Builders, plz help w/suggestions

[Ecofarm]

I am playing on small pangea/normal speed/monarch (having found my "recovery phase" lacking in recent emporer games). I don't mean to offend anyone, but I find space races terribly boring and know nothing of diplomatic victories. I am going for a conquest/domination victory. I rushed Egypt with nums and was stunningly successful.

Despite keeping several cities (I had only built 2 of my own prior to the war), my economy seems in good shape.

I traded Alphabet for IW and Poly.

I took Shaka's religion because I was in no condition to cause problems and can switch back to no-religion in a few turns - besides, I've captured the founding city. Is this ok or should I have told him no because I intend to win by conquest/domination and I don't want enemies until I'm ready again for war? Should I keep a religion, go OR, and/or use it to my dilpomatic advantage (perhaps not Shaka's religion)?

Here is where my difficulties begin:

1) Two extra nums are building in my original cities because my army was thin and quite damaged by the war-in-progress, and I wanted to be sure that a couple of reinforcements could arrive if things got ugly. Should I abandon these or allow them to complete? I have a feeling that I will need every future hammer for "recovery".

2) How should/can I ensure tech parity (until the next war at least, cats)? Research for trade purposes? Keep in mind that I will need cats asap.

3) I have no GPP generating yet (researching HBR and whipping troops for war took all available efforts)! In which cities, and how should I get GPP started? As I now have both marble and stone (thank you, Egypt), which wonders would you recommend - in what cities, and chop?

4) How should I specialize cities (and which ones).

I realize that things look great at this point; but, I seem to find myself building almost every building in most cities (partly because techs allow few options outside of troops) - failing to generate GPP, and falling behind in techs ALOT lately.

I havent even begun my cottage spam!

If anyone would take a minute to look at the save, and give some recommendations as to how to "recover", specialize cities, build GPP (perhaps also how to use those great people), and maintain tech parity (through trades?) I would much appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,

Eco

It seems the upload didnt work. I'm new to this. I'll try again.

 

[Ecofarm]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/112297/Ecofarm_BC-0600.CivWarlordsSave

I hope I managed to attach properly this time.

Thanks to Mercenary82 for getting me this far in the process.

It seems to work after I save it from this post now. Can anyone confirm this? Sorry for n00bish difficulties (I dare not make the attachment look better, if it's working now)..

Thanks again

 

[Mercenary82]

After uploading, you need to copy and paste it as a link in your post, use the insert link button to do this.

 

[mrchadt]

I had a look at your save, not so much with the intention of giving advice, as I am a monarch (trying emperor) player myself, but to see how you play it. I do things very differently to you. Here's what I would try to do, grow cities bigger ,build granaries first, before making workers, not possible in all cases as you need workers to work the land. Only make barracks and troops in the best 2 production cities.
I noticed you had whipped your 2 original cities into severe unhappiness, I would have mined hills before doing this and grown the capital bigger. Maybe this wasn't possible as you would have missed the window for your early attack. I can't remember if you had granaries, this is a building I like as it replaces whipped population and grows cities a lot quicker. I'm not sure when you plan your next war here, perhaps when you have calvalry or grenediers. So not too much rush to build up an army. Maybe make cheaper archers for the time being.
This is just how I would do things differently, possibly not better.

 

[Galileo44]

My suggestion is on emperor not to be concerned about losing the tech race early if you have land and cities. You will blow past the AI with a developed cottage spam or a well-executed SE. (I prefer cottages) As an example, here is the GNP graph from a recent gam eof mine on Immortal:

Even though I wasn't playing military, on this high a level you fall behind anyway. However, I warred once with Monty, and got some nice cities. Then the cottages came online (rather late) and with emancipation, my graph took off. However, in your situation, emancipation is still far off. However the same principles apply, the cottages will eventually pay off bigtime, although not quite as quickly. Just remember as you sit 10 techs back that you will be the one ahead in a couple centuries. Once you have that lead around rifling-assembly line, draft/whip/buy/build all your favorite units (mostly seige and later tanks).

