C-X-X-C or C-X-X-X-X-C?

[Pyrrhos]

Pikes? Do we need to start a new thread about this?

By all means do! :ggodjob:

I could just as easily have said warriors-upgraded-to-swordsmen, legionaries or spearmen.

 

[ecuwins]

By all means do!

I could just as easily have said warriors-upgraded-to-swordsmen, legionaries or spearmen.

I would but I don't want to steal any of scoutsout's fire.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/warmongering101.php

 

[MAS]

One important thing in reaction to this, is that most people (or so I would think) easily realize the benefits of loose city placement when they learn the game on easy levels. Then they have already understood that wide spacing has benefits on easy levels. When they move up to emperor or above, it's much harder to discover by own experience, that a tighter placement is more efficient, and they keep playing in the same manner as on easier levels.

But... Even in Lower difficulty levels, you are still better off with tighter placement.

The only difference is that on higher levels, its the difference between losing and winning, and at lower levels, its the difference between pwning the AI and pwning the AI even harder.

 

[chuckiferd]

I am sorry for being a complete and toal newb, but what the heck are you guys talking about? I know it has to do with placement of civilians but I don't grrasp what everyones getting at? And what do X and c represent

 

[Tribute]

Pyrrhos, I think that this time, I'm just going to have to say that CXXXC is the best. (This includes the CXXC diagonal). You can place your cities in a wonderful pattern, and you can work the best tiles for most of the time. Since each city overlaps with 2 tiles per adjacent city (and each city is surrounded by 6 other cities in this hexagonal pattern), each city owns the inner 9 tiles and shares 12 (average 15). Since all of the outer 12 are shared, that means no culture is needed to obtain these shared tiles, eliminating the temple problem.

The military advantage (, which you told us not to mention) does not appear as strongly here. Towns can support each other (in the same turn) on only one of the diagonal axes.

You can pick the best tiles here in the Ancient Age, still share good tiles on the expanded border, and in the Middle Ages, can grow with your approximately 15 tiles. Most cities will reach 12 without excess irrigation (mine green irrigate brown), and with extra irrigation, just about all cities can reach 12 and metro sizes, especially with railroads in the Industrial Era, which allows for those science farms that Pyrrhos mentioned. Border reach is pretty good, but obviously not as good as CXXXXC, which may have unwieldy culture gaps that cannot be closed until well after the ancient age. For this CXXXC, culture can be focused on only border towns, and libraries built as would be considered useful.

This special CXXXC manages to combine most of the best of both the CXXC and CXXXXC worlds.

___-C__
C---_-__
_-____-_
__-____C
___C___

Large chains of this pattern can cover all sorts of places. Minor variations to reach rivers, lakes, coasts, and other optimal sites can (and should) occur.

 

[Tribute]

chuckiferd, C means city, and x means no city, in other words, the blank space between cities. The number of x's indicates how far away each city is being built from each other. CXXC means that there are 2 gaps between cities, implying that every 3 tiles there will be another city.

 

[chuckiferd]

thats easy then

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xxCxxxxCxxxxCxx
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xxCxxxxCxxxxCxx
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should be best since it allows each city to have room for maximum growth, soon after a couple culture improvements you should have filled in all the gaps, problems is you must not let anyone elses citys to get in the way, if they do capture it and raze it to the ground.

 

[ZzarkLinux]

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EDIT:
For clarification, I am only referring to how there are so many downward pressures that keep your cities small...
So having "each tile available" does not mean "each tile is giving you value"

 

[chuckiferd]

never good when I get that..........


Ok I was simply expressing my oppinion

 

[Aabraxan]

thats easy then

CxxCxxCxxCxxCxxC
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CxxCxxCxxCxxCxxC
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CxxCxxCxxCxxCxxC
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CxxCxxCxxCxxCxxC

should be best since it allows each city to have room for maximum growth, soon after a couple culture improvements you should have filled in all the gaps, problems is you must not let anyone elses citys to get in the way, if they do capture it and raze it to the ground.

And that is exactly the debate here: C-X-X-C vs. C-X-X-X-X-C. Just for fun, I've recreated your chart with red C's, just to demonstrate how many more cities you can get in that area, if you went strict C-X-X-C. Unless I have miscounted, I have used exactly the same number of tiles as you did. Admittedly, the diagram above does not take into account all of the tiles needed by the cities on the edges. Nonetheless, I see 6 cities in your diagram and 24 in mine.

