Sure, I'll try Egypt with it.
Buffed AI for BNW
- Thread starter glider1
- Start date
Sure, I'll try Egypt with it.
glider1
Deity
Thanks Joncnunn. I've given this beta a test run today. It is a lot of fun, really tough going but rewarding. The difficulty is ramped up yet again with this beta. The mistake I made with tying the adaptive buff to population was that I didn't realise how bad the AI is at managing it in new settlements. Now I've tied the adaptive buff to land area, which is something that is very easy for the AI to manage.
So population is no longer the buzz word. Nor is science. The buzz word now is land area. If you have a smaller land area (tall) but are yielding very high, you will leak a lot of yield to the wide AIs. It helps the wide AIs to avoid stagnation.
In my test emperor/pangaea game on #12, I did everything tall that I could to expand land area on only three cities. It only took till late medieval to realise that I think the 3-city build won't be enough to keep the wide AIs from progressing. I left it on 3-cities, and then captured Monte's capital and built a 5th settlement, but by then, the wide AIs were progressing along nicely, some were more than the tech funnel ahead of me in tech (one was an era ahead).
So I think Joncnunn on his island maps, might have to consider colonizing quite aggressively, if he sees a wide AI making good progress on land area. I doubt that 3-cities will be enough.
Changes in this build:
Questions:
Basically, beta #12 is a milestone, and there could be some balance issues, but all in all it is producing a very dynamic, interesting game for me.
EDIT: The good news is that you don't have to optimise science or population any more. Optimising land area is as important.
So population is no longer the buzz word. Nor is science. The buzz word now is land area. If you have a smaller land area (tall) but are yielding very high, you will leak a lot of yield to the wide AIs. It helps the wide AIs to avoid stagnation.
In my test emperor/pangaea game on #12, I did everything tall that I could to expand land area on only three cities. It only took till late medieval to realise that I think the 3-city build won't be enough to keep the wide AIs from progressing. I left it on 3-cities, and then captured Monte's capital and built a 5th settlement, but by then, the wide AIs were progressing along nicely, some were more than the tech funnel ahead of me in tech (one was an era ahead).
So I think Joncnunn on his island maps, might have to consider colonizing quite aggressively, if he sees a wide AI making good progress on land area. I doubt that 3-cities will be enough.
Changes in this build:
- Fixed a rare bug in the trade route buff
- Changed the adaptive buff to be grounded on land area instead of population
Questions:
- Are the passive buffs too high, causing players to fall too far behind?
- Is the tech funnel that keeps the AIs up to speed on tech, too effective, making the player feel like giving up?
Basically, beta #12 is a milestone, and there could be some balance issues, but all in all it is producing a very dynamic, interesting game for me.
EDIT: The good news is that you don't have to optimise science or population any more. Optimising land area is as important.
S which started the new game as Egypt on Immortal with Beta 12 + the National Wonder changes + International Space Station Project can be proposed at Rocketry instead of Satellites. (This will give a much better shot of proposing the ISS early enough to help a science victory)
My usual 1:1 city state ratio
I'm after a cultural victory
During the Ancient & Classical eras, full tradition can actually provide more land area than liberty. (Unless comparing against full Liberty + Tradition opener), I expect it starts reversing in Midevil era when pure liberty would have enough cities to have about equal territory to full Tradition. During Reanance is when the full Liberty start will get significantly head of full Tradition in claimed tiles.
With it being based on land tiles, the land area of the islands found when they leave their own landmass will be a factor.
On an unrelated matter, it turns out that everything important about new trade routes is a complied C++ constant that's not visible at the database / XML layer
I could at XML layer reduce the era bonuses to them (and even make them start as a penalty via a negative bonus in ancient & classical eras) but with such a change impacting internal caravans in addition to cargo ships I'm reluctant to do that. (Poor AI might actually try to run a food / hammer caravan getting only 2 or 3 food or hammers)
I am however happy to say that the external part of Cargo ships being over powered vs Carvans can be largely neutralized by either eliminating the harbor a bonus to sea trade routes (just keeping the distance bonus) or by also giving the harbor a bonus to land trade routes which should stack with the Caravansary.
Edit: Turn 110 Beginning of Rean era status as Egypt on Immortal level:
3 of the AIs I met are dead even on techs with me (20)
Netherlands though is a bit behind with only 14 techs. Oh, they went Piety instead of either Tradition or Liberty, so it's expected.
It's nice playing this mod as Egypt that you can actually use the UA to build a couple of early wonders. (Great Library & Oracle) One of the AIs though picked Divine Inspiration.
Depending upon exactly how implemented it could give the AIs a bit more hammers in turns in which either a world wonder or national wonder is being constructed.
Land area: This early the Tradition start with 3 well spaced cities currently has me with a land area lead on the strength of the Tradition opener. (A settler is in route to my 4th planned city.) I expect the AI to catch up on this later.
So I suspect we are mostly seeing the tech funnel affects instead of the land area affects.
My usual 1:1 city state ratio
I'm after a cultural victory
During the Ancient & Classical eras, full tradition can actually provide more land area than liberty. (Unless comparing against full Liberty + Tradition opener), I expect it starts reversing in Midevil era when pure liberty would have enough cities to have about equal territory to full Tradition. During Reanance is when the full Liberty start will get significantly head of full Tradition in claimed tiles.
