Buffed AI for BNW

[glider1]

I've satisfactorily tested a whole new concept of this mod. The change is actually very simple, and so other than balance issues, it should be free of bugs. See the change log in the opening post of this thread.

Here are my suggestions for your first game:

• Completely rethink your whole idea of how the AI progresses
• Emperor players should start at prince difficulty (perhaps even warlord)
• Because of the way this mod works, SINGLE CITY OR EXCESSIVELY TALL strategies will not work in this mod as it stands at the moment.
• The difficulty level is much more finely graduated in this mod than vanilla, so don't think you are a bad player if you loosing at warlord or prince difficulty. It is a mod for experienced players now. It probably also needs further refinements.
• The AI cannot fall drastically behind in this mod, regardless of the map type or starting location, because it's core bonuses are automatically adjusted by the game, so keep playing it till the end.

The good thing about this mod concept, is that when the AI is doing better than you, it's progress will be much more realistic and believable than vanilla. The bad thing is that unfortunately even warlord is more difficult, and so I have had to emphasise that the mod is for experienced players.

 

[joncnunn]

I've satisfactorily tested a whole new concept of this mod. See the change log in the opening post of this thread.

Here are my suggestions for your first game:

The good thing about this mod concept, is that when the AI is doing better than you, it's progress will be much more realistic and believable.

Is there any chance of releasing the source code for the dll? I'm curious on how you implemented it.

 

[glider1]

Yes, I will joncnunn, but for now I would prefer if you give the game a go so that you are not biased by knowing how the underlying code works. If you are struggling to beat the AI, I will gladly reveal the secret 11 herbs and spices in this mod.

EDIT: this applies to anyone, I can tell you how I do it, but give it a go first and play it like you normally would. If the AI is winning too much, I will reveal how it is done so that we can improve it.

 

[Dekraa]

I hope this has saved my weekend In my game I had a far more superior time with v11 than v12. But maybe it was just circumstances.

 

[glider1]

Hi Dekraa
Well my life is ruined by this game a long time ago already so a weekend lost doesn't matter any more With this new AI bonus system in this mod, you should never play a game again, where you give up because you think you will win. This is because of the dynamic buffing the AI gets now. The only time you should give up is if you are sure you are going to loose.

****Save your previous versions if you had a good game with it!***

This mod is changing fast but I think changes will slow down reasonably soon.

Latest version corrects a small oversight where the AI was still getting dynamic buffs even when it was unhappy. I can't allow that to happen because it would make AI happiness less relevant (a bit like it is in vanilla).

So V14 games should be a bit easier than V13 games.

 

[Dekraa]

three versions in one day.. that's much, even for pro's like us

 

[glider1]

I think this will probably be the last change for now (I'm happiest with the logic of it).

I came up with a better way of allocating the AI dynamic buffs as the game proceeds so that players tall/wide strategies won't upset the balance any more.

So play a single city strategy if you want!

Overall, V15 will be easier than V13/14 and so either just drop one level or stay on the level you are now at.

EDIT:
With this new dynamic buffing technique, even if you instawar a civ and cripple them, you don't necessarily win the game like you used to because the other AI's (even AI's you have not yet met) get a buff if the player is doing well relative to them, which should equalise how the game pans out and cause the player to be able to play out the entire game because at least one of the other AIs stays competitive.

NOTE:
The dynamic buffs that kick in and give the AI a boost only kick in if the AI is working at a lower yield than the player. If the AI is working at a higher yield, it only gets a passive boost with most of it's bonuses removed as in early versions of this mod (version 12 and less).

 

[glider1]

How are people going with V15? If you haven't tried V15, do it. It has seriously got one more turn factor, not just in the opening/midgame but also in the endgame. I haven't yet had the time to finish a complete game played through in detail so will be really interested to see how people go.

The difficulty levels in this mod work differently to the base game. Because the AI is getting a buff to keep it up to pace with human, in the opening/midgame phase, no matter what level you play on, the AI will tend to keep up with the player (however it is still a bit worse on lower levels). The real point of the difficulty level, is how the AI performs in the endgame. The higher the difficulty, the more likely the AI will be to spring a victory out of nowhere.

V13 and V14 were basically prototypes. V15 is the first real implementation of this new AI buff concept.

A clue to succeed in V15, is to not give your rivals happiness that would keep them above 0 happiness, and if possible try to keep their population level down (it increases at a realistic rate but is still pretty impressive even without the default growth bonus). AI's that have a high population and have got their happiness under control, are the main rivals you have to deal with. Because of the way this mod works, any leader is capable of doing well, and AI's that place cities in bad locations do not suffer nearly as much as they do in the base game.

