C2C: Mercenaries

[ls612]

What would the team think of introducing Mercenaries to C2C?

Basically, when the player has a city or large army near a barbarian town, or even by an enemy city with a high REV Idx, they could click a 'recruit mercenaries' button and pay an amount of gold to get military units.

The type of these units could be determined by the new culture resources Hydro is planning, the civ that is present, or other factors, while their quality could be set by what military buildings the nearest city has. This would add a large level of realism to all the eras of the game, as Mercs have long played a large part in himan history.

I know that this would mean a lot of work, and would probably be not done until after the V19 freeze, but I wanted to start the discussion now, as this has been an idea of mine for a while.

 

[Erfeo]

If I understand your idea, the biggest feature of this would be that you can get units you otherwise couldn't get. Personally I don't think that's a good idea as it would really screw with the game balance. Why would you get military techs, cultures with UU's, or even strategic resources when you can just hire those units from a neighbour?

I can definitely see value in this if you could do this with barbarian cities and minor civs. But that would only really work if you could somehow have peaceful relations with them (like military city states in CIV5)

 

[ls612]

If I understand your idea, the biggest feature of this would be that you can get units you otherwise couldn't get. Personally I don't think that's a good idea as it would really screw with the game balance. Why would you get military techs, cultures with UU's, or even strategic resources when you can just hire those units from a neighbour?

The reason would be that doing it the mercenary way costs money (gold), ie you can buy mercenaries for gold instead of building them in cities. They would obviously need to be scaled by tech though.

 

[Sleeeper]

You can just hurry production of units in cities with gold... Doesn't that represent mercenaries?

 

[ls612]

Not if you are on a campaign, historically that's where many mercs came from, the territories being invaded. I kinda envisioned this being tied up with Culture resources, but input is always good.

 

[EldrinFal]

One big thing with this is that money is still very abundant in the mod. In my recent autoplay games, my civ, which isn't the leader, has hundreds of thousands of gold by the Renaissance era.

I think typically-- or SO FAR-- mercenaries are represented by units with higher support costs and Hidden Nationality, such as Rogues, Assassins, etc.

 

[strategyonly]

What would the team think of introducing Mercenaries to C2C?

Basically, when the player has a city or large army near a barbarian town, or even by an enemy city with a high REV Idx, they could click a 'recruit mercenaries' button and pay an amount of gold to get military units.

The type of these units could be determined by the new culture resources Hydro is planning, the civ that is present, or other factors, while their quality could be set by what military buildings the nearest city has. This would add a large level of realism to all the eras of the game, as Mercs have long played a large part in himan history.

I know that this would mean a lot of work, and would probably be not done until after the V19 freeze, but I wanted to start the discussion now, as this has been an idea of mine for a while.

Infact i have been thinking about this for the last month or so now, and i too want the regular dll mercenaries INTO the game, but i have talked to the original author of it The_Lopez, and he said it would have to be rebuilt from the "ground up". Which will take ALOT of doing, and now he is gone again from CFC, so that rules that out, i have also talked to Rhye about his mercenaries in his mod, and he has moved on also.

I wish Koshling, AIAndy and DH, could collaborate since it will take ALOT of dll and python to be put together. This is ONE of the better modcomps i really really wish was in this great mod.

 

[ls612]

Infact i have been thinking about this for the last month or so now, and i too want the regular dll mercenaries INTO the game, but i have talked to the original author of it The_Lopez, and he said it would have to be rebuilt from the "ground up". Which will take ALOT of doing, and now he is gone again from CFC, so that rules that out, i have also talked to Rhye about his mercenaries in his mod, and he has moved on also.

I wish Koshling, AIAndy and DH, could collaborate since it will take ALOT of dll and python to be put together. This is ONE of the better modcomps i really really wish was in this great mod.

Given how different C2C is, it may be actually better to start from scratch. That's because with Hydro's upcoming culture resources i was thinking about linking what units you can buy to the culture resources. I'm not a coder, so I don't know how hard that is to do.

If that works out, we might consider having mercenary guilds and corporations. Not sure yet how that'd work, but it's quite far out as of now.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who would like this for C2C.

 

[strategyonly]

Given how different C2C is, it may be actually better to start from scratch. That's because with Hydro's upcoming culture resources i was thinking about linking what units you can buy to the culture resources. I'm not a coder, so I don't know how hard that is to do.

If that works out, we might consider having mercenary guilds and corporations. Not sure yet how that'd work, but it's quite far out as of now.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who would like this for C2C.

Well actually i put together a completely python one, with The_Lopez and then with awhole lot of other python genius', but it STILL does not work correctly.

 

[ls612]

Bump for V19.

Anyone interested in taking up this or something similar now that the freeze is over?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Infact i have been thinking about this for the last month or so now, and i too want the regular dll mercenaries INTO the game, but i have talked to the original author of it The_Lopez, and he said it would have to be rebuilt from the "ground up". Which will take ALOT of doing, and now he is gone again from CFC, so that rules that out, i have also talked to Rhye about his mercenaries in his mod, and he has moved on also.

I wish Koshling, AIAndy and DH, could collaborate since it will take ALOT of dll and python to be put together. This is ONE of the better modcomps i really really wish was in this great mod.

So what is it that you are after?

 

[Necratoid]

I'm baffled on what the point of this would be... The main advantage is that your getting the best units a barbarian state can make... but this would only be of any use if, and a big IF at that, you were somehow behind the barbs in the tech curve.

So its more likely you get a unit that needed to be bribed into joining your side, instantly pay to upgrade it to something that will at least get a 50/50 shot at winning a single fight. This ignore how far behind the xp curve that unit would be in any game I've played in resent memory.

