[BtS] Merged Mod

[Thinker19930602]

It's not confusing to me. Choppers are taking over the role of CAS bombers. The Gunship will of course be an improvement over the CAS bomber in-game. Also, you have to remember that the A-10 is really an uber-weapon, compared to other CAS aircraft.

Helicopters may seem like they are taking over the CAS role, but that is just because they are being used against insurgents without proper military equipment (Helicopter Gunships would be subordinate to CAS aircraft when being opposed by a modern military). Helicopters would have an increased vunerability to Triple-A and SAMs, and would lack the speed of dedicated CAS bombers; therefore making them a poor choice for open combat (they would be better in cites, though). The A-10 is not an "uber-weapon", it is just tougher (harder to shoot down) than other CAS aircraft; the payload is fairly comperable to other CAS planes like the Su-27 or the British Lightning. The only reason the A-10 seems this way is because we have seen it in action more often than other CAS aircraft. Besides, aren't helicopters regular units that move and not based aircraft anyway? You should still include the AC-130 and similar planes, they would make a great addition. What I am trying to say is that these different aidcraft represent different mean and abiliries to accomplishing one end, effective Close Air Support of ground forces; these different methods may cater to the different tastes of different players, so having players chose which approach they want to use is good.

 

[TheDS]

An F-15 is capable of taking on an entire wing of earlier generation aircraft (and winning). This has been done in actual combat. This is not a once in a while thing, but the typical result of such engagements.

An F-22 is capable of taking on an entire wing of F-15s (and winning). This has been done in mock-combats and training simulations.

You have your work cut out for you.

 

[Agent327]

Helicopters may seem like they are taking over the CAS role, but that is just because they are being used against insurgents without proper military equipment (Helicopter Gunships would be subordinate to CAS aircraft when being opposed by a modern military). Helicopters would have an increased vunerability to Triple-A and SAMs, and would lack the speed of dedicated CAS bombers; therefore making them a poor choice for open combat (they would be better in cites, though).

"Heliciopters" have been used with deadly effect in the Gulf War and Iraqi Freedom. (As to helicopter use in cities, this makes them practically as vulnerable as tanks; in urban warfare or at close range their state-of-the-art equipment will be severely hampered, not only by the presence of many non-combatants in such a situation.)

 

[Ninja2]

An F-15 is capable of taking on an entire wing of earlier generation aircraft (and winning). This has been done in actual combat. This is not a once in a while thing, but the typical result of such engagements.

An F-22 is capable of taking on an entire wing of F-15s (and winning). This has been done in mock-combats and training simulations.

You have your work cut out for you.

Yes, but remember that combat in Civ has never been about realism. There are tons of ways to design aerial combat, but realism clearly takes a back seat in all civ games. Spearmen vs. tanks, and sailing ships against battleships. So following the spirit of the game, once in a while a biplane will intercept and defeat a stealth bomber.

 

[trickofthehand]

I always thought helicopters units should have a penalty when attacking cities.

-I agree with ninja, it's unfortunately how the game works. A modern missile cruiser would annihiliate a battleship without ever giving the battleship a chance to retaliate yet... they still get seriously damaged or destroyed in civ.
For my own sake I like to pretend there's a 'trickle down' effect in civ as far as military technology. So even though your infantry is attacking longbowmen, maybe some of those longbowmen got their hands on a few rifles.

-On another point, I edited the xml file in merged mod so that jet bombers were still buildable and didn't upgrade to stealth bombers. I decreased stealth bomber's strength by 4 and made them 50% more expensive. What do you think about adopting this officially in Merged mod?

-As a former ground pounder for six years, I very much appreciate the capabilities of the A-10. It's an amazing plane, and usually the only thing in the air when sand storms whip up and force other planes and choppers to ground. You'll never forget the feeling in your gut when an A-10 makes a strafing run close to you.

 

[Wolfshanze]

-I agree with ninja, it's unfortunately how the game works. A modern missile cruiser would annihiliate a battleship without ever giving the battleship a chance to retaliate yet... they still get seriously damaged or destroyed in civ.