With it being based on land tiles, the land area of the islands found when they leave their own landmass will be a factor.
On an unrelated matter, it turns out that everything important about new trade routes is a complied C++ constant that's not visible at the database / XML layer
I could at XML layer reduce the era bonuses to them (and even make them start as a penalty via a negative bonus in ancient & classical eras) but with such a change impacting internal caravans in addition to cargo ships I'm reluctant to do that. (Poor AI might actually try to run a food / hammer caravan getting only 2 or 3 food or hammers)
I am however happy to say that the external part of Cargo ships being over powered vs Carvans can be largely neutralized by either eliminating the harbor a bonus to sea trade routes (just keeping the distance bonus) or by also giving the harbor a bonus to land trade routes which should stack with the Caravansary.
Edit: Turn 110 Beginning of Rean era status as Egypt on Immortal level:
3 of the AIs I met are dead even on techs with me (20)
Netherlands though is a bit behind with only 14 techs. Oh, they went Piety instead of either Tradition or Liberty, so it's expected.
It's nice playing this mod as Egypt that you can actually use the UA to build a couple of early wonders. (Great Library & Oracle) One of the AIs though picked Divine Inspiration.
Depending upon exactly how implemented it could give the AIs a bit more hammers in turns in which either a world wonder or national wonder is being constructed.
Land area: This early the Tradition start with 3 well spaced cities currently has me with a land area lead on the strength of the Tradition opener. (A settler is in route to my 4th planned city.) I expect the AI to catch up on this later.
So I suspect we are mostly seeing the tech funnel affects instead of the land area affects.
glider1
Deity
I'm thinking of building a sister mod to this, with your changes in it. They sound good. That will come once the work level drops. I definitely like 1:1 on civ:cs. I could at that stage, expose the C++ constants to XML for you. Perhaps WHoward has already done that in his VMC DLL?
It worth trying to reflect on the three components of this mod and what they do (even I get confused):
The higher the difficulty the more passive buff dominates over active buff. Other way round for lower difficulty.
EDIT:
In theory, you would think that we could just turn off the adaptive buff system, and rely solely on the passive buffs and the tech funnel. Problem is, that the passive buffs are unreliable. Sometimes they are too low and if that happens, the game becomes too easy. At the end of the day, the adaptive buff changes the quality of the game (hopefully increasing the diversity of the game), while the other buffs do not. It turns out, that the adaptive buff is actually a way of balancing tall verses wide indirectly.
It worth trying to reflect on the three components of this mod and what they do (even I get confused):
- Static buffs: These help the AI with project completion and other thresholds that are set on a once off basis before the game even starts.
- Passive buff: These help AI production, growth, unit supply, inflation rate, and upgrade pricing on a per-era basis. The buffs are applied without the mod checking whether the AI needs them or not.
- Adaptive buff: This buff monitors AI and player performance and tries to help the AI when the player is outperforming the AI in yield. So the adaptive buff kicks when the passive buffs are inadequate to keep the AI competitive. Depending on how well the player is yielding, it gives gold, production, science to the AI that meet a criterion. It used to be population. Now the criterion is land area. The adaptive buff prefers to give the AI buff to AIs that have more land area than the player.
- Tech funnel buff: The soul purpose of this buff, is to ensure that AIs keep up to speed in tech rate relative to the player, by boosting their science rate when necessary. It has upper and lower limits that are set for each era. It regulates how much the AI will be ahead of the player in tech, and a lower limit that regulates when lagging AIs start to get a science boost to catch up.
The higher the difficulty the more passive buff dominates over active buff. Other way round for lower difficulty.
EDIT:
In theory, you would think that we could just turn off the adaptive buff system, and rely solely on the passive buffs and the tech funnel. Problem is, that the passive buffs are unreliable. Sometimes they are too low and if that happens, the game becomes too easy. At the end of the day, the adaptive buff changes the quality of the game (hopefully increasing the diversity of the game), while the other buffs do not. It turns out, that the adaptive buff is actually a way of balancing tall verses wide indirectly.
Here is the turn 160 update (beginning of Rean era [for me that is, while Printing Press is my favorite way into it with BNW, the AI prefers entering via Banking & Astronomy.
I'm committed to seeking a Cultural victory between following Tradition having gone Aesthics and picking as my second follower the belief that gives cultural & tourism bonuses to Hermitage.
Me: 30 techs. R era. Land score is 50. #1 population, crops, land
Austria: 33 techs.. R era. Land score is 49. #1 in everything else
Portugal: 31 techs. R era. Land score 33
Netherlands: 26 techs. M era. Land score 23. Worst man goods, GNP, land.
Maya: 22 techs. M era. Land score 18. Worst population, crops, troops, science.
France: 30 techs. R era. Land score 33.
Mongols: 28 techs. R era. Land score 30. Worst happiness
England: 31 techs. R era. Land score 38.
It seems that the demographic score area percentage is using a different formula than the score.
Mongols are struggling since they keep on DOWing city states and getting their invasion force wiped out by the city states. (These aren't anybody's allies) That included getting wiped out 2 times on the one in its own landmass. England, defender of city states, is already seeking an ally to DOW them.
Austria beat me to founding the world congress by half a turn. But no harm done since they had earlier built the Forbidden Palace and they currently want Arts Funding. Hopefully they won't change their mind in 30 turns.
