Building Workers/Settlers in Early Game

[OneThingIKnow]

I'm curious about a strategy that has been milling around in my head for a while, and I wanted some opinions on it. It may be a commonly used strategy that everyone knows, but I haven't seen any documentation about it around here, so bear with me, even if I'm stating obvious ideas.

I tend to play on monarch with huge maps at marathon speed, so this might affect the usefulness of what I am about to say...

Anyways, Imagine I'm starting in a thick forest, using a leader that starts with Mining. I could tech Bronze Working first, despite the needs for food techs, and build a worker while BW is finishing. Once I have the worker and the tech, I would start chopping. Switch to whatever tech makes the most sense next. I want another worker, but why not build something that allows my city to grow, like a warrior , scout, or a barracks? I could, if I so desired, change my production back to a worker as the chopping completes, giving me half the hammers for the worker in one turn of zero growth (60/120 on marathon speed). Next turn, I would resume building the warrior or whatever it was, and start chopping another forest. When that one completes, I switch back to building the worker for one more turn, finishing it, all the while having gained a significant amount of growth in my city.

If my next target was a settler, I could do the same thing. Although it would take five chops to complete (60/300), it would be nearly as fast using both workers. This means I couldn't improve other tiles for the city, (or if I did, the whole process would be slower) which would limit the growth I could receive, but I'd also get the benefit of building other units while building the basic necessary early game units. It also likely means I'd have less forest to chop for other things later, like a nice shiny wonder or a stack of units for a rush.

What do you think? Is this "Strategy 101" type stuff? Is this a good idea? Bad idea?

 

[lymond]

Well, not sure I follow your train of thought exactly or how effective it is on marathon, since I virtually never play that speed. However, I do basically what you are saying all the time. I let my city grow and then switch to the worker or settler the turn of the chop so the hammers go into it. Depending on the amount of turns left I may continue building the worker/settler until it finishes. I do think letting the city grow on something during the chopping is effective for food based units. I think it depends a little on the balance of how soon you want those units. Workers are very important on Marathon IMO and I like having a lot of them to double up on improvements since they take ages at that speed.

I don't worry too much about using forests to get out workers/settlers instead of wonders. I do try to save some forests for health mainly early and then use those later on wonders and stuff when I have more health.

 

[vicawoo]

Chopping averages out to 4 hammers per turn. If you improve a pig, you increase your tile yield by 3, only permanently.

Second, what's the point of growing, when you end up working an unimproved tile?
It's useful when you can grow to an improved tile while also having extra worker turns to chop and improve, and you're somehow encouraged to delay your settler.

Of course marathon workers are half priced, so things get skewed. Also you don't want to chop warriors on marathon, while on other speeds it's acceptable.

 

[coanda]

Interesting idea. Just thinking out loud here in response. Suppose you have a city (not plains/hill) with say a supercorn resource and a plains/cow as the first two resources you're going to want to develop.

Here's some simple opening build orders...
Option 1: Worker - Warrior (build) / worker (chop chop)
Option 2: Worker - worker (chop) - warrior (chop)
Option 3: Worker - worker (chop) - warrior (chop after farm)

By the end of turn 57 (before hitting enter; game starts at turn 0), this should be what you have with each of those approaches:
Option 1: 2x worker, warrior. Size-2 city; farm on supercorn. 1 spare worker-turn. 4 spare hammers towards your next production, 6 food in silo.
Option 2: 2x worker, warrior. Size-1 city; farm on supercorn. 6 spare worker-turns. 4 spare hammers towards your next production; 36 food in silo.
Option 3: 2x worker, warrior. Size-1 city; farm on supercorn. 3 spare worker-turns. 42 spare hammers, 57 food in silo.