 

[Mercenary82]

I noticed you built Utica 1 tile from the coast, I see no reason why you would want to do this as Carthage, they have an excellent UB that can only be built on the coast. I would have built Utica 1 tile NW from where you built it at.

Other than that I can' help you much since I play Carthage completely differently than you do. I tend to be peaceful as Carthage, and focus on wonders such as Temple of Artemis, Great Lighthouse and, the Colossus. I focus on the techs needed for these wonders, then I rush to currency, alphabet, compass, then CoL. This means I end up skipping the Great Library and also get numidian cavalry rather late though.

 

[Ecofarm]

I find that nums make decent rush units, because even a spear can be killed by a flanking num followed by a shock num, without casuality. In this case, Egypt didnt have metal hooked up; thus, I was able to forego the stables and finish him at the rather early date of 600bc.

As to placement of Utica, I needed to share the pigs and oasis with the capital in order to accomplish the whipping required to conquer 4 egyption cities quickly. Needing to research HBR gave time for barracks and for both cities to grow to whipable size. Additionally, sharing those tiles will allow Utica to work 2 plain-hills, the iron in desert, and a grass-hill (with the addition of a farm or 2 near the lake). It can be a real production powerhouse. Of course, this has crippled my capital, but the palace will need to be moved (Memphis or Thebes?) given the geography of my newly acquired empire anyway.

This leads to figuring the rest of my specialization and I think (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Carthage could serve as a secondary science city (when I'm in SE mode), with the fish, a couple of farms, and occasionally borrowing a pigs from Utica (while Utica starves working mines or simply prduces less hammers during SE).

Memphis also looks like a production powerhouse - thus, capital worthy (while being in the middle of my empire).

Heliopolis will serve as my primary SE city - With clams, fish, corn (later irrigated) and a grass-farm.

Thebes will be a production powerhouse, able to work 3 hill-plain and 2 marble-plain. Maybe this should get the palace, despite not being in the middle of the empire but also considering future conquests will be to my north?

Elephantine will be a decent production city: plain-cow, a couple plain-hill, and many grass-hill. However, it lacks the food to work much of this. I probably should have razed it and built my own city in the area (though I don't see where would be much better - any suggestions, despite it being too late at this point, would be appreciated.

I need to place a city at the eastern end of my territory, and probably also
near the peaks in the SW section of my territory. I haven't yet figured how those cities will fit into city specialization or where exactly they will go (suggestions please?).

I will build granaries to boost population, as suggested - I probably haven't made sufficient use of them in the past (prewar builds were barracks then nums only for this situation). Should they go in all cities, or only the ones likely to feel the whip?

Thanks for the advice on cottages + emancipation. I will try counting on this boost and not despairing in the years approaching democracy. Cottage spam will begin immeadiatly.

I will try to make use of my UB, but it's hard to place priority on researching compass or building harbors with a small map + warmonger plan (there will be little trade and happy, not health, is usually my limiting factor on monarch). Especially when unhealthy faces help control population growth in a city angered by emergency/war whiping and hammers aren't needed for units or peacefull builds for awhile. I should probably figure out how to aim for techs that allow more useful peaceful builds, and control population more productivly than relying on slow population growth. The problem is getting those peaceful build techs and keeping my army on the cutting edge of technology.

I go to war as soon as my economy is stable and catapaults are built. "Hey hey, ho ho, India has got ta go!"

Thanks for the advice guys! I very much look forward to a little more, especially in regard to possible wonders and other peaceful builds.

PS. Thanks goes to "The Immortal Challenge" for teaching me how to structure/make use of a suggestion based thread. I read it all, and will be doing so with the new one as well.

 

[Galileo44]

I will say that it seems that despite a military focus you have ignored commerce too much. A normal game has 3:1 commerce to production cities. A domination or conquest game has at least a 1:1 ratio. You have a 2:3 ratio. That indicates to me that you need more science cities or you will fall too far behind, especially on Emperor.