EDIT:
Note that the AI's population IS rising at a realistic rate, it is getting no buff, I promise I have not faked it. What you see on the city banner is what they actually have....

 

[glider1]

I just finished a complete play-through on these settings with V15:
King, Small map, 7+7, Standard speed, Continents.

I think those settings make the game easier and will next time try 10+10 or the default 8+16 on a standard sized map.

I played tall as India and never went beyond three cities.
I was attacked to an inch of my life around turn 60 by the Babylonians and only just survived.
I won a diplomatic victory at turn 380 (which is probably 80-100 turns slower than normal for me).
I could not peg the gap with two other civs in tech (Germany and the Iroquois).
At the end of the game Germany and Iroquois were two techs ahead of me.
Germany knew five techs I didn't, I knew two techs Germany didn't.
What won the game for me is that Germany, Iroquois went Order, but me, Babylon and Holland went Freedom and became the world ideology.

There are at least two possible directions I could take this mod to make it harder:

• Return the AI's ability to spam non-military units like missionaries - this would have the effect of making it more difficult for humans to dominate in religion, which would make the diplomatic victory condition harder.
• I could scale the AI's declare war probability on humans. It is set to 120, but I could scale it per era so it would go something like 120,125,130,135,140,145,150 - That would make the game more difficult, but would narrow down the variety of the games and possibly have unintended side effects that spoil it.
• I could do nothing - just wait for people to tell me how difficult the game is on higher difficulties, like emperor, immortal, diety.

 

[Marshall Thomas]

I just finished a complete play-through on these settings with V15:
King, Small map, 7+7, Standard speed, Continents.

I think those settings make the game easier and will next time try 10+10 or the default 8+16 on a standard sized map.

I played tall as India and never went beyond three cities.
I was attacked to an inch of my life around turn 60 and only just survived.
I won a diplomatic victory at turn 380 (which is probably 80-100 turns slower than normal for me).
I could not peg the gap with two other civs in tech.
At the end of the game Germany and Iroquois were two techs ahead of me.
Germany knew five techs I didn't, I knew two techs Germany didn't.
What won the game for me is that Germany, Iroquois went Order, but me, Babylon and Holland went Freedom and became the world ideology.

There are at least two possible directions I could take this mod to make it harder:

• Return the AI's ability to spam non-military units like missionaries - this would have the effect of making it more difficult for humans to dominate in religion, which would make the diplomatic victory condition harder.
• I could scale the AI's declare war probability on humans. It is set to 120, but I could scale it per era so it would go something like 120,125,130,135,140,145,150 - That would make the game more difficult, but would narrow down the variety of the games and possibly have unintended side effects that spoil it.
• I could do nothing - just wait for people to tell me how difficult the game is on higher difficulties, like emperor, immortal, diety.

I'm going to start testing v15 this weekend. I'll play on my large/huge hybrid with 15 civs and 21 city-states. I'm thinking of testing on emperor.

I wish I had more time to play over the next couple of days. I'm really looking forward to trying v15.

 

[joncnunn]

How are people going with V15?

Turn 124 in early Midevil era on this. I'm playing as Immortal - Babylon - Standard map size - Large Islands - Only 8 city states.
I have currently only founded 3 cities in this as so far as there's not a pre Astronomy city site good enough for a 4th. Tradition was my first tree.

While I was researching Education I dropped from first place in number of techs discovered to third. I have since gotten back up to second.

If there are any wars going on with the AIs, its among the 5 civs I can't meet pre Astronomy on this map. (Unless of course Polynesia is one of them in which case they are a shoe in to be first host of World Council)

AI Rome placed its cities very badly for where the luxuries ended up as so far at least it can't ever work over half of their intended luxuries. Correction: they only founded the city to take in those luxuries a few turns ago, it's size 1.

AI Shoshone appears to have done much better with initial city placement.

One of the unmet AIs has already built at least five world wonders. (The pop up about most world wonders showed up), all but one AI has built at least one.
(I haven't tried to build any; my start is a low hammers - high gold one)

I was second to pantheon, first to religion & first to enhance (my start was suitable for Desert Faith)

Two AIs founded a religion between the time I founded and enhanced.