Of these all, I'm most inclined to favor option 3. It gains you 3 worker-turns, which means you'll be getting improvements online 3 turns sooner than you would otherwise... which helps over time. It gives you a bunch of extra production - enough to build a second warrior if you wanted to... or, more likely, work on barracks or dump a bunch of hammers into a settler, waste 2 turns building warrior or 'rax, then switch back to settler once you hit size 2 for a fast second city. And it only costs you 15 food vs. option 1, which is 2 turns behind in growth.

So basically what I'm seeing is that chopping to speed workers is worthwhile, but unless you're rushing you generally don't want to chop other stuff out until after you've improved your resource tiles (particularly food resource tiles). The problem with alternative warrior/worker is that you get the worker later and spend more time initially with your first worker chopping when he should be farming.

Note that this is just one specific starting setup (supercorn / plains cow / non-plains-hill-city / 2+ forest) and one game speed (marathon), so it's hardly conclusive.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Anyways, Imagine I'm starting in a thick forest, using a leader that starts with Mining. I could tech Bronze Working first, despite the needs for food techs, and build a worker while BW is finishing.

No promises about Marathon, but at normal speed Warrior / Worker (whip) is often a little stronger.

If my next target was a settler, I could do the same thing. Although it would take five chops to complete (60/300), it would be nearly as fast using both workers. This means I couldn't improve other tiles for the city, (or if I did, the whole process would be slower) which would limit the growth I could receive, but I'd also get the benefit of building other units while building the basic necessary early game units.

The main problem I have with this idea is that the other units aren't particularly high leverage yet.

That said, Worker/Worker/Settler was fairly popular back in the day.

 

[OneThingIKnow]

I'm running a test of this, using a few different opening strategies. Settings include monarch difficulty, huge fractal map, ancient start, marathon speed, and Hannibal of Carthage as leader.

I settle in place and start building worker 1. I tech Bronze Working first, but since worker 1 will have nothing to do, I work the lake first to more closely align the build times of worker 1 and the BW tech (40 turns for worker, 42 turns for BW). For this test, I will keep the warrior at home in order to limit potential deviations. As soon as the borders expand, I switch Carthage to working the oasis tile, allowing worker 1 to finish faster without sacrificing research. Once worker 1 finishes on turn 34, my options diverge. He's some different strategies and their outcomes...

For the first test I began work on warrior 1 so my city could grow, and moved worker 1 to a nearby forest tile to wait for BW to finish.

Turn 42: BW finishes, begin researching Agriculture. Start chopping forest.
Turn 50: Switch production to worker 2, complete first chop. Worker 2 is now 50% finished.
Turn 51: Switch production back to warrior 1, move worker 1 to next forest.
Turn 52: Start chopping forest.
Turn 57: Carthage grows to size 2. Work the oasis and lake for maximum research.
Turn 60: Switch production back to worker 2, complete second chop.
Turn 61: Worker 2 finishes. Move both workers to separate forest spaces.
Turn 62: Warrior 1 finishes, begin production of warrior 2. Warrior 1 garrison in Carthage. Both workers start chopping.
Turn 64: AG finishes, begin researching Hunting.
Turn 70: Switch production to settler 1, complete both chops. Settler 1 is now 40% finished.
Turn 71: Switch production back to warrior 2. Move both workers to separate forests.
Turn 72: Both workers start chopping.
Turn 77: Hunting finishes, begin researching Animal Husbandry.
Turn 80: Switch production back to settler 1, complete both chops. Settler 1 is now 80% finished.
Turn 81: Switch production back to warrior 2. Move both workers to separate forests.
Turn 82: Both workers start chopping.
Turn 84: Carthage grows to size 3. Work the oasis, lake, and sheep for maximum growth/research.
Turn 89: Warrior 2 finishes, begin production of warrior 3. Warrior 2 garrison in Carthage.
Turn 90: Switch production back to settler 1, complete both chops.
Turn 91: Settler 1 finishes.

Through 91 turns using this method, I produced 1 settler, 2 warriors, and 2 workers, and I had 1 hammer on a 3rd warrior, with 73 overflow hammers. I researched BW, AG, and Hunting, and I had 327/516 on AH. Carthage grew to size 3, and I had 24/78 towards size 4. I had no improved tiles, and I chopped 8 spaces.