 

[Ray Patterson]

Then the cottages came online (rather late) and with emancipation, my graph took off. However, in your situation, emancipation is still far off. However the same principles apply, the cottages will eventually pay off bigtime, although not quite as quickly. Just remember as you sit 10 techs back that you will be the one ahead in a couple centuries.

Is this with the smarter AI (Blake's, but incorporated by Firaxis) patch? Because Wang Kon can be a scary cottage-spammer himself now, and if you lose him in the mid-game I don't see any stopping him later. Mind you, I only play Monarch or lower, I understand that at Immortal you will stay behind for a long time, but I don't see cottage spam and emancipation by themselves catching up; the AI knows that trick now. But we're talking cottage spam and conquest, so that's different, as the AI still has no clue on expansive war.

edit: never mind, I see you wrote "if you have land", thus already implying conquest.

 

[Ecofarm]

So far, I haven't had much choice. I built one commerce city (the cap) and one production. Then rushed as early as researching HBR would allow (horses in my cap's BFC). The other 4 cities I took. I got IW via alphabet while building the nums and chose to chop 4 more nums instead of hooking up the mine. The extra time to hook up the mine and then whip would have meant that Egypt would certainly have his mine up and my early num power would be diminished - I would have to heal after each city even with supplemental metal units (supplemetal units?

Fortunately, there is room for at least 2 more cities within my current territory. Thanks to you, I now know to make them commerce cities.

Thanks again for the advice - it will be put to good use (as soon as I can figure out the best locations)

I have the latest update. I will think about Wang. It may be easier to deal with him now and India later... I'll need to keep open borders with India and would have to raze all of Wang's cities, as he is not my new neighbor (I can see one Korean cultural border and it seems he is on the other side of India). Hmmm. I have open borders with Shaka and share his religion, I could send over a few missionaries and gaurentee his help vs Wang later...


PS. I haven't continued yet. I want to take a couple days to gather advice, have a resounding victory, and go back to Emporer level with greater competance. In the meantime, MP and carefully considering this game is fun.

 

[cabert]

I didn't open the save, but since I don't intend to do it, I thought I could give my opinion nonetheless.

2 facts:
- you're on a pangea
- you're looking forward to conquest or domination
So you don't need anymore techs, really

Build numidian cavalries as fast as possible (including chopping every tree and whipping every population point), keep only marvelous cities (or forest heavy cities ), go to war against all non shaka civs in sight. Keep shaka for later, you can use him to tech trade a bit + his UU his deadly for HA.

4 numidian cavalries can kill 1 or 2 LB .
Use barracks + stables in your "core cities", and just plain numbers for everything else.
If you manage to tech up to feudalism, vassalize your enemies asap.

 

[Ecofarm]

A num hitting a city without combat promotions is a 4.5 (-10% for city attack). With combat 2, the num is a 5.5. Nums (horses for that matter, I think) cannot get cover. A longbow in a city is a 9 (6 + 50%), without culture, promotions, or a hill - he could easily be a 12 with those modifiers and nums are not immune to first strikes. There's a very good chance the num does no damage to LB in city. Cats, then keel all!

 

[OscarWildebeest]

I rushed Egypt with nums and was stunningly successful.

I initially read this as "I rushed Egypt with nuns."

I'm a bit tired.

 

[Ecofarm]

That made me laugh. Thanks, Oscar.

I plan to rush Shaka with Rabbis.

 

[cabert]

That made me laugh. Thanks, Oscar.

I plan to rush Shaka with Rabbis.

Could work. A kippa first strike can be deadly

 

[Priah]

Wow so many plains everywhere, pretty awful starting location you got to work with. Utica and Elephantine are built in pretty bad locations as well. Its pretty early at 600 bc, so that is a pretty impressive time to kill your first neighbor. Id recommend getting swordsmen asap, and going off to kill asoka. The Indians are pretty pathetic in terms of military, so it wont take much to kill them off this early.