Buce01: The Slavemaster

[Phaedo]

Good to have you back Buce

You raise some good points and the lack of a back-up option is definitely the one that resonates most with me. I just wasn't thinking about not having rubber. As I look at our land, I think there is a good chance we won't have it. We have no marsh or jungle and precious few forests.

I still think a limited poke at Shaka would be useful to us. I don't think we will be done railing when the deal expires. We only have a skeleton route now and the outlying areas aren't railed at all -- and we do need them railed to get the farms up. That source that you suggested colonizing was the objective I was thinking of. I thought we could take it and then just hold the line while we cleared the West. Our 90 slaves really aren't enough IMO. There is so much improving to do and it will take quite a while with our current slave force -- of course RP will speed that up and I may not be adequately taking that into account.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not opposed to war per se, I just think that we need to have a well defined purpose for it.

IMO, limited territorial gain is not sufficient purpose and acquiring Coal is no longer a necessary goal - it is available to us for free.

I suggest that we wait until we get RP's and see what the situation is regarding rubber; gaining it would be a high priority war aim.

If we have it - and the concensus is still with war - then I suggest that the Silks to the SE (Cattaraugus) would be a suitable aim, which I believe would be attainable in the opening moves if we position our forces correctly:

Spoiler :

 

[Bucephalus]

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

 

[Phaedo]

Without knowing if we have rubber or not, it's hard to really make a definite plan. We will know in about 6 turns so at that point I think it's best to pause for discussion. In the meantime, I think continuing to prepare for war is advisable. I think we have enough Cav but if we are forced into war with Shaka we may want a few more. I'd think rifle builds are the best bet for most cities and the corrupt towns can stay on cannon and settlers.

The coal deal is set to expire soon. and as such I think I should not have peeled off workers to re-improve land. Getting the complete rail network down as quickly as possible should have been the priority. We will still definitely need more coal when our deal expires. I'm not overly familiar with colonies. Will we still get the resource even though all the roads that connect it an us are through Zulu land? If so, that seems like the quickest fix to our problems. 89 slaves is an annoying number for slave groups but not the end of the world with the improved efficiency that comes with RP.

 

[Bucephalus]

Without knowing if we have rubber or not, it's hard to really make a definite plan. We will know in about 6 turns so at that point I think it's best to pause for discussion. In the meantime, I think continuing to prepare for war is advisable. I think we have enough Cav but if we are forced into war with Shaka we may want a few more. I'd think rifle builds are the best bet for most cities and the corrupt towns can stay on cannon and settlers.

IIRC, it's only three turns to RP's; I agree, playing that far then pausing for analysis is best.

The coal deal is set to expire soon. and as such I think I should not have peeled off workers to re-improve land. Getting the complete rail network down as quickly as possible should have been the priority. We will still definitely need more coal when our deal expires. I'm not overly familiar with colonies. Will we still get the resource even though all the roads that connect it an us are through Zulu land? If so, that seems like the quickest fix to our problems. 89 slaves is an annoying number for slave groups but not the end of the world with the improved efficiency that comes with RP.

Yeah, RP's turns our slaves in to regular Workers so I think we'll be fine.

Our connection to a Coal colony will be through Zulu roads, correct, as long as we are at peace.

 

[CivActuary]

How long though, until the Zulu decide to expand the cultural boundaries of Tyrana, thus negating our proposed colony?

Let's see what happens when we get RP.

 

[Bucephalus]

How long though, until the Zulu decide to expand the cultural boundaries of Tyrana, thus negating our proposed colony?

I'm guessing long enough; our workers increased speed will have a big effect, and Coal is abundant enough for us to buy it if needed.

Let's see what happens when we get RP.

Agreed. Who's up?

 

[Phaedo]

The shear size of Shaka worries me as well. His economy isn't any great shakes and his research is surprising slow given his size. My sense is that he has a HUGE army waiting to be used. However I think that we could defend against his first couple waves without any real losses. To be honest, I'd be happy if we just broke his army and didn't get any land; it's just that after we broke his army we could grab some land and get a few more slaves as well.

