luck.

 

[Izuul]

Yeah on Deity you generally need to complete the Oracle by ~1800 BC or so to have a good shot at it, and that requires a lot of early sacrifices.

 

[MegaLurker]

Even 1800 only gives you maybe a 50% chance if there's a Huayna Capac or Isabella or Justinian or Pacal or anybody who loves to go for it early.

It only makes sense to go for Oracle early if you have lots of hammers but not much early commerce and no pressure to block land. But the Oracle pays off best if you can oracle something expensive (requiring you to have high early commerce anyway, which reduces your need for the free beakers) and trade it around effectively (usually meaning numerous nearby AIs, which means you need to concentrate on blocking land).

It's a bit of a conundrum, with the ideal conditions for getting it being also the conditions in which you get the least out of it. You have nothing to lose by ignoring it, a lot to lose by going for it and missing out. Playing safe for the highest probability of winning (rather than taking big gambles for a chance at a much earlier date) would mean, for me, never building the Oracle on Deity.

 

[Fippy]

Oracle HBR for an HA rush only to not get horses? That'll pretty much cost you the game. Oracle HBR on the way to an elepult rush with only 2 cities? Good luck.

Not only that, but also the beaker gains if we consider you need at least Medi + PH are so small for HBR..that pushing back better techs + builds gets so very questionable.

There's 1 situation where i will always consider trying it thou, when i see marble and already have Myst. Not cos marble makes building it quicker (often that's not true), but Poly + Aest Oracle gives nice options if the map allows.
And i know that teching Poly will be useful later.

Another but probably rarer situation would be if the map looks really bad for commerce, and i again have Myst..then you sometimes can avoid tech holes.
I find it's mostly over rated on maps where you already have commerce, and could quick start with BW, Pottery & writing and so on instead.
Or ofc if the 2 big wonders are an option instead (GLH, Pyras).

 

[georgjorge]

It only makes sense to go for Oracle early if you have lots of hammers but not much early commerce and no pressure to block land. But the Oracle pays off best if you can oracle something expensive (requiring you to have high early commerce anyway, which reduces your need for the free beakers) and trade it around effectively (usually meaning numerous nearby AIs, which means you need to concentrate on blocking land).

There are enough situations where it's a good play though. As you said, no need for blocking off land (either because you can easily block everything with your second city or simply because the land is so bad) is probably the most important condition. If you don't need to settle third and fourth city so early, and if Pottery doesn't work well with your capital, then putting those hammers and commerce into Oracle - even if it's just Monarchy or Metal Casting - can give you a huge push forwards.

I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion of the Oracle (though the original poster seems to have lost interest anyhow), and I don't think it's a good play here, but in some situations on Deity it's still the right (sometimes the only positive) option.

 

[MegaLurker]

Fippy's Aesthetic play with guaranteed marble can be very strong. So can CoL, or MC, or even Monarchy in the right circumstances. But I think moving up to Deity from Immortal, or up to Immortal from Emperor, people tend to fall into the trap of considering the Oracle to be an easy slingshot. The other trap being that you think with marble in your capital that Oracle is a good idea because you can go masonry and get the hammer discount (which, as Fippy also pointed out, is usually slower than ignoring masonry).

It's very specific conditions that make the Oracle a worthwhile gamble on Deity. And lets be honest, it's always a gamble. I've seen it go in the 2800s. Many times pre-2500. Very often between 1800-2000.

 

[mambo4]

Turn 42
choice: abandoned HBR at turn 41 infvaor of writing
because: build library,make scientists, generate great scientist, bulb things

choice:switched gold town production to warrior
because: growth to get second gold
turn 46
Verify Wang Kong has horses,
Wang Kong asks for open borders I say yes

Q:Always choosing Open borders seems common in high level play: is this to help forestall declarations of war?

Turn 46:
Napoleon offers Archey for AH, I accept

Turn 50:
Finished farming wheat for gold town, moved workler to gold to mine
Writing discovered, switch to Math (aiming for construction)
open borders with everyone
Settle 3 completed, switched to Archer

Q: with both cities cranking otu archers, am I delaying my libraries too long?

 

[georgjorge]

Good to see some progress!

I don't know why you're building Archers - the AI are so close to you that no Barbarians will appear (maybe one Archer but Warriors in cities can handle that), so you don't really need units now other than for happiness in the cities, and you have that already. Those Archers definitely should have been Libraries or Workers.

If you're planning to bulb Mathematics you should research Horseback Riding now instead, though with Libraries delayed for Archers you might actually be faster researching both without bulbing now. Not sure.

Trading Archery for Animal Husbandry wasn't really necessary - you don't need Archery at all on this map. You probably could have traded Animal Husbandry for something else, like Mysticism to get a Monument for that second gold, and I generally avoid trading for small useless techs because it means that AI will trade less techs with you later on.

Open Borders are usually accepted because of the diplomatic bonus (+1 and eventually +2), the opportunity to scout out the military of the AI, and trade routes. The only reason not to have Open Borders is if the AI is worst enemy of someone else that you don't want to upset. Also, don't wait for the AI to come to you for these deals - if you have Writing and can have Open Borders, think a bit about who you want to have it with, and then ask each of these AI for it. For example, open borders with Shaka, and put down a road to his city in the near future so your research will be faster.

You probably can see now why another Worker would have been better than the second Settler - you have enough time to settle the Elephant city, while the Worker would have a lot to do right now (roads between your cities, between Shaka and you, cottages in the capital).

Oh, and move the Warrior not in a city along the coast to see if there's Seafood around - for a later city when you can trade for Fishing.

 

[mambo4]

Good to see some progress!

I don't know why you're building Archers ...Trading Archery for Animal Husbandry wasn't really necessary - you don't need Archery at all on this map... avoid trading for small useless techs because it means that AI will trade less techs with you later on.

I guess the uselessness of archery was lost on me. is it because deity requires a focus on offensive tech?

For example, open borders with Shaka, and put down a road to his city in the near future so your research will be faster.

is a road always required for trade? doesn't my river connect us?
where can I look to identify what commerce is coming from what routes in my city?

 

[nate45]

is a road always required for trade? doesn't my river connect us?

you need sailing for foreign trade routes along rivers, so no. Check your ciites, if you don't see his cities in the trade window then you're not trading with him, but he might be trading with you if he has sailing! (in this case, open borders is bad, cause now you're just helping shaka's commerce while doing nothing for yourself. )

 

[georgjorge]

I guess the uselessness of archery was lost on me. is it because deity requires a focus on offensive tech?

is a road always required for trade? doesn't my river connect us?
where can I look to identify what commerce is coming from what routes in my city?

On Deity, every tech counts. What does Archery give you? You don't need Archers here since there are no Barbarians, and it doesn't lead to another tech. There's no reason to take it. So take another tech you can use (Mysticism or something else) instead.

To clarify what Nate said, rivers connect only your own empire if you don't have Sailing. So you can make a road from a river inside your empire to Shaka's city and you'll get trade routes. Or you tech Sailing, but that's another thing you don't need here (and will actively regret if you bulb to Trebs).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Stop dotmaping on deity You can never be all that sure which sides you get in the end and it will discourage you, if you dotmap all your nice spots by 3000 BC and they will be taken by 1800 BC... Dotmaping is for learning the very basics imo.

That said, I like pig city 1E considerably more...gets pig in 1st ring, doesn't miss anything we don't see, and gives trade route instantly on founding due to river + borders.

Your point is well taken, however .