For my second test, I tried chopping out a third worker before the settler. In the same 91 turns this yielded me an extra worker and moved 4 hammers from overflow to warrior 3, while costing me two forest spaces. Everything else came out the same.

The third test was a bit of a hybrid. I researched BW first followed by AG, and chopped out the 2nd worker in the same way. Instead of using worker 2 to chop though, he improved the wheat as soon as he was able. He returned to chopping after he was finished farming the wheat, and Carthage worked the wheat and oasis. Worker 1 continued to chop out worker 3, and all 3 of them proceeded to work on chopping out the settler, although it was still 4 turns away from completion at the end of the test.

Besides the late settler, this method was also 50 beakers short of methods 1 and 2, and although Carthage did reach size 3, is was only 3/78 towards size 4. On the other hand, I got all three workers chopped using only 6 forests, still got both warriors, and improved the wheat.

Finally, I tried a more traditional approach. I started researching AG first while I completed a worker, working the sheep city tile until the border pop at which time I worked the oasis. When the worker finished, I began building a warrior to allow growth while I researched BW and improved the wheat, followed by putting a farm on the sheep. When a second worker was timed correctly with the completion of BW, I switched to a worker. Both workers then chopped out a settler (several turns earlier than the other methods, I might mention) and a 2nd warrior by the end of the 91 turns. Carthage grew to size 2 in the process, working the wheat and the sheep farm.

Through 91 turns using this method, I produced 1 settler, 2 warriors, and 2 workers, and I had 57 hammers on a 3rd worker, with 0 overflow hammers. I researched AG, BW, and Hunting, and I had 122/516 on AH. Carthage grew to size 2, and I had 29/78 towards size 3. I improved the wheat and the sheep (farm), and had 2/12 turns completed towards a camp on an ivory tile, and 3/9 turns completed on a forest chop. I chopped 4 spaces.

So it sounds like the results from methods 1, 2, and 3 provide varying small boosts in research, potentially an extra worker, and an extra population point in Carthage versus the traditional method. However, this comes at the cost of 2-6 forest spaces, a few/several extra turns to get the settler out, and improvement of 1-2 resource spaces.

So... is it worth it to use any of the first 3 methods when compared to the more traditional route? Included are the start save, and the result saves for all 4 tests.

 

[DaveMcW]

Improving resource tiles > Chopping

 

[vicawoo]

A few notes: you have to actually settle your settler if you get him earlier, since it will also produce food/hammers.
You didn't try:
Capital builds worker
Capital builds 2nd worker, 1st worker farms corn, then chops
Capital builds settler, 1st and second worker chops
and
You didn't try:
Capital builds worker
Capital grows to size 2, 1st worker farms corn, then chops
Capital builds 2nd worker, 1st worker chops
Capital builds settler, 1st and second worker chops, whip settler.

Approach 1:
worker first, grow (farm corn). Build 2nd worker, settler (all chopping).
Approach 2:
worker, worker, always chop.
Approach 3:
Worker, worker aided by chopping, farm corn/grow, building settler with chopping.
Approach 4:
worker first, farm corn, pasture sheep.

You should count total food produced, and food/hammers spent in workers/settlers. And you should check your food/hammers produced per turn at the end.

Edit: crashing trying to get past the first turn in your game, is there a mod.

 

[OneThingIKnow]

DaveMcW - I'm unsure of the long-term effects of what I've tried to do, but I've shown that the difference in the short term is not too lopsided. You get more research, more growth, and possibly more units in exchange for a slightly slower settler, less improved land, and less remaining forests.

vicawoo - I didn't move the settler because that wasn't part of the test, and in three of the results, the settler either was just built that turn, or wasn't built yet. In a real game, I also would have moved the warriors out to explore as well.