My plan is to attempt to build Leaning Tower as a twofer for Globe. Austria is my main competition for this (and in fact it looks like Austria is going to be the one with the most culture for me to overcome)
Tradition is great in the first half of the game in keeping a land area lead even with a total of 4 cities including the capital, but it's about maxed out so I expect Austria to take the lead soon.
I'm committed to seeking a Cultural victory between following Tradition having gone Aesthics and picking as my second follower the belief that gives cultural & tourism bonuses to Hermitage.
Me: 30 techs. R era. Land score is 50. #1 population, crops, land
Austria: 33 techs.. R era. Land score is 49. #1 in everything else
Portugal: 31 techs. R era. Land score 33
Netherlands: 26 techs. M era. Land score 23. Worst man goods, GNP, land.
Maya: 22 techs. M era. Land score 18. Worst population, crops, troops, science.
France: 30 techs. R era. Land score 33.
Mongols: 28 techs. R era. Land score 30. Worst happiness
England: 31 techs. R era. Land score 38.
It seems that the demographic score area percentage is using a different formula than the score.
Mongols are struggling since they keep on DOWing city states and getting their invasion force wiped out by the city states. (These aren't anybody's allies) That included getting wiped out 2 times on the one in its own landmass. England, defender of city states, is already seeking an ally to DOW them.
Austria beat me to founding the world congress by half a turn. But no harm done since they had earlier built the Forbidden Palace and they currently want Arts Funding. Hopefully they won't change their mind in 30 turns.
My plan is to attempt to build Leaning Tower as a twofer for Globe. Austria is my main competition for this (and in fact it looks like Austria is going to be the one with the most culture for me to overcome)
Tradition is great in the first half of the game in keeping a land area lead even with a total of 4 cities including the capital, but it's about maxed out so I expect Austria to take the lead soon.
glider1
Deity
I know now what the weakness of the land area criterion is. It hurts AIs that bank all their land area gain onto conquest. Suspect that is what has happened to Mongolia. One way to fix that would be to increase the passive buff so that less adaptive buff feeds to the ai in the opening phase.
Edit
That in effect is what happens when the player increases the difficulty. If you went up to deity, less adaptive buff would feed to the ai. It might work out better for small islands maps.
Edit
That in effect is what happens when the player increases the difficulty. If you went up to deity, less adaptive buff would feed to the ai. It might work out better for small islands maps.
glider1
Deity
I could also consider weakening city states more as well.
EDIT: But how?
EDIT: But how?
Ideas:
1. Apply human ranged nerf to city state ranged units.
2. Don't give City states the "AI Attack bonus", might be good to NOT give the barbs this either.
3. Can bombardment of the city state be limited to 1 hex unlike other cities?
4. How about City states get a 25% cut in melee strength?
5. Bump Mongolian UA up from +33% against city states & city state units to +50%.
glider1
Deity
Thanks.
It was an oversight to give the attack bonus to city states and barbarians. For the next beta I have removed the attack bonus for CS and barbarians for both melee and ranged attack. That should also help the major AIs tackle barbarians in the early game.
The problem with the other suggestions are that they have side effects....
You were correct in noting that CS get tech based on tech diffusion from other majors. It is currently set that 40% of majors need to have a particular tech for the minors to get the tech. I think that should be increased to 80% because the tech funnel means that more AIs will have the same tech than usually present in the game which ends up making the CS stronger than they otherwise would be.
So all these things should help Genghis do his thing!
EDIT:
So I'll trial 80% and see how that goes. Let me know if you think that is too extreme a value.
Let me know if you or anyone else want the beta for these changes to CS.
80% is too extreme a value in 8 player game if AI Maya is in the game. (Looking at the Maya's initial greeting text, it appears even the developers knew how bad the Mayan flavor setting is in combo with their jungle bias.)
6 majors out of 8 is only 75%, so if AI Maya is in the game it would require every other major to have the tech at 80%.
Even the default 40% actually functions as 50% in an 8 player game (unless and until 1 major is completely wiped out.)
If the intent is 6 majors out of 8 should have the tech, 65% will do it. (So will 70% if on a large or huge map you want one more major to have to have the tech than the threshold would be at 65%.)
I wouldn't go above 70% since 5 majors out of 7 [one civ wiped out] is about 71.4%.
Edit: Turn 195 Beginning of Industrial era Update
During the Rean era, England had enough of Mongolia's wars on city states and DOWed Mongolia. They quickly took Mongolia's eastern most city on their land mass which includes the El Dorado natural wonder. They are still at war.
France also DOWed Maya. I haven't seen any territory changes but I haven't gotten a caravel over to that portion of the world yet either. It's actually quite a long distance so it appears that Napoleon just thought that Pascal was extremely weak. They are still at war.
Austria did indeed vote for Arts Funding so that's passed, however during that first congress they also proposed Worlds Fair, so that's in progress 30 turns earlier than I really wanted. There was also nothing good to propose so I just went with the do nothing Natural Heritage proposal.
Me: 38 techs. I Era. Land score 58. #1 population & approval *** There are several cheap techs that I have bypassed ***
Austria: 41 techs. I Era. Land score 64. #1 in everything else.
Portugal: 39 techs. R era. Land score 38.
