[BTS] Prince shadow game

[jnebbe]

Played this last night and recorded my thought process, was kinda a meme game and I planned pretty poorly, but there's probably some other stuff I could learn from this

Attaching a save of turn 1, 82, and 142

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Prince, continents, standard time, large, no huts, random events, or espionage, random civ -> zara

t0
https://gyazo.com/00c58da33e1015ee3954e1dcd88871b2?token=f546f4a74a4a47a87c809508556e3c6c
moved my scout
https://gyazo.com/72a04db3c368958ef200407ab3d279f0
founded capital, researching animal husbandry
https://gyazo.com/14ce1eef318dd5fac2893a8a4ddc7cf9
My first thought is going for oracle since I start with mining, and capital and creative means getting to that marble won't be a problem
I think the best way to do this is to get bronze working and then agriculture, going to chop forests for settlers while I'm researching up to priesthood, not sure if I'll get slavery since I want my capital to be a high pop when I start oracle
Prob going to choose metal casting
Thats the plan

t7
https://gyazo.com/3838f10f54c80ec2d69ed9421474a957
jungle to the north, going to ignore that and start exploring east

t13
https://gyazo.com/215be852a813c2418fd29140239aee18
meet darius, animal husbandry finished and starting bronze working, worker finishes in 2 turns
Conveniently, there's some horses in my borders

t15
https://gyazo.com/2ac8ffcd8385064f9e55b26fc02369cb
worker finished, sending him to pigs since I think growing my city faster is more important than getting hammers from cows since Im just gonna be making warriors atm

t20
https://gyazo.com/ed9e3c36c09a60cee5701297f599e8e8
pigs pasture done, sending worker to cows now

t21
https://gyazo.com/0807d0c0a52970731f2b65b8c5fdfada
meet charlemange right next to me

t23
https://gyazo.com/731453932a16d3c782fd65f6b3dcd15a
warrior just finished, sending him south east through that blackmap and hopefully worker steal

t24
https://gyazo.com/a6333661c1cfc4a15f7d13571d10751f
theres a pesky lion on the right so sending my scout north
cow pasture just finished, sent worker to a forested hill. I forgot I can't chop yet so I'm gonna move to a hill next turn, cows + pigs + a mine will make a new settler fast even without chopping

t26
https://gyazo.com/16b0585c2f4c83d1bd56fe08ff29ca40
Ok idk what to do here
I can't chop for 3 more turns
settler takes 9 turns, worker 5, warrior 3
I could start a settler now, but I think it would still take like 8 turns if I started chopping right when I get bronze working
I'm gonna build 2 warriors, grow to 4 pop, then start a settler and chop it
worker is starting a mine on plains hill

t29
https://gyazo.com/8432480318cbd14bc8de7f9c69b2bfd4
look at these flood plains its beautiful
bronze working finished and im starting mysticism
sending new warriors south east
new warrior and city grows to 4 pop in 2 turns, going to then start a settler and chopit and I think I'm gonna settle 2 tiles south of the copper

t31
fortified my new warrior so my capital isn't unhappy, settler will be finished in 7 turns and I just started chopping

t33
https://gyazo.com/b089b53378e627cf751b5de285fdcf60
settler chopped, 4 turns now
gonna steal that worker, the mine it's making takes 5 turns so I'm good to go
lmao I didn't think this through all the way
mysticism completes in 2 turns, then I still have to get masonry and the wheel which is 19 turns, then meditation and priesthood which is another 21, and I should really get agriculture since my settler is finishing in a few turns
ok so I'm going to finish mysticism and then get masonry; I need to have a quarry on the marble so that I can start the oracle right when I get priesthood and it also lets me build walls in my 2nd city, idk if just building more warriors until I get pottery or something is a good idea
So I'll do mysticism -> masonry -> the wheel -> meditation -> priesthood -> agriculture -> build oracle -> metal casting