You didn't try:
Capital builds worker
Capital builds 2nd worker, 1st worker farms corn, then chops
Capital builds settler, 1st and second worker chops

This is more or less the traditional method I used above. 2 workers will finish before AG and BW finish, so I spent some time in between them building a warrior. Once the wheat and sheep were farmed, I had 4 workable tiles, and didn't feel the need to farm any other tiles, so the extra worker was not needed until I completed BW, which he came out on the same turn anyway.

You didn't try:
Capital builds worker
Capital grows to size 2, 1st worker farms corn, then chops
Capital builds 2nd worker, 1st worker chops
Capital builds settler, 1st and second worker chops, whip settler.

I didn't try whipping the workers or the settler until after I posted my results. That's another possibility. Although with food based units, is it really a good idea to whip them out, since they will cause future food based units to come out more slowly? I'll have to look into this as well.

Edit: crashing trying to get past the first turn in your game, is there a mod.

Help me out here... I'm using BUG mod, as you can see in the screenshot. I also added a new leader/nation/trait in the xml files, but that leader was intentionally left out of this game. No other mods were loaded, and nothing else was changed in the files that I know of. Would either of those issues cause a crash in someone else's system? If so, how would I fix that?

 

[DaveMcW]

Assuming marathon and infinite forests,

Worker costs 120 food/hammers, and repays the investment in 20 turns of chopping.
Wheat costs one chop, and repays the investment in 20 turns (15 with whipping).
Ivory costs 66 food/hammers plus a chop, and repays the investment in 63 turns.
Sheep farm costs 66 food/hammers plus a chop, and repays the investment in 34 turns with whipping.

So you generally do want to chop quickly. But still improve your wheat.

 

[vicawoo]

The problem with chopping vs improving is that improving will give boost your yield/resources forever. So the wheat will recover 60 extra yield over 20 turns, and then over the next 40 turns produce 120, 60 turns 180. Chopping produces a total of 60 hammers over the first chop, a total of 60 in the next 40 turns, a total of 60 in the next 1500 turns.

In terms of workers/settlers (which do tend to increase production permanently), don't think of chopping as producing them, think of it as speeding up their production by n turns. Now think how much you benefit by getting your worker/settler n turns earlier.

If you have a low production city, that chop may speed it up by significantly many turns. But against say a 15 production city, you only save 4 turns, which means a city 3 turns earlier, which might mean 4 extra turns of a pig tile (24 food, 4 hammers).

 

[OneThingIKnow]

It's early, so please tell me I'm wrong and not thinking clearly if I'm way off here...

Worker costs 120 food/hammers, and repays the investment in 20 turns of chopping.
Wheat costs one chop, and repays the investment in 20 turns (15 with whipping).
Ivory costs 66 food/hammers plus a chop, and repays the investment in 63 turns.
Sheep farm costs 66 food/hammers plus a chop, and repays the investment in 34 turns with whipping.

I'm trying hard to understand how a resource tile can cost food/hammers, other than by the resources needed to build a worker and the time needed to build the improvement when the worker could otherwise be chopping. Is that what you mean?

In that case, the wheat costs almost two chops worth of hammers (15 turns), but it also requires a change in research priority, which costs more chop-turns (something like 24 turns total), meaning it's worth it to research AG first and farm the wheat ASAP if it replaces 24 turns of chopping by the end of the scenario. It will take a minimum of 45 turns (30 to build worker, 15 to farm wheat) to prepare, so we're talking about 46*2 increase in food yield (91 turns-45 in prep, 5 Food in improved, irrigated wheat-3 food in the oasis as the alternate choice), or 92 extra food by turn 91 versus not improving the wheat at all in that time. that doesn't even consider the +1 Hammer in the wheat plot versus the +3 Commerce in the oasis plot. However, in those same 24 turns, a worker can chop 144 hammers from the forest at an average of 6 hammers per turn.