Netherlands: 37 techs. R era. Land score 21.
Maya: 30 techs. R era. Land score 22. Worst population, crops, troops, and science.
France: 40 techs. R era. Land score 48.
Mongols: 38 techs. R era. Land score 22. Worst man goods, GNP, land, and approval.
England: 41 techs. I era. Land score 54.
My planned cultural victory is looking good, while I didn't succeed in Leaning Tower, I did complete the Globe Theater & Uffizini this era to go along with the earlier Great Library & Oracle. I've already completed the Aesthetics tree and so have both the opener to Rationalism and Secularism while waiting for ideology.
glider1
Deity
Thanks for the help. 65% it is.
I wonder how Austria does in your game. If they settle down and don't increase land score any further, you look to be ok, because the +3 tech lead the tech funnel gives won't be enough to beat you to CV. The other AIs are out of the game it seems, unless England can do another round of conquering, and clearly exceed you in land area. They are the dark horse.
EDIT:
There is a big difference in how this mod plays out on small islands compared to pangaea. The reason is that the AI can make sudden and dramatic improvements to its land area via conquest. When that happens, the player has to respond by acquiring more land area to compete, but that can trigger resentment amongst other majors who don't like your quick expansion. The way to mitigate that is to make friends with distant powerful civs, but make enemies with your immediate neighbours.
I wonder how Austria does in your game. If they settle down and don't increase land score any further, you look to be ok, because the +3 tech lead the tech funnel gives won't be enough to beat you to CV. The other AIs are out of the game it seems, unless England can do another round of conquering, and clearly exceed you in land area. They are the dark horse.
EDIT:
There is a big difference in how this mod plays out on small islands compared to pangaea. The reason is that the AI can make sudden and dramatic improvements to its land area via conquest. When that happens, the player has to respond by acquiring more land area to compete, but that can trigger resentment amongst other majors who don't like your quick expansion. The way to mitigate that is to make friends with distant powerful civs, but make enemies with your immediate neighbours.
joosegoose25
King
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2014
- Messages
- 644
Alright, started up another Emperor game. Kept everything almost identical from the last time (playing as Egypt, standard size and speed, Pangaea, 10 civs, 12 city-states, and almost all of the civs are the same) except this is with v18. I played until turn 155 again, and made an album to hopefully give a good overall picture of what is going on. Here's the album: http://imgur.com/a/LVWhI
A few interesting notes:
No AI is expanding nearly as much as I would expect. Even Alex appears content with 3 or 4 cities, and there is plenty of fertile land up for grabs right beside his capital.
It didn't take long for my neighbors to think I was populating too recklessly. I was met with a dual DoW from China and Greece a little after turn 100. Wu brought a very weak attack, retreating after I killed only 1 or 2 warriors. I was able to burn down a small expansion city she had built, and a while later got her second city in the peace treaty, leaving her with only her capital.
I never saw a single unit from Alex in the war, though it didn't make him any less stubborn with regards to ending the war. It took a while before either Alex or Wu would even discuss peace, but when they did Alex took white peace.
A few of the AIs are managing to keep up with technologies. Though, it's worth pointing out I delayed the National College immensely (after T130 iirc) and I have yet to build a single University. Heck, I just entered the Renaissance and haven't even researched Theology. All things considered I'm still surprised I'm doing as well with technologies as I am.
I still have the save from when I made that Imgur album, let me know if there's anything else you would like to know.
A few interesting notes:
No AI is expanding nearly as much as I would expect. Even Alex appears content with 3 or 4 cities, and there is plenty of fertile land up for grabs right beside his capital.
It didn't take long for my neighbors to think I was populating too recklessly. I was met with a dual DoW from China and Greece a little after turn 100. Wu brought a very weak attack, retreating after I killed only 1 or 2 warriors. I was able to burn down a small expansion city she had built, and a while later got her second city in the peace treaty, leaving her with only her capital.
I never saw a single unit from Alex in the war, though it didn't make him any less stubborn with regards to ending the war. It took a while before either Alex or Wu would even discuss peace, but when they did Alex took white peace.
A few of the AIs are managing to keep up with technologies. Though, it's worth pointing out I delayed the National College immensely (after T130 iirc) and I have yet to build a single University. Heck, I just entered the Renaissance and haven't even researched Theology. All things considered I'm still surprised I'm doing as well with technologies as I am.
I still have the save from when I made that Imgur album, let me know if there's anything else you would like to know.
glider1
Deity
Thanks for the effort Joosegoose!
I have to admit I just don't understand. There is a possibility that 10+12 is too dense. AIs are better at keeping teching with each other and may be able to keep up better military strength relative to each other.
Are you turning down the combat buffs? If you do that, it also changes the AIs assessment of your military power.
I don't change anything to do with AI expansion.
If anything, the AI expands better because it's settlers don't die to barbarians. There is a possibility you might want to wait until beta #13, where I make it easier for the majors to capture the minors, and for the AI to kill barbarians. However, I doubt that explains what you are seeing.
I'll think about it, but I haven't as yet replicated in my own games on pangaea. Here are the stats of my game at the same time as yours on emperor/quick/pangaea with (9+9) on standard size.
Turn 155:
Iroquois 9 cities
Poland 8 cities
Persia 6 cities
Morocco 6 cities
Germany 3 cities
Me 3 cities (trying to play tall).