t35
https://gyazo.com/d4b7baffbac81f1966bb47e5f5c6ae72
my worker now

t36
https://gyazo.com/6bdf076a473515ddc3391d26d2ab3c30
LMAO YOU NEED POTTERY FOR METAL CASTING WHAT AM I DOING
ok Im changing plans completely there's no way I can get oracle before anyone else
I still really like that marble and Im thinking great library now
settler finishes in 1 turn, going to send him to that left marker, that will be my production city; it has lots of food, 3 hills, and copper. Im going to send my warrior that I worker stole with up there to make sure there are no barbs
going to get agriculture and then the wheel

t37
settler finishes, barracks finishes in 5 turns and I already have 4 warriors, 1 of which is in capital, so I may as well get barracks now

t40
https://gyazo.com/2705142bef8bd29610a3e4f755585f03
stonehedge takes 12 turns, im going to build a bit of that and then start a worker or something, it kinda does nothing for me since I'm creative so I'd rather get some fail gold instead

t42
https://gyazo.com/57a8dfb122bfd25ad6a516321eb992ca
made peace with charlemange
founded gondar, it's building a worker while working a flood plains, and with 2 workers chopping, it should take like 7 turns?

t47
https://gyazo.com/ebef5fc9d3e5e3cd5d4b8d566076a63f
I can finally farm lmao
3rd worker finished, sending him to capital since it's working 2 unimproved tiles

t49
https://gyazo.com/95bbe830d186ae2ca10f2a9502e25796
I was not even planning on this but my warrior was in the right place at the right time to steal another worker
stonehedge finishes in 1 turn, starting to work on a settler now
will probably get pottery next, I'll start mining that copper next turn, archery prob isn't necessary at least right now

t54
https://gyazo.com/f56e8ccadaa2412a216616eb3b31d860
ya boy can now build roads
charlamange is kinda wedged into this corner, might be an easy kill but I did see he had a settler already so maybe he'll expand north

t56
https://gyazo.com/d783d29dcc38caa5091357bb26e4cbc7
settler finished and someone just built stonehedge so im gonna get a bunch of fail gold, hopefully putting slider at 100% will speed up pottery a lot
im trying to impliment SE/hybrid economy, I read that a good gold city has a ton of food and a ton of merchants so the money merchant marker is perfect for that. It even has some hills which will make building the markets easier

t57
https://gyazo.com/03b15e21ab9deca2247e94dcfe54321b
charlemange's new city, gonna win the culture war 100%
slider is at 100% and cut off 2 turns of research, just making warriors at capital until I can make a granery

t60
met pacal

t62
https://gyazo.com/113baf4016df3a0bef3e3be500ac9219
settled 3rd city, I'm probably going to have trouble with culture battling charlemange, but I might actually be fine if I build a stele + being creative

t63
pottery finished, starting writing

t69
https://gyazo.com/9b94e11ce510cdbdbcdddddd2dd4b3fa
darius is fairly close to me

t72
https://gyazo.com/c55c464eca1eaf181af5dac648fc9af6
finished writing, plan is to get masonry then polytheism, then build parthenon and maybe temple of artemis, this gives me time to find a good spot for a science commerce city and give it a little time to grow before building great library
charlamange has 2 workers right at the edge of his borders, and only has 1 warrior defending. Im not usually the warmongerer type but he's making it quite easy, I think I'll try taking him out early

t75
https://gyazo.com/87919835d00c940f1dc9971b48638a96
2 workers stolen, that city will be mine next turn

t77
https://gyazo.com/120ce3343da6817af3a0fd5116392d9b
jk he got an archer in there
thats ok Ill just build a ton of axes with city raider and take him out

t79
https://gyazo.com/5f374898535386542019f048295bf9a3
made peace with charlamange, he got an axe there so Im gonna wait and build up my army first, i made him adpot tribalism overslavery so that will hold him back a bit

stopped writing here
I definitely think I need more cities but idk the correct timing to do that. I also prefer to make a few good cities with as many good tiles as possible rather than several cities with just a couple good tiles

 

[scheines]

Some misc thoughts, maybe I’ll do my own 100 turns later.