Edit: I would not recommend per era changes in war declaration that an above poster did. The base formula prior to it hiring XML sort of already takes that into account. (Military strength, in which if the AI is building military units and the human isn't, it's already fully covered)

Update:
I entered Rean era on turn 149 via Astronomy and am now second in science. One of the AIs entered this era slightly before me but its probably a different one that's not bypassing techs that passed me in number of techs.
My second Academy was built a turn or two ago.
I'm also #1 in population.
I still have no contact with 5 of the AIs (which is why I entered via Astronomy). It's very doubtful at this point that Polynesia is in the game. One or more of the undiscovered AIs continues to build a lot of world wonders.

The Roman AI is still running a 3 city empire, that newest city they have is still only size 2. (A human would be cash buying a light house, but AI not allowed to do this.) It's not yet connected any of the resources associated with it. (That's actually causing me minor happiness issues since I've only been able to trade luxuries with the Shoshone)
A glance at the Demographics screen is showing Roman AI is in last place in every single category except for science. (An unknown civ is dead last in science)

The Shoshone AI also appear to be running a 3 city empire, but I don't know the population of any of their cities other than the capital due to all that culture keeping the tiles in which their second and third cities must be (due to cultural boundary) undiscovered. In fact, the Shoshone AI is #1 in territory.

Attached is the turn 150 popup of how many techs everybody has.

 

[glider1]

Thanks Joncnunn. One of the things that I am learning from V15 is that to overtake other civs, it is not enough to expand your empire, you have to expand and shrink theirs at the same time. The shrinking doesn't have to mean war. If you throw the opponent into unhappiness, or cause other weaker AI's to shrink them for you, that will do the job.

Ok, agree, I won't touch the AI declare war probability for now. I'm reluctant to change it as well.

At this stage, I'm getting a feeling that religion might be too easy.

PS) The way V15 is running now, it doesn't matter what game speed you play, even marathon will give players a competitive game. Why? It is the way that the bonuses feed from the human to the AI which is independent of map size, game speed, map type and game difficulty, so that most likely the AI one way or another keeps up with the player (until the end perhaps). It also shouldn't matter as much, what type of policy mods or alternative civs people are running, because even if the AI is bad at using modified policies, it get's dynamically compensated. So this mod is good for people to use with other mods.

EDIT:
The impression of the large islands map from what you are describing is that the AI is not very good at placing cities on it. It seems better on continents. In V15 however, AI city placement doesn't matter as much because exactly like you have noticed, if the AI isn't connecting luxuries, you aren't getting them either, and if the AI's cities are not very productive, the dynamic buff algorithm in this mod kicks in and starts feeding the AI with buffs it needs to keep competitive with the player.

NOTES:
I think it is possible I have set the AI wonder bonuses too high. The AI will look around at other AI's, see that they are equally matched militarily, and decide to wonder spam instead. If the AI wonder bonus is set too low, the human will build too many wonders, but the AI's productivity will shift into military production and possibly make the AI more likely to DOW the player.

 

[joncnunn]

Turn 164 update: I just made contact with the last of the 5 "lost" civs.
At least one AI is known to have Printing Press (due to having built Leaning Tower).
World Congress not yet founded, I'm five turns away unless I get beat out.
My own happiness problems got solved meeting some of them.
I'm still #2 in science.

The full list of AIs are:

1. Assyria. They are the only AI (and only civ besides myself) that has not built a single world wonder. So far I've seen three of their cities, all are nicely placed, but they did not found a pantheon.

2. Rome. That newest city is size 2. Still have not connected the luxuries there. And they are dead last in every category, but do have two world wonders. They were early to a pantheon, but all religions were taken before they could upgrade it to a full religion.

3. Huns. They built 1 wonder. They denounced Brazil a few turns before I discovered them. They founded a religion. I have no visibility to their other cities. They are #1 in Gold and military.

4. Brazil. They built 4 wonders, founded a religion, and are the current tech leader. In addition they are #1 in crop yield and in goods. They denounced the Huns long ago. Their starting city looks really good, I don't have visibility of any of their other cities.

5. Ottomans. They built 3 wonders, they founded a religion, but their pantheon is questionable since they chose God of the Sea without any sea luxuries. (Just one fish worked by the capital) Their capital location looks ok. I don't have visibility of any of their other cities.

6. Shoshone. They built 1 wonder but not not found a pantheon. They are still number 1 in land area. My caravels have been too busy making new contacts to try to get visibility to their other cities that got blocked from view by culture.

7. China. They built 11 wonders and founded a religion. They are #1 in population. Their capital is in a really good spot, I have no visibility to their other cities.