I tend to agree with CivA that the colony wouldn't last that long but it would give us a chance to continue railing for free for a few turns. Is losing a colony similar to losing a city for WW? I like Buce's spice target and I foresee us needing coal for probably at least another 15 turns.

I guess I am disposed to war. I would not like to see us try to take Shaka out in any way. I very limited conflict is the only one that I would feel comfortable with. I realize that we have a nice tech lead -- and are set up for a greater one -- so that gives us great military possibilities in the future. I guess I just see it as a matter of time management. We don't have a lot of builds that we need now but will have more later. As we get more tech, we will have builds that we want. With more farms, we could use corrupt towns fro rushing while saving our producers for the big builds we want.

So what am I missing? Could you elaborate on why you don't feel the timing is right for a limited conflict Buce? I understand the speed factor of invading a railed civ with arty but I don't see why WW would necessarily kick in. If just defend for a bit and wait for the right opportunity to invade, WW shouldn't really kick in at all would it? It should only really be a factor when our troops move into enemy territory. Our cannon would be for defense, those western towns of his wouldn't put up that much of a fight at the moment and once we took his big hit we could have a successful limited invasion.

 

[Phaedo]

I just played so I think you are Buce

 

[Bucephalus]

The shear size of Shaka worries me as well. His economy isn't any great shakes and his research is surprising slow given his size. My sense is that he has a HUGE army waiting to be used. However I think that we could defend against his first couple waves without any real losses. To be honest, I'd be happy if we just broke his army and didn't get any land; it's just that after we broke his army we could grab some land and get a few more slaves as well.

Sure, Shaka will have a big army - he has a huge empire, and DG is very generous with free unit support.

I tend to agree with CivA that the colony wouldn't last that long but it would give us a chance to continue railing for free for a few turns. Is losing a colony similar to losing a city for WW? I like Buce's spice target and I foresee us needing coal for probably at least another 15 turns.

The Coal in question is next to a captured, totally corrupt town; it may be that culture will never be built there, certainly not quickly.

I guess I am disposed to war. I would not like to see us try to take Shaka out in any way. I very limited conflict is the only one that I would feel comfortable with. I realize that we have a nice tech lead -- and are set up for a greater one -- so that gives us great military possibilities in the future. I guess I just see it as a matter of time management. We don't have a lot of builds that we need now but will have more later. As we get more tech, we will have builds that we want. With more farms, we could use corrupt towns fro rushing while saving our producers for the big builds we want.

As far as I can see, the only city builds to come for a long time will be Stock Ex's, and with RR's going down, and factories and Hoover's going up, we will finish them in three or four turns.

So what am I missing? Could you elaborate on why you don't feel the timing is right for a limited conflict Buce? I understand the speed factor of invading a railed civ with arty but I don't see why WW would necessarily kick in. If just defend for a bit and wait for the right opportunity to invade, WW shouldn't really kick in at all would it? It should only really be a factor when our troops move into enemy territory. Our cannon would be for defense, those western towns of his wouldn't put up that much of a fight at the moment and once we took his big hit we could have a successful limited invasion.

A limited war would gain little more than territory, maybe a few Slaves; sure, we could annhilate his army but with his core untouched - and the DG production bonus - he'd have it back within maybe twenty turns of peace. So we'd have it to do all over again later.

As things stand, the only point of attacking Shaka would be if we intended to put him out of the game, something which could be achieved more efficiently once Shaka is RR'd, and we have a nice stack of Arty.

However, we have Rubber, Oil, Aluminium and Uranium still to come; should we lack any of them - and Shaka has them - we would then have an imperitive to go to war. But right now I really don't see the point.

I guess to encapsulate what I'm saying is this: our aim is to get to Space before anyone else, something that we are well on our way to achieving. Will a limited war for nothing but second rate territory help us to get there any quicker? I don't think it will, and with the possibility of it escalating to a World War, it may well actually hinder us in our objectives.

 

[Elephantium]

I really *want* to take Shaka down a few notches, but you make some great points in favor of maintaining peace for the time being, Buce. We're not in a position to crush him just yet, we're not desperate to get any resources from him yet, so fighting a war, fun as it may be, doesn't really advance our interests right now.