* I’d recommend the forum upload feature over an external one, so people don’t have to swap browser tabs to compare text to image.
* I’d have settled on the plains hill to the cities right. Extra hammer, and keeps all the food. Moving the scout here might’ve (in hindsight maybe) been better as it would’ve revealed the water. I’m not sure I’d have settled differently knowing that, but I hate losing capital tiles to water. You could move 1 SW from the city, but then you lose the river.
* For T26, I’d probably have started a settler. You can’t chop for 3 turns, but it would undoubtedly save you some turns on the tail end.
* Why are you down to 90% science with 1 city? Do you have unit / supply costs? IMO that might mean too many warriors? Worker stealing is great, but losing GPT for 1 worker is overkill imo. Or maybe this is because you have workers and settlers so far east of your capital?
* Similarly, building Stonehenge for fail gold when you have 1 city feels wrong. You should continue pumping out settlers and workers, or units. It’s ok to go 0 science for a few turns to get your cities out. Especially as Zara, who has the traits to settle flexibly and early for cheap.
* Gondar’s placement is overambitious. You can get away with it because of CRE and ORG, but any other traits and you’re going be hurting. I’d have settled closer to the copper, like copper and pig first ring.
* Horses and/or copper need to be connected sooner. You don’t need to be making warriors with these options. The city distance also hurts because it means more worker turns to connect cities.
* Lalibela is also too far. You’ve got the right idea to settle toward your opponent, but doing this is asking for trouble in maintenance costs. There is a nice hill with 2x pig and a corn that you have forgone for the FP. Also, you’re CRE, so a stele is a waste here. Charly isn’t going to beat that out early on. And if you’re planning to axe rush him anyways, he will be dead before it matters.

In terms of settling timelines, you ought to be able to settle faster than you did up through T79. Settling closer and with key resources in first ring will help. Yes, you’re creative but that’s still 5+ turns lost on those outer ring resources.

You could argue you are expanding slower because you’re axe rushing, and this would be fine. But if you’re doing that, I’d settler closer to the copper and commit to axes immediately and entirely, instead of failgolding Stonehenge or making steles, for example.

 

[jnebbe]

Some misc thoughts, maybe I’ll do my own 100 turns later.

* I’d recommend the forum upload feature over an external one, so people don’t have to swap browser tabs to compare text to image.
* I’d have settled on the plains hill to the cities right. Extra hammer, and keeps all the food. Moving the scout here might’ve (in hindsight maybe) been better as it would’ve revealed the water. I’m not sure I’d have settled differently knowing that, but I hate losing capital tiles to water. You could move 1 SW from the city, but then you lose the river.
* For T26, I’d probably have started a settler. You can’t chop for 3 turns, but it would undoubtedly save you some turns on the tail end.
* Why are you down to 90% science with 1 city? Do you have unit / supply costs? IMO that might mean too many warriors? Worker stealing is great, but losing GPT for 1 worker is overkill imo. Or maybe this is because you have workers and settlers so far east of your capital?
* Similarly, building Stonehenge for fail gold when you have 1 city feels wrong. You should continue pumping out settlers and workers, or units. It’s ok to go 0 science for a few turns to get your cities out. Especially as Zara, who has the traits to settle flexibly and early for cheap.
* Gondar’s placement is overambitious. You can get away with it because of CRE and ORG, but any other traits and you’re going be hurting. I’d have settled closer to the copper, like copper and pig first ring.
* Horses and/or copper need to be connected sooner. You don’t need to be making warriors with these options. The city distance also hurts because it means more worker turns to connect cities.
* Lalibela is also too far. You’ve got the right idea to settle toward your opponent, but doing this is asking for trouble in maintenance costs. There is a nice hill with 2x pig and a corn that you have forgone for the FP. Also, you’re CRE, so a stele is a waste here. Charly isn’t going to beat that out early on. And if you’re planning to axe rush him anyways, he will be dead before it matters.

In terms of settling timelines, you ought to be able to settle faster than you did up through T79. Settling closer and with key resources in first ring will help. Yes, you’re creative but that’s still 5+ turns lost on those outer ring resources.

You could argue you are expanding slower because you’re axe rushing, and this would be fine. But if you’re doing that, I’d settler closer to the copper and commit to axes immediately and entirely, instead of failgolding Stonehenge or making steles, for example.