First World Council minor update (turn 169 is when it occurred) :
Three of the civs wanted Arts funding to be proposed while another three wanted Science Funding to be proposed. (Huns didn't care either way)
The 2 AIs that are wonder hogs wanted Cultural Heritage proposed, while the one that hadn't built any didn't want it proposed.
The 2 AIs most behind in techs wanted Scholarship proposed. Nobody strongly opposed.
The Huns would have been strongly opposed of a standing military tax. Nobody wanted one.
None of the AIs wanted to embargo city states nor any civ.

I proposed Natural Heritage Sites as a proxy for a do nothing proposal that won't anger anybody.
Assyria broke the tie among of the AIs with a single vote to be able to propose something, and they proposed Scholarship.

My level 2 spy (Agent) doesn't appear effective protecting Babylon. When it was a raw recruit fewer techs got stolen. I'm not sure if spying mechanics were changed in the mod / probability of the AI trying to spy on the human changed / or if its just the RNG hating me, since usually you don't lose more than a couple of techs before being promoted to secret agent.

Turn 172 minor update: Rome (as above they are in last place in every single category), just denounced the Shoshone for no apparent reason. Appears suicidal.

 

[glider1]

Keep in mind that by solving your own happiness problems through trade, you might be keeping other AI's out of unhappiness. The AI's that benefit the most from the dynamic buff in this mod, are the one's that have high populations and are happy, but are yielding too low in the core yields (science and/or production and/or gold) to be able to stand on their own legs. They will be getting propped up to stay competitive with the player. As soon as they are outdoing the player on their own terms, or they collapse into unhappiness, they start loosing the dynamic buff and only get the passive buffs that are built into this mod like the per-era-modifiers that even the base game has got.

If you are second in science, I am a bit worried that the gap will not be enough for the AI to out do you in a victory condition. I'm personally rooting for the AI here!

EDIT:
Joncnunn I'd be really interested to hear whether the Huns have done well in your game through warfare. Perhaps they were the ones that crippled Rome? I'm keeping a close eye on conquest civs in V15 to see how well they do. I haven't yet played a game with Monte, Genghis etc playing. The conquester AI's are the one's that are taking all the risks and they should sometimes get a pay off. I played one game with Germany, that reduced most of their neighbours to city states and then switched to a tourism strategy from what I could see.

 

[joncnunn]

If you are second in science, I am a bit worried that the gap will not be enough for the AI to out do you in a victory condition. I'm personally rooting for the AI here!

EDIT:
Joncnunn I'd be really interested to hear whether the Huns have done well in your game through warfare. Perhaps they were the ones that crippled Rome? I'm keeping a close eye on conquest civs in V15 to see how well they do. I haven't yet played a game with Monte, Genghis etc playing. The conquester AI's are the one's that are taking all the risks and they should sometimes get a pay off. I played one game with Germany, that reduced most of their neighbours to city states and then switched to a tourism strategy from what I could see.

Remember that I'm playing Babylon which along with Korea are the top civs in Science in the hands of the human.

I only made contact with Huns a few turns ago, it's Brazil that they don't like and the feeling is mutual. (Based on their denouements of each other.)

I've been in contact with Rome & Shoshone the whole game, neither of them have been at war with anyone. I think Rome have have lucked out that it wasn't the Huns starting where Shoshone did as the more aggressive AIs would have DOWed Rome for being so weak long ago. I'm thinking though that Assyria AI may DOW Rome soon after they discover them since the are next closest and I have seen Assyria be aggressive in other games.

Update:
Actually, the Shoshone just shared intrigue (turn 185) that Huns are planning on sneak attacking Babylon. That's even with Brazil and Huns mutually not liking each other and being much closer neighbors. About ten turns ago, the Shoshone was trying to get me to join in attacking Rome; that follows Rome having denounced Shoshone a few turns before, apparently out of the blue.

 

[glider1]

Playing Babylon for science in this mod doesn't benefit humans as much any more.

Why?

Because all it means is that the other AI's, whether you have met them or not, will be fed the players Babylonian science sooner than they otherwise would be because almost none of the AI's would be able to match the player's raw Babylonian science output. This is the way dynamic buffing works in V15.

In V15, it is not so much about pushing raw science output, but differential science output.

 

[joncnunn]

The Hunic War turns 190 - 196

I was going to wait for the Industrial era to start before my next update, but with me involved in a war, I'm posting the update earlier.