I'll second (or is it third?) the motion to re-evaluate war after we learn RP.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, I'll run with it to RP's then stop for discussion.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, we have Rubber.

Our Coal deal just expired and Ottomans want silly money to renegotiate; and we have a continuing need for Coal.

I guess we need to decide whether to take it by force from Shaka, or remain peaceful (for now), and colonize.

I think I've made my views clear, and they haven't changed, but of course I'll go with a majority call.

What's it to be?

 

[Elephantium]

I think we should colonize the coal near Tyrana. Maybe even send down a settler, 2-3 artillery, and 6-10 Infantry to prevent a culture expansion from taking our Coal.

Such a force would be able to hold off any early attacks by Shaka when we go to war, unless he decided to gun exclusively for Coal-town. What does everyone else think? Would a coal town be too risky once war starts?

 

[Phaedo]

I agree that step one is to colonize the coal. I see what you're thinking Tusker about the town but if there is war, it would be next to impossible to reinforce and a small force would eventually be overrun possibly buying us some time but it would invite quick WW. If the colony gets overrun and we still need coal, we will be in a better position for war at that time and we can make the call. Coal might be cheap at that time taking away the necessity for war.

As for the general war issue, I do feel that we will need to crack Shaka. The only issue is timing. As we have rubber, we can get the artillery force we need to completely destroy his first wave so perhaps an immediate war isn't the best call. So I see the possible triggers for war as:

• when we have the force in place to take Shaka's profitable land in a relatively short amount of time;
• when Shaka has his empire railed;
• when we have our territory fully improved.

These may work in combination with each other but if we are fully improved before Shaka is railed, we would have the slaves to make up for his lack of rails and I wouldn't see a reason to wait if we have the force to invade.

 

[CivActuary]

As an aggressive nation with a huge army sitting to our South, and no one else on the continent for him to focus his eyes on, I still consider Shaka to be a very large threat. It's going to come to war with him before we launch for space.

When should that war be? When it is most advantageous for us, of course. He has sneak attacked us before, so I wanted the war on our terms this time. I had initially thought that would be when we learned RP (and he had not), but I am not so sure. There have been some good points made about waiting, so let's colonize the coal and finish getting our territory improved.

 

[Phaedo]

When I proposed the war with RP, I didn't consider the possibility of not having rubber. Now that we have it, it would seem that we could wage a far more effective war with a hefty stack of arty. Does he have rubber? I assume he does with all the jungle, swamp and forest he has. That being said, our preparations for war were on the right track and I agree that Shaka will have to be dealt with.

More specialist farms won't hurt the research either so it plays into our goals in two ways. Heck, it might even be better to leave him the western lands so we can trade with him and just take over all his useful land.

 

[Bucephalus]

The way I see it is that - having reached RP's - we are invulnerable to any threat from Shaka; you know the score, turn 1 we see a big stack enter our turf, turns 2 & 3 we annihilate it with Arty and Cavalry - game over.

And this becomes more certain with every Artillery piece produced; quite simply, Shaka will be there for the taking from now on. However, if we want it to be a quick, clean job, with no WW, then I advise waiting until he's RR'd up.

If anyone still wants an early, limited war, then pushing South to a line as far as Cattaraugus (sp?) would give us control of Silks, Incense and Coal.

My view is still that we should wait, but I'll continue with a military build up to cover our options.

 

[Phaedo]

The military build up can't hurt right? If we are just waiting on him to rail up. It'd be nice to be set to go in once he finished that and we have some time to create our invasion force so the whole empire doesn't really have to be dedicated to it.

 

[Bucephalus]

If nothing else, it will allow us to finish our infastructure; and it would be desirable (in my eyes at least) to be able to dedicate Athens to pre-building for Hoover's. I switched production there to a CP, because although it is beautifully mm for 2 turn Rifles, it won't cut-it for 2 turn Infantry; if we are not in a war situation it can make Hoover's in 15 or so turns.

Does anyone have any thoughts on that?