Edit: And Zzark, what is that?

 

[chuckiferd]

however you did not include spaces on ALL sides of the cities like I did

Also # of cities doesn't matter all a city is is a base that can havest resources and produce using those resources. If a field has lets say 50 shields, lets leave improvments out for simplification, it doesn't matter how many cities are sucking up those shields as long as all the shields are getting picked up. Ok now lets compare civ A and B

Civ A has 50 shields divided up between 5 cities, thats 10 shields a city and that can pump out most ancient units in 2 turns

So that is 5 units in 2 turns=2.5 units/turn

Civ B has 50 shields divided up between 25 cities, that would be 2 shields a city, that take you 10 turns to build an ancient unit/city

So that is 25 units in 10 turns=2.5 units/turn

So there the same in units a turn but lets say the two civs go to war starting with 0 units:

turns|1|2|3|04|05|06|07|08|09|10|
Civ A:0|5|5|10|10|15|15|20|20|25|
Civ B:0|0|0|00|00|00|00|00|00|25|

well look again there equal but notice the 9 turns where civ A is prepared already, by turn 10 Civ B would have all its land gone

 

[Gosnork]

Move away from your monitor and Zzark's message should be clear.

Chuckiferd you are forgetting that until Sanitation is researched no city can grow beyond size 12, so no city needs more than 12 tiles. The city square always has 2 food, 3 if agri, and tighter placement in certain areas means more shields are actually being produced because slightly less irrigaton is needed. Not to mention all tiles are being worked very early in the game.

 

[chuckiferd]

I was simply looking at raw production power

[Edit=this shows the possibally worked spaces, 12 allotted to each city]
---x----x-----x---
--xxx--xxx---xxx--
xxxCxxxxCxxxxCxxx
--xxx---xxx--xxx--
---x-----x----x---
---x----x----x----
--xxx--xxx---xxx--
xxxCxxxxCxxxxCxxx
--xxx--xxx---xxx--
---x-----x----x--x

 

[Gosnork]

Exactly, CxxC has more raw production power than CxxxxC, simply because EVERY tile is being used, CxxxxC always has excess tiles, even when all cities grow to size 20. CxxxxC means that 8 tiles aren't being used until Sanitation, AND that 4 tiles will never be used. Also, CxxC can support far more units.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Compelling arguments, Tribute! Without having tested it, my gut feeling based on the test I just concluded CXXC v. OCP, is that CXXXC would end up somewhere between those two. You'd still need culture, your worker force would be spread thinner than CXXC but not as thin as OCP etc.

 

[chuckiferd]

but CxxC will eventually lead to fights over workable teritory and ultimatly limits the growth of your city

also we are forgoing two major factors terrain and resources. When you are building in tough terrain you need all the good land you can get eg.) If you are in a mountainous region than you will spread out to find small sections of grassland and hills. Secondly building in a small tight pattern doesn't allow you to get as many bonus and strategic resources. I mostly build on the coastline, or on a river not in a block pattern no matter how far into the game I stick to the sea with a few resouce cities.

Added on top of all that do you truely think that by building more concentrated areas of cities you have more settlers? Absolutely not, for every settler you have another more spread out nation could produce 2 because it doesn't need to fight over mines and mountains

 

[Pyrrhos]

Exactly, CxxC has more raw production power than CxxxxC, simply because EVERY tile is being used,

No, CXXC has less raw production power because it does not have access to as many BGs as OCP. However, distance corruption means that so many are lost that the advantage is almost neutralised. Where CXXC shines is economy and people production, at least that is what I found in my rather elaborate and extensive test.

 

[Gosnork]

How does it have access to fewer BGs? If you take a 8x8 tiles piece of land from CxxxxC and CxxC the CxxC area will be producing more shields. For a given piece of land CxxC out-performs CxxxxC.

Pyrrhos you don't need culture in CxxxC except in border cities, which is the case with all city placement schemes.

Chuckiferd, it will "ultimately" limit growth of CITIES, not of your empire, there is a huge difference. CxxC makes it harder to win the space race, which is really the only empire level drawback.

 

[chuckiferd]

but under a republic corruption is almost negated

 

[Gosnork]

Also Pyrrhos, you can't argue that before sanitation CxxxxC has more production than CxxC. CxxC will be taking advantage of 100% of the tiles in your empire before the industrial age, CxxxxC has to wait until sanitation, and then has to grow to size 20, which takes even more time.