Thanks for the comments

One thing I'm trying to start doing is specializing my cities more. Gondar was going to be my production city, it had a lot of irrigated grassland+floodplains while also having 3 hills for mines and copper, idk if you could recommend a different spot and why you would chose that
And for Lalibela I am trying a merchant economy where you just have tons of farms and merchants
As far as high unit costs, I was making a ton of warriors just because I ran out of buildings to build, likely because of my weird tech path/bad planning.
I'm still very unsure of how soon and how often I should expand, is there a general rule of thumb I should follow?

 

[sampsa]

I'd say city specialization is not very important (I play mostly deity). What you should pay attention to is trying to improve the best tiles and keep working them. 3 cities at T82 is not many and your cities are at -cap so growing them further isn't doing much good. The cure for this would be to get some settlers out.

I'm still very unsure of how soon and how often I should expand, is there a general rule of thumb I should follow?

My thumb of rule would be to expand to at least 6 cities that have a food resource as fast as you can.

 

[lymond]

Most image site have HTML that you can paste directly into your posts - ideally using spoiler tags so no page load issues. Look for BBCode.

I recommend not playing with "No Espionage". It throws off the Culture mechanic. At minimum you can just use Espionage passively by directing all points toward an individual leader - usually a good techer like a Mansa. Also, I recommend playing normal map sizes for now..it does you no favors.

A few notes looking at the most recent save:

1) sampsa is right...you mainly settle for food
2) Look to settle a more compact empire. Your cities are very spread out and you've left several strong local food resources completely alone.
3) In fact, don't be afraid to overlap cities and share tiles.
4) 5 cities is too few at this stage..you want to expand faster earlier ..one way or another.
5) Think of it this way....early game you are setting up a nice solid base of 6 cities or more in the BCs. You will tech better and establish a foundation to break out later with war.
6) Do not automate workers.it is about the worse thing you can do in this game early. Worker management is one of the most important aspects of gameplay in Civ IV.
7) Important: Get used to running 100% research or 0% research (100% tax), not at X% slider. Accumulate enough gold to fund the next tech. You will start doing this once you hit deficit research which will be when you settle your first city - other than your cap.
8) Very important: You are not in slavery which is the most powerful mechanic in the game
9) It appears that you are not chopping forests at all.

-I am interested in your logic on the wonders in Aksum.

Overall, right now you are not fairing well on Prince. You are way behind in tech and expansion, which is a problem based on several factors.

Really, if you want to learn you should start getting advice at Turn 0. Shadow games really not about posting a game at Turn 142. It's about getting advice and direction in small increments. I assure you if you do this that learning a few basic things here you will completely dominate on Prince level.

On a side note, I will post a link below to the BUG/BULL mod:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/download-bug-and-bat-here.274636/

Nice mod most use here on the forum that greatly improves the UI Install with SP option (Custom Assets) and you don't have to load a mod..and it will work for this game too.

 

[sampsa]

T82

Spoiler :

Settled 1E for the plains hill bonus, AH-BW-wheel-fish-pot-agri-writ-myst-mas-medi-ph-(monarchy). Settler built size 2, because we only have two good tiles. Capital had already popped borders for the eastern pig so could improve it for the 2nd city beforehand, which is always nice. Cities were founded T32, 45, 50, 56, 62. I could have chopped capital area a bit harder for faster expansion, but I guess that would be a decent timeline on this difficulty level. Try to have 6 spots with food-resources settled by T75 at least.

All cities have granaries, 3 libraries and the southernmost one will spread the religion. At monarchy the empire will flourish as then cities can grow. Need to smash the copper and build warriors for extra happiness (axes are too expensive). 8 workers, 7 warriors, 2 axes to deal with barb annoyance. Didn't really plan Oracle, just wanted monarchy asap. I can always just take feudalism, but it's not very useful I think, unless I want to vassal these weaklings.

 

[scheines]

Yep 6 cities in peaceful BCs is my target. More is better, as long as they're good cities. Some people here might even consider that sub-par on more forgiving difficulties.