There is a possibility that an ultra quick wide expansion is a great strategy on pangaea, because it turns off the adaptive buff system in this mod because you have a much bigger land area than the AI. This mod does assume that AIs expand as per normal (because I don't change anything in that regard). If that assumption is wrong, the mod will play weak. The mod also assumes that AIs will attack humans that expand recklessly. If that assumption is wrong, or you turn down the combat buffs, the mod will play weakly.
EDIT:
As for the small armies, can't explain that either at the moment. I've had full blown attacks on me. Suggest not to weaken the combat buffs in this mod. That actually changes how the AI calculates military power. They will perceive you as stronger, if you lower the combat nerfs and buffs, and therefore will be less likely to attack with full conquest in mind.
Once again, I don't change anything in combat except that the AI initially starts out with only two warriors but guards it's workers better with that initial small army.
What I'll try next game, is to play a rapid wide expansion game on pangaea and see what happens.
I have to admit I just don't understand. There is a possibility that 10+12 is too dense. AIs are better at keeping teching with each other and may be able to keep up better military strength relative to each other.
Are you turning down the combat buffs? If you do that, it also changes the AIs assessment of your military power.
I don't change anything to do with AI expansion.
If anything, the AI expands better because it's settlers don't die to barbarians. There is a possibility you might want to wait until beta #13, where I make it easier for the majors to capture the minors, and for the AI to kill barbarians. However, I doubt that explains what you are seeing.
I'll think about it, but I haven't as yet replicated in my own games on pangaea. Here are the stats of my game at the same time as yours on emperor/quick/pangaea with (9+9) on standard size.
Turn 155:
Iroquois 9 cities
Poland 8 cities
Persia 6 cities
Morocco 6 cities
Germany 3 cities
Me 3 cities (trying to play tall).
There is a possibility that an ultra quick wide expansion is a great strategy on pangaea, because it turns off the adaptive buff system in this mod because you have a much bigger land area than the AI. This mod does assume that AIs expand as per normal (because I don't change anything in that regard). If that assumption is wrong, the mod will play weak. The mod also assumes that AIs will attack humans that expand recklessly. If that assumption is wrong, or you turn down the combat buffs, the mod will play weakly.
EDIT:
As for the small armies, can't explain that either at the moment. I've had full blown attacks on me. Suggest not to weaken the combat buffs in this mod. That actually changes how the AI calculates military power. They will perceive you as stronger, if you lower the combat nerfs and buffs, and therefore will be less likely to attack with full conquest in mind.
Once again, I don't change anything in combat except that the AI initially starts out with only two warriors but guards it's workers better with that initial small army.
What I'll try next game, is to play a rapid wide expansion game on pangaea and see what happens.
I would agree with 10 by 12 being too dense on the main landmass on a standard pangena size map. At the very least I'd recommend pangena plus to relocate some of the city states to nearby islands.
I also guess that the human range nerf may be hurting standard dense tactics with Egypt (namely the War Chariot not being quite as effective in the mod as it is in base game.) That's if your using the combat nerf, if not, all you need to do is spam 4 or 5 War Chariots to rush any non-capital city early. (A lowly scout can capture it after bombarded to zero)
glider1
Deity
Joosegoose talks about Alex not expanding into plenty of fertile near his capital that Alex is not expanding into.
I suspect that is because the AI is not getting the happiness bonuses it gets on the default game. So if the map doesn't throw up luxuries, the AI is probably not going to expand there even if it is fertile, until it has computed that it has happiness under control.
So I'd say that players coming in from deity, are shocked because the AI expands slower and its initial first attack is weak (because it doesn't get nearly as many free units).
Perhaps the trick is to play this mod on deity, as you would in the base game,
*but don't alter the combat buffs*
I guess I shouldn't put "for skilled players" onto the end of this mod.
This mod tries to increase the diversity of game options and bring BNW up to what I consider a minimum acceptable standard for combat.
I guess that is what it actually tries to do.
So play it on the same difficulty you are used to already from the base game.
A deity level player shouldn't play this on emperor?
I suspect that is because the AI is not getting the happiness bonuses it gets on the default game. So if the map doesn't throw up luxuries, the AI is probably not going to expand there even if it is fertile, until it has computed that it has happiness under control.
So I'd say that players coming in from deity, are shocked because the AI expands slower and its initial first attack is weak (because it doesn't get nearly as many free units).
Perhaps the trick is to play this mod on deity, as you would in the base game,
*but don't alter the combat buffs*
I guess I shouldn't put "for skilled players" onto the end of this mod.
This mod tries to increase the diversity of game options and bring BNW up to what I consider a minimum acceptable standard for combat.
I guess that is what it actually tries to do.
So play it on the same difficulty you are used to already from the base game.
A deity level player shouldn't play this on emperor?
joosegoose25
King
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2014
- Messages
- 644
Perhaps 10x12 is a little too dense, but I don't think it's been anything of an issue. Sea level is set to low and the landmass is especially large and blobby--spacing doesn't feel any different than standard settings. And, regardless, there is plenty of empty space around the map everywhere, the AI just didn't feel like expanding. Once everyone hit the Renaissance they started to fill in the gaps but no civ founded more than 3 (one civ had 4 cities) cities until then.