This is the beauty of the "naval age" system I put in-place in the Wolfshanze Mod (and of course is in the Merged Mod)... by default all ships have a 20% bonus against ships of previous ages... since the Battleship is a "Modern" age ship and the Missile Cruiser is a "Nuclear" age ship, it gets a 20% bonus against the battleship... these age bonuses can easily be changed to be different... if you think a missile cruiser should get a bigger bonus, you can change it to 30% or 50% or 100%... whatever you think appropriate, without changing the base combat value of the unit.

Of course, the point about a nuclear-age missile cruiser is in the name itself... the MISSILES... if you're using missiles, you should be easily able to take-out a battleship... a modern nuclear-age missile cruiser would still get it's pants blown out of the water in a gun-duel with a WWII battleship... it simply does not have the firepower nor the armor of a WWII battleship in a gun duel... so a ship to ship dual would/should result in a loss of the missile cruiser... however, if firing 40-strength missiles FIRST on the battleship, there should be no problem in destroying a WWII battleship with a missile cruiser.

 

[Thinker19930602]

"Heliciopters" have been used with deadly effect in the Gulf War and Iraqi Freedom. (As to helicopter use in cities, this makes them practically as vulnerable as tanks; in urban warfare or at close range their state-of-the-art equipment will be severely hampered, not only by the presence of many non-combatants in such a situation.)

Helicopters have shorter legs (operational range) and a reduced payload when compared to CAS aircraft.

 

[Agent327]

Obviously, but I was referring to helicopters being

a poor choice for open combat (they would be better in cites, though).

 

[Thinker19930602]

Obviously, but I was referring to helicopters being

Perhaps they would have a better shot in open combat than in cities, but they would not have the strengths of a CAS bomber, but they should not be an upgrade unit for CAS bombers; they should have a seperate class for helicopter gunships that operate like they do in a regular game of civ.

 

[trickofthehand]

Ofcourse the point of the missile cruiser is to have it soften up a target with missiles before you engage it, but unfortunately you can't do this when you defend against a battleship, hence it's still very broken.

Also its not worth building missiles in the first place, in one turn I can build an expendable missile or a combat unit. If you could build multiple missiles at once, then it would be extremely worth it. Is this even possible btw?

 

[KingArthur666]

I've wondered about that myself. It seems kind of a shame when you have a super city cranking out so much production it could build two of the units it is building in one turn with its production capacity. It would probably be far too difficult a thing to change though.

 

[Fr8monkey]

I am having a little trouble. I am patched to 3.17 and unzip .80 and WolfshanzeMod_284 but when I start a game, I have no interface... and control + I don't help. Any insight?

 

[Ninja2]

Hi Fr8monkey!

That's probably because version 0.80 is not yet updated to be compatible with Wolf's 2.84. I've done a lot of work on this mod lately, adding three new components and expanding the air unit progression a bit, and changing the whole aerial combat logic again. I need to do a bit of final tweaking and testing before I release it, so at the moment you have two choices: 1) Download Wolf's 2.83 if you haven't already, it's available at Filefront. 2) Wait a few more days!

 

[Wolfshanze]

Here's the link to Wolfshanze Mod v2.83

 

[Ninja2]

NEW RELEASE!!!

Yes, after many hours of work, 0.83 is out. This is quite a biggie with lots of new features, especially in the modern eras. I hope you'll like it!

 

[Thinker19930602]

Brilliant!!!

This sounds awsome, but do I have to have the newest version of Wolf's mod? Or can I just have a previous version?

 

[Ninja2]

I'm pretty sure 2.84 is necessary. You MIGHT get it to work, but lots of units will just be red blobs.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Congrats for keeping-up with the Wolfshanze Mod changes.

So did you keep up with the splitting of the Airport into Airbases and Airports, and the new "Trench Unit" class as well as the new urban warfare and infiltration promotions? Those were some of the new "key" changes/additions to the game that are non-model related in v2.84.

 

[Ninja2]

Thanks! Yes, they are all in. I have tried my best to balance the new air units with the new tech, and your new buildings. Trench units are also in, so are the new promotions.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Yeah, the Airport split was important in my mind... it always bugged me that I was able to airlift major troop deployments to the other side of the globe when my most advanced aircraft was canvas and wood biplanes!

I like the Trench Unit class too.