You might be tempted to disable espionage because getting your cities poisoned and spaceship parts ruined is BS, but in due time you’ll acclimate to it lol. I can’t say I even use it much on emperor, but the occasional revolt or improvement sabotage can really turn the tides of a war.

RE: #7 on lymond’s post. As I understand it, the reason is that some rounding errors basically cost you beakers every turn you’re not at 0 or 100. This sounds small, but rolls up to a significant amount over hundreds of turns. Just in case you wanted to know the logic behind it!

 

[Harv]

On the binary 0% / 100% research rate - later in the game, I wonder if the difference is balanced by the number of bonus beakers you get at different levels of research. I also tend to forget about it at some point where I give up on micro.

 

[sampsa]

later in the game, I wonder if the difference is balanced by the number of bonus beakers you get at different levels of research.

What do you mean by this? What number of bonus beakers at different levels of research?

@jnebbe I played up to T100, just to show post-monarchy empire.

Spoiler :

Took feudalism, switch to HR+vassalage. Was surprised to actually get some techs via trade (alpha+IW). I have 24 warriors to keep my empire happy, but paying only 7pt thanks to vassalage (well, and this being prince). Started to produce cats already, will soon be done with warriors so I can re-connect copper and build some axes to take out Charlie. Everything would be much better with at least some -resources, so should have sent out a workboat ages ago to get sailing trade routes to Darius+Pacal, who seem to be surprisingly far.

Just trying to show here what is important: found a solid base empire asap, grow cities and work food resources + cottages. Other things are less important. You don't have to care much about what the AI are doing at this level, if you manage your empire right. Save attached for details.

 

[Harv]

The opening techs seem to apply a bonus if either one beaker or 10%, so if I invest 12, the beaker count goes up by 13.

If I have a prerequisite, like mining for BW, then it is about 25%, so from 12 to 15, but the return seems to diminish at higher numbers. If I have two prerequisites, then it is about 50%.

 

[krikav]

@Harv
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/hidden-research-bonuses.631078/

 

[krikav]

This I have printed and up on the pinboard as a quick reference while playing openings:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/hidden-research-bonuses.631078/#post-15096663

 

[Harv]

Thanks for the information. Hang on while I process this. My mind is blown.

Right now, I'm trying to figure out out an ‘optimal’ way to start with seafood and pig iron.

I don’t know if there is an application for saving up 60 beakers to research Fishing in one turn and have more left over.

 

[sampsa]

The opening techs seem to apply a bonus if either one beaker or 10%, so if I invest 12, the beaker count goes up by 13.

Yes, there is always one hidden added to the number you see in the top left.

If I have a prerequisite, like mining for BW, then it is about 25%, so from 12 to 15, but the return seems to diminish at higher numbers. If I have two prerequisites, then it is about 50%.

Pre-req bonus is 20%, two pre-reqs 40% and so on. The return does not diminish at higher numbers. Look at the linked chart for more info.

In very rare cases, you can beat 0/100-slider by running something in between for some turns, but it's not very important I'd say. Just go 0/100 and everything is much easier and efficient. It's also often very useful to be able to change your tech choice without having many beakers invested.

I don’t know if there is an application for saving up 60 beakers to research Fishing in one turn and have more left over.

I assume you mean if it matters if there is -overflow when you complete a tech? In general, no it doesn't matter. Modifiers are ripped from the overflow and then recounted with the new modifiers (depending on the next tech), thus you don't win or lose anything.

 

[krikav]

The only thing that this really changes, is that sometimes you can for example work a lake witch looks like it yields 2F2C, but due to these rounding errors that lake is in effect yielding 2F3C.
One has to be quite obsessive about early game micro to really pay much attention to these miniscule details. ^_^

The habit one should cultivate is that of saving up cash in the treasure until one has enough to complete a tech at 100%.
"Ok, now we have stockpiled enough, lets go writing!!"
That way, one can prior to commiting also keep the option of instead going sailing first, if circumstances change.

 

[Harv]

I tend to be very obsessive with micromanagement in the early game, even if I get big stuff wrong right away, but there comes a stage a hundred turns in or so where I get overwhelmed with it and give it up.