I actually went with a 4 city Tradition start, not founding a 5th city until T145 or so. At this point in the game I have an enormous 10-11 city empire, but that's only because there was plenty of empty space around me to expand to in the Renaissance and I conquered a few cities.
I kept the combat buffs at their defaults in this run. Regardless, I think a major issue is the AI is incredibly slow to upgrade troops. The reason Wu's T100-110 invasion was crappy was because she threw warriors at me. I was later able to slice through Alex and Pacal because they had Swordsman and Comp Bows everywhere as they entered the Industrial Era. Maybe the fact that this is a low sea level Pangaea affects it, but I noticed the AI was horribly slow to generate gold.
I'd also like to note my experience here with the AI declaring war before it's ready to actually attack reminded me of when I played with the Community Patch. I know that project also increases the chance of the AI declaring war (I once got a dual DoW on T30!), and with some of the earlier wars I never saw a single unit actually try to invade me. Perhaps it's an underlying issue with the AI code or something?
I will work my way up to Deity, I just wanted to see how this felt on this level first, especially with the tech buffs to the AI. I think I also just wanted to have a bit of a wonder-fest because it had been way too long
I actually went with a 4 city Tradition start, not founding a 5th city until T145 or so. At this point in the game I have an enormous 10-11 city empire, but that's only because there was plenty of empty space around me to expand to in the Renaissance and I conquered a few cities.
I kept the combat buffs at their defaults in this run. Regardless, I think a major issue is the AI is incredibly slow to upgrade troops. The reason Wu's T100-110 invasion was crappy was because she threw warriors at me. I was later able to slice through Alex and Pacal because they had Swordsman and Comp Bows everywhere as they entered the Industrial Era. Maybe the fact that this is a low sea level Pangaea affects it, but I noticed the AI was horribly slow to generate gold.
I'd also like to note my experience here with the AI declaring war before it's ready to actually attack reminded me of when I played with the Community Patch. I know that project also increases the chance of the AI declaring war (I once got a dual DoW on T30!), and with some of the earlier wars I never saw a single unit actually try to invade me. Perhaps it's an underlying issue with the AI code or something?
I will work my way up to Deity, I just wanted to see how this felt on this level first, especially with the tech buffs to the AI. I think I also just wanted to have a bit of a wonder-fest because it had been way too long
glider1
Deity
Thanks Joosegoose
The reason the AI was slow to upgrade was because you had outpaced it in land area and thus turned off the adaptive buff system. The adaptive buff was being applied to the AI, but only during the period where the AI was competitive with you in land.
Likewise, the tech funnel also turns off if you have significantly outpaced the AI in land area.
The adaptive buff systems turn on, but at some point they cannot supply buff to the AI if it is just too weak. The buffing yield numbers would be stupendously high.
The AIs expansion depends on its assessment of happiness and threat level. If the map is crowded and happiness is not readily available, the AI is reluctant to expand. If I had the intelligence of the AI, I would probably also be reluctant
Like I said, in my own emperor pangaea game, the AI was at 11 cities and I was at 3 cities at turn 150.
Yes there is an underlying issue with the code when it comes to war declaration. Firaxis decided to cancel the code that allows for an early sneak attack. The only attack code the AI has is a few variants of a general army attack. It does not have any specific raiding code in it. Firaxis tried but they gave up (I can see where they tried).
So in this mod, in the early ages (and sometimes later) the AI cannot attack with an army until it has built up that army (the code assumes the army and appropriate techs are going to be there at the beginning of the game). So it still DOWS. That can still be a problem to you if it means that your trade routes and deals are cancelled.
EDIT:
I'm going to start experimenting with pangaea playing with a rapid wide start and see what I can do.
The reason the AI was slow to upgrade was because you had outpaced it in land area and thus turned off the adaptive buff system. The adaptive buff was being applied to the AI, but only during the period where the AI was competitive with you in land.
Likewise, the tech funnel also turns off if you have significantly outpaced the AI in land area.
The adaptive buff systems turn on, but at some point they cannot supply buff to the AI if it is just too weak. The buffing yield numbers would be stupendously high.
The AIs expansion depends on its assessment of happiness and threat level. If the map is crowded and happiness is not readily available, the AI is reluctant to expand. If I had the intelligence of the AI, I would probably also be reluctant
Like I said, in my own emperor pangaea game, the AI was at 11 cities and I was at 3 cities at turn 150.
Yes there is an underlying issue with the code when it comes to war declaration. Firaxis decided to cancel the code that allows for an early sneak attack. The only attack code the AI has is a few variants of a general army attack. It does not have any specific raiding code in it. Firaxis tried but they gave up (I can see where they tried).
So in this mod, in the early ages (and sometimes later) the AI cannot attack with an army until it has built up that army (the code assumes the army and appropriate techs are going to be there at the beginning of the game). So it still DOWS. That can still be a problem to you if it means that your trade routes and deals are cancelled.
EDIT:
I'm going to start experimenting with pangaea playing with a rapid wide start and see what I can do.
glider1
Deity
I just started a standard/emperor pangaea game with Egypt.
I kid you not that my start has consisted of:
6 x truffles in an area 20x10 bounded by coast.
1 x copper in hills that have no food or river.
I cannot connect all but 1 or 2 truffles until I have already expanded.