In the short term, that means that chopping before improving tiles gets me a greater total yield (Food+Hammers), although obviously since forests are in limited supply, the long-term total will be increased by getting all tiles improved before doing any chopping. The key is finding that golden medium in balancing short-term and long-term gains.

It's interesting to note that, although the chop-first method produces more yield than the improve-first one, the later finished the settler faster. When you consider that the improve first method had more food and less hammers due to less chopping, and yet it only grew to size 2 versus the chop-first method growing to size 3, it makes sense that a higher percentage of resources went into the settler.

In terms of workers/settlers (which do tend to increase production permanently), don't think of chopping as producing them, think of it as speeding up their production by n turns. Now think how much you benefit by getting your worker/settler n turns earlier.

In this case, it seems that by straight chopping the settler actually comes out more slowly. However, as a result, I got more population, more research, and (in some cases) more units, either workers or warriors. So the benefit should be weighed as:

(3-4 lost end-game turns of production by city 2 + worker/production turns required to catch up on improvements + the number of hammers used in the chops that I now can't use on something else) - (production of 1 worked city tile/specialist for the whole game + any potential value from ~100 beakers of research, ie... how many turns earlier I get AH, how many turns earlier I get the next tech, and the next tech, etc... + the value of 1 extra unit, either in worker turns or in military power). Phew.

If that comes out positive, then it's better to use the traditional start. If it's negative, the chop-first start is better.Suffice to say that's a little too complex for me to figure out.

 

[Negator_UK]

I've recently been playing around with a spreadsheet while playing civ, (sad I know, but couldn't help myself... ) and have found myself thinking along the following lines while playing:-

1. Build worker, or occasional workboat if next to fish. Improve capital site.
2. Grow capital, building warriors, workboats, archers, scouts, whatever is available and needed by map, thinking "exploration and defence".
3. At pop 4-5 build settlers, workers and more military garrisons(if needed) under the idea of "expansion".
4. Think....

• Consider new buildings such as libraries as investment if payback time is good (this is what spreadsheet is for, to avoid stupid investments, which they usually are early in the game).
• Consider more defence if barbs or neighbours call for it.
• Consider further expansion (more settlers, workers, garrison troops) if sites available & slider not screwed yet.
• Consider more culture buildings if possibility of being in culture war (not capital) (warning this often leads to real wars !!).
• Consider building research/wealth to reach a tech goal sooner, or if none of the above seem applicable.

I have noticed a slight improvement in my play and only rarely chop except to clear grassland or to locally rush something, or to rush a wonder. However I have yet to win twice in a row at emperor with ragnar despite this latest scientific method though.....

 

[vicawoo]

Assuming dave's numbers are correct (I forget chop turns vs farms on marathon), improve first will be faster for workers/settlers if your target date is ~20 turns after your first worker finishes his first job.

That is, chopping gets you 20, while farm gets you 5 food + 1 hammer - 3 food (best unimproved tile = 2 food + 1 hammer = 3 extra yield per turn.
So 10 turns after the improvement, improve first can net 30 yield, 40 turns after it improve first will net you 120 yield. So naturally we're looking at settler timings, that wheat has accumulated much more yield than that first chop would have, so it's faster.
Note you'll tend to grow first to gain that extra 1 yield from an extra population point. Note growing is also an investment.

Workers, settlers, growing, they're all investments. Note that growing, if you look at the numbers, to unimproved tiles, is a very poor investment. 1 extra yield per turn at the cost of 66 food for size 2, 72 for size 3, and so on, takes 66 turns to recover (over straight building a settler). Of course you can't work a second improved resource if you don't grow...

This is not an easy subject, by the way, and there's a ton of effort which has gone into figuring all this out, so good for you for picking it.

And you say teching agriculture is at the expense of bronze working, but since irrigated farms first are better, it's really the other way around.

 

[Kadazzle]

You also have to consider whipping, and whipping Workers with Expansive and whipping Workers with Imperialistic in this scenario. These all favour improvements over chopping (obviously).