Pre war: Mt Sinai was unsettled so I founded a city there to take it in as my fourth city. (Cash rushed) With China having a nearby city, I used the cash to annex Mt Sinai and every useful tile within 3 hexes of the Chinese city that was also within 3 hexes of mine that same turn. (I'd discovered that the AI can't tell the difference between the Shoshone founding a city and some other player buying tiles a few months ago and took advantage of it. By contrast, waiting just one between founding a city and buying those tiles would have made China really mad.)

Shoshone and Brazil both asked for DOF with me, and I signed them.

Using the advise of the Shoshone intrigue about the Huns, I signed a Defense Pact with both the Shoshone and Brazil. And in addition, started moving my navy into positions to defend Babylon.

The result of the war:
The Huns lost their entire invading force. It's main task force was several Caravels + 1 Horse Archer. It also had a few detached Caravels.
One was within a city state's boundary that was an ally of the Shoshone and so got sunk rapidly.
The other was near another one of my cities and took out 2 of the fishing boats before it got wiped out.
Also I had been running a trade route with them and it didn't come up for renewal in time so that got destroyed the first turn of the war.

On Turn 196, the Huns were willing for straight up peace and with me not yet having Navigation, I signed a peace treaty. Between turns, the signed peace treaties with Brazil and Shoshone.

I'll update the post when industrial era starts in a few turns. Perhaps I should mention that this game has legendary resources, so even if I don't trade luxuries with the AI, the AI will trade among themselves now that the World Council has been founded.

Industrial Era update:
I entered Industrial era 3rd, demographic screen shows me in second place in science and #1 in population.

Huns : 3 techs ahead and 2 behind. Number 1 in military
Assyria : 1 tech ahead and 1 behind
Brazil : 4 techs and not behind any. Number 1 in food, hammers, gold, and science
Shoshone : 3 techs ahead and 2 behind
China : 1 tech ahead, not behind on any. They are #1 in land area
Rome : 1 tech ahead and 3 behind. They remain dead last in every category
Ottomans : 3 techs and 3 behind. They are #1 in happiness.

During the World council, as expected the Natural Heritage proposal failed. Assyria's Scholar proposal passed.

4 civs are now wanting science funding compared to 2 wanting arts funding.
I proposed the Worlds Fair. Two AIs, including Brazil support it.
Brazil, which now has 3 votes due to having built Forbidden Palace proposed repealing the scholarship proposal that had just passed.

 

[glider1]

It will be interesting to see whether any other AI will DOW the Huns, now that they have almost zero military capacity. If their cities haven't been taken out, but their yielding is poor relative to the player, they could well rebuild their military capacity quickly using the dynamic buff they get in this mod.

EDIT:
In V15, if the AI looses a city, they still may get a dynamic buff from this mod, but overall it won't be enough to compete with the player that has more cities than they (and therefore a higher population than they), because capacity is tied to population (as well as technology), and fewer cities means lower population and therefore lower capacity.

 

[joncnunn]

It will be interesting to see whether any other AI will DOW the Huns, now that they have almost zero military capacity. If their cities haven't been taken out, but their yielding is poor relative to the player, they could well rebuild their military capacity quickly using the dynamic buff they get in this mod.

EDIT:
In V15, if the AI looses a city, they still may get a dynamic buff from this mod, but overall it won't be enough to compete with the player that has more cities than they (and therefore a higher population than they), because capacity is tied to population (as well as technology), and fewer cities means lower population and therefore lower capacity.

Even with that wipe out of the Huns main invasion force, they are still #1 in military according to the Demographic screen. This is in part because they had several other individual Caravels I saw right after the war. (Based on turn number and distance from the Huns those had to have been built before the war)
To be a threat, all they need to do is regroup them all. (Although with Navigation just around the corner, Caravels are about to become obsolete for things other than exploration and commerce raiding anyway) Also, with their main invasion force only having been escorting one army unit, their land units are all intact.

Update: I'm now in mid Industrial era, I'll post the Industrial era notes when I enter the modern era (expected tomorrow), but a preview is that several wars broke out.

 

[glider1]

That's good to hear for me Joncnunn that wars have broken out. I was concerned that if too many AI's are falling below the competitive threshold, they would all get the dynamic buff in this mod and have roughly equal armies/navies causing a cold war with no war action.

I'd be interested to hear whether the Huns have enough cash to upgrade their navy. One potential problem with V15 is that the dynamic buff is calculated on a per city basis and does not consider anything else. So if the Huns are struggling economically due to city yield problems, they will get the dynamic buff in this mod to help their economic yield, but if that yield is still too low to pay for military upkeep, they still will be broke.