On the other hand,
Poland is 12 tiles away and has access to:
1 x gold
3 x salt
1 x marble
1 x truffle
in an area of 10x10 around his capital.
he has no immediate neighbours and has plenty of territory to expand to 6 or more cities. He doesn't need to trade truffles with me to expand.
It looks like it is back to the drawing board on how to help the AI when the map generator is capable of generating extremes like that. Imagine I were playing Poland? Suddenly the game would be a piece of cake....
That is why Firaxis balance it the way they do. They give the AI a big boost at the start plus some ongoing boost, and hope that it is good enough to handle the player plus the luck of the map generator. Crude but simple.
EDIT:
I think I might look into an alternative way off buffing the AI yet again.
This time, dynamically alter the per-era-bonus the AI gets, rather than the city yield itself.
Back to the drawing board?
I kid you not that my start has consisted of:6 x truffles in an area 20x10 bounded by coast.
1 x copper in hills that have no food or river.
I cannot connect all but 1 or 2 truffles until I have already expanded.
On the other hand,
Poland is 12 tiles away and has access to:
1 x gold
3 x salt
1 x marble
1 x truffle
in an area of 10x10 around his capital.
he has no immediate neighbours and has plenty of territory to expand to 6 or more cities. He doesn't need to trade truffles with me to expand.
It looks like it is back to the drawing board on how to help the AI when the map generator is capable of generating extremes like that. Imagine I were playing Poland? Suddenly the game would be a piece of cake....
That is why Firaxis balance it the way they do. They give the AI a big boost at the start plus some ongoing boost, and hope that it is good enough to handle the player plus the luck of the map generator. Crude but simple.
EDIT:
I think I might look into an alternative way off buffing the AI yet again.
This time, dynamically alter the per-era-bonus the AI gets, rather than the city yield itself.
Back to the drawing board?
On the other hand,
Poland is 12 tiles away and has access to:
1 x gold
3 x salt
1 x marble
1 x truffle
in an area of 10x10 around his capital.
he has no immediate neighbours and has plenty of territory to expand to 6 or more cities. He doesn't need to trade truffles with me to expand.
Yes, diversity of resources would match how fast the AI is willing and able to found in my games, and it's not map type dependent, but RNG of the map script generator. This is also in the base game. As the human I know exactly how to play a low diversity resource happiness start. (It's in fact one of the things that Tradition is better at.) The AI though has to wait for happiness buildings to be constructed.
This is mostly because the AI is slow to connect SPARE copies of luxaries, so a real solution would have to be at that level. We know that that it's really good about getting the first copy so basically the C++ change could be to remove whatever if/else logic there is about is that luxury type already connected and just always treat it when setting work priorities as if it doesn't have any connected.
The other possible thing to look at would be the LUA script level that generates these map scripts and try to find out why in some map regions it places 3 or 4 unique luxury types and in others it doesn't place any.
I have the feeling that part of AI Maya's problems is that very few luxury types are allowed to be in Jungle (in addition to how long it takes to clear the jungle to get to the resources.)
For a short term XML fix, I'm seeing a couple of possibilities:
1. For the Circus, remove all resource requirements but add 1 gold maintenance. This building (and Stone Works) is currently the only ancient era building available that gives happiness bonuses.
OR
2. Move the Colosseum up from the Classical era to one of the Ancient Era techs. But which one?
(Both would be overkill and so to be avoided)
I'm more inclined towards the first solution on making Circuses available everywhere (but with a 1 GPT maintenance cost) as a stop gap measure until it can be taught to speed up spare luxury connections.
Edit:Turn 215 Beginning of the modern era update:
Major events during the Industrial era
The French & Mayan war is now over. It doesn't appear any cities exchanged hands, but pre-war France colonized the NE part of the Mayan home land mass (from city name).
Mayas caught up with the rest in the world in science.
Austria married their two city state allies. With one of them being the only city state that started within 2 hexes of AL, that's somewhat annoying. Austria & France are now at war, but no cities have changed hands. They also have the most culture for me to overcome.
England & Mongols are still at war, no additional cities have changed hands.
Portugal has allied itself with almost all remaining city states (could be after a diplomatic victory.) While Austria continues to host for now, Portugal is almost a shoe in to take control of the world council when it expands its infrastructure.
England built both PT & the Louvre.
The Netherlands piety start continues to keep their cities claimed land tiles far behind that of those picking either Tradition or Liberty.
I was first to modern era via Oxford Radio but I suspect the AIs will join me very quickly. Things are still looking good for my planned cultural victory. However, it's looking unlikely that I'll be able to propose anything during the 3rd regular council.
Me: 45 techs. Land score 63. #1 population & approval
Austria: 48 techs. Land score 88. #1 in everything else
Portugal: 46 techs. Land score 47.
Netherlands: 44 techs. Land score 29. Worst GNP & troops
Maya: 45 techs. Land score 23. Worst population & crops
France: 46 techs. Land score 53.
Mongolia: 44 techs. Land score 28. Worst in everything else
England: 48 techs. Land score 61
Edit:Turn 243 Beginning of the atomic era update:
During the modern era, the world divided into two games, Order vs Freedom. (No one picked Autocracy) Lots of ideological wars and those not in actual wars with different ideologies have denounced each other.
Austria captured Mongolia's western city on their home landmass.
I started the era by using a faith based GE to rush Effiel Tower.
Austria built Statue of Liberty before I reached the tech.
England build Broadway before I could find a good time to start it.
Me: 57 techs. Atomic Era 65 land area. #1 population & approval. Freedom +34 happiness
Austria: 60 techs. Atomic Era 106 land area. #1 in every other category. Freedom +11 happiness
Portugal: 58 techs. Modern Era 51 land area. Order with Civil Resistance. +22 happiness
Netherlands: 56 techs. Modern Era 31 land area. Freedom +21 happiness
Maya: 57 techs. Modern Era 27 land area. Worst population & crops. Freedom +15 happiness
France: 57 techs. Modern Era 59 land area. Order with Civil Resistance. +3 happiness
Mongolia: 55 techs. Modern Era 23 land area. Worst in the rest. Order with Civil Resistance. +16 happiness
England: 58 techs. Modern Era 81 land area. Worst approval. Order with Civil Resistance. -4 happiness
I'm influential over 3 of 7, still looking good for my cultural victory but it may be a race to complete this before someone (most likely Austria) builds the spaceship.
Atomic Era newsflashes
On Turn 247 Austria captured the Mongolian capital on their turn while Portugal captured the Mayan capital on theirs. Both of the civs who lost their capital are down to 1 city, Mongolia is in fact completely off its starting landmass.
World Ideology of Freedom passed, upgrading all resistance to Order ideology civs from Civil Resistance to Revoluntary Wave.
England promptly revolted to Freedom.
On Turn 255 Portugal captured Mayas last city, eliminating the Mayas from the game. This cancelled an RA that I had signed prior to that war breaking out that was going to come due in 5 turns.
I'm now influential over 2 of 6.
On Turn 266 France & Mongolia DOWed me. This actually preempted my planned Netherlands + mine attack on France by a few turns. (The Netherlands would still follow thru and DOW France on the original planned turn)
On Turn 267 Portugal DOWed me.
On Turn 270, England captured the last Mongolia city, this is the second major to be wiped out in the game. I'm now influential over 1 of 5 civs.
Portugal's fleet started arriving this turn. Hey, your force wasn't supposed to come from that direction. I issue an emergency recall of my forces attacking France to defend my homeland.
Turn 272 Beginning of Information Era status. I entered it via the standard one allowing National Vistor Center when seeking Cultural victory.
Austria completed the Great Firewall, but that's no big deal since they've adopted Freedom. If it had been Portugal, that would have been a problem to my victory.
The Olympics project just started. Hopefully Portugal doesn't boycott them when they start.
I'm now actually dead last in number of techs, but this doesn't really matter for my victory since I'm only one tech away from the Internet. This does however mean my Privateers are quite a bit outdated.
Austria has made significant progress in the war against Austria. A minor problem for them is that they've now taken the easy ones via sea. Going by sea they'd actually have to target the one furthest away from them and come in that way. (Paris is behind a deep cove, protected by another city in that direction, in turn protected by an city on an island.)
It may be easier for them to expand by land to take Paris even with the rough terrain.
Egypt: 59 techs. land area 68. #1 pop & approval. Last in science. Freedom +30
Austria: 63 techs. land area 136. #1 in everything else. Freedom +14
Portugal: 62 techs. land area 71. Worst approval. Order with civil resistance -2
Netherlands: 61 techs. land area 36. Worst pop, crops, man goods, and land. Freedom +34
France: 62 techs. land area 44. Worst GNP & troops. Order with Revolutionary Wave +8.
England: 64 techs. land area 98. #1 science
Current time to victory is still infinity, but will get much better once the Olympics start and Internet is completed.
These ongoing ideological wars may give me more time to win by culture prior to spaceship launch than the AI tech progress suggests by diverting the AIs energies into these wars.
Edit: Information Era update (thru end of the French war)
I indeed started hosted the World Games.
Austria captured the French city west of the French capital.
It took a few turns, but I drove off Portugal's invasion force. It was under strength, but Portugal is at war with other civs at the same time (and so was I)
I inflicted enough damage to the French island city that once they were willing to talk, he ceded the city to me for peace.
I have a Great Musician with naval escorts now on the way to Portugal, who are the only civ I'm not yet influential over.
Edit: And the end of the game update
Turn 295: Austria captures Paris and signs a peace treaty. (Effectively forcing France into an involuntary peace treaty.
Turn 297: Portugal will finally talk. Straight peace signed.
Turn 299: I become influential over Portugal and win.
Most advanced AIs towards science victory built 2 parts.
glider1
Deity
Good suggestions thanks Joncnunn
I'm going to take a couple of weeks break while I have exams coming up. It'll give me time to think about the direction I go from here with this buffing concept.
Changes:
EDIT:
If this beta works out ok, I'll replace it with the official release which is still at version #15. Please let me know!
I'm going to take a couple of weeks break while I have exams coming up. It'll give me time to think about the direction I go from here with this buffing concept.
Changes:
- Back to population as the adaptive buff criterion
- Fixed a bug in the trade route buff calculation as per #12
- Combat bonus only applies to AI majors (thanks Joncnunn)
- City state tech diffusion increased from 40% to 65% (thanks Joncnunn)
EDIT:
If this beta works out ok, I'll replace it with the official release which is still at version #15. Please let me know!
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