So as far as I can tell its going to make you keep nearby barb cities alive to get uselessly expensive, expendable mooks. At best.

 

[nightcreature]

If you ever needed an army, let's say to crush a rebellion while you're fighting a war, then you might use this. But most of the time, to be honest, this would be unnecessary.

 

[ls612]

If you ever needed an army, let's say to crush a rebellion while you're fighting a war, then you might use this. But most of the time, to be honest, this would be unnecessary.

Three points on why Mercenaries wouldn't be useless.

1. Culture: Last cycle Hydro mentioned he was going to be converting his culture buildings into resources. This would presumably allow for them to be traded, and could also be set up so that you could recruit cultural UUs as Mercenaries (good historical example was Swiss Pikemen). they would cost more to recruit than they would to hurry if you had their culture, making the financial investment relevant.

2. Mercenaries wouldn't contribute to War Weariness (ie who cares if a bunch of foreigners fighting for you die, they're not your people)

3. Mercenary Guilds/Corporations: This concept would be that certain guilds/corps could give you unique units (knights templar, assassins guild) and give mercenaries (and normal units for that matter) more xp, free (and special) promotions and other goodies (swordsmith guild, modern defense contractors).

 

[nightcreature]

Ah... OK then. I probably would never use them because I have good production usually, but they might be needed in some circumstances.

 

[Randomness]

If mercs are implemented, you should be able to sell your unit's services as well. It would be interesting to base your economy on mercs... Perhaps something similar to the Ryhe's and Fall system would work well.

 

[Necratoid]

Your getting mercs from barbarian Civs at this point... meaning you'd have the culture anyway if you just took them over.

So the advantage of this system is every city that wants to make mercs possible need to have the relivant for massive hits in spy points buildings... meaning that the AI will favor this building... meaning spying is very, very easy for players.

All those guilds and stuff sound lovely... if your behind the barbs in tech. Renting them out yourself would mean that unhappy for the liberal population. A misery based economy would be an intresting mechanic. Guess this is how police states make money.

So Mercenaries wouldn't be entirely useless... they'd be useful for buffing AIs to drag out wars even longer and generally helping people that fail at leading a Civ forever last longer.

Also, this mechanic allows the AI Civs to price themselves out of paying for even faster!

For the record, I'm taking the negative side of this topic on principle.

I'm guessing that instead of making units get disbanded mercenaries just go home and pop up in the Civ renting out the mercs originally.

Also Mecs should have a chance to be able to abandon their constract if you send them into combat with a certain spread of odds. The farther the odds are from 50% win chance the more likely the unit bails. at 0.X percent chance they are virtually unable not to do so. only buys so much loyality. You can't spend your if your long dead and forgotten.

 

[ls612]

Your getting mercs from barbarian Civs at this point... meaning you'd have the culture anyway if you just took them over.

So the advantage of this system is every city that wants to make mercs possible need to have the relivant for massive hits in spy points buildings... meaning that the AI will favor this building... meaning spying is very, very easy for players.

All those guilds and stuff sound lovely... if your behind the barbs in tech. Renting them out yourself would mean that unhappy for the liberal population. A misery based economy would be an intresting mechanic. Guess this is how police states make money.

So Mercenaries wouldn't be entirely useless... they'd be useful for buffing AIs to drag out wars even longer and generally helping people that fail at leading a Civ forever last longer.

Also, this mechanic allows the AI Civs to price themselves out of paying for even faster!

For the record, I'm taking the negative side of this topic on principle.

I'm guessing that instead of making units get disbanded mercenaries just go home and pop up in the Civ renting out the mercs originally.

Also Mecs should have a chance to be able to abandon their constract if you send them into combat with a certain spread of odds. The farther the odds are from 50% win chance the more likely the unit bails. at 0.X percent chance they are virtually unable not to do so. only buys so much loyality. You can't spend your if your long dead and forgotten.

I don't know why you are linking mercs to Barbarian civs. I was thinking that throughout the ancient, medieval, and Rennaisance eras there would be swords/guns for hire across the countryside. This can be modeled by REV, so that you can more easily recruit mercenaries in areas with high local instability, but generally you could buy them anywhere.

About the AI, they can be coded not to go totally nuts and spend everything on mercenaries. The +gold buildings now only have -1 for a couple weeks. As for this extending wars, when you are playing on Snail (9900 turns), wars should not be decisively won in 10 turns between major civs. On slower gamespeeds they need to be extended.

I do like the idea about a %chance desertion. I hope the team notices this and puts it into the V20 todo, as SO seemed interested in it.

 

[Necratoid]

Everytime you quote my entire post... because you think I have post blindness so bad I can't go back one post... my respect for you dies a little.

The reason I'm refering hiring for the barbs is that was an option listed in the thread... reread the single page of the thread for details.

I play on eternity. The AI often spams units to the point they have to delete them from lack of upkeep. Granted this is enhanced by me liking to start with me and 49 AIs. The AI often builds military to the point they cripple their growth.

This leaves you with two options:
1) The units are all last generation or further equipment... meaning near useless fodder until you pay for them yet again, so they can buy higher level equipment/training... then can use them in combbat. Meaning the AI will be unlikely bother using them unless near over run. At which point they only serve to up the attacker's influence percentage... and perhaps stall a turn or two. The Ai never has enough to last long from this. (these are retire units or grandkids with Grandpappy's old stuff on.)

2) You actively rent units from another Civ. These units cost per turn.

 

[ls612]

There is no reason to be attacking me, I only quote the whole post because it is hard to write posts from my old iPod Touch, only that. I mean no disrespect to you.

Maybe my experiences are skewed because I play on a huge map with 'only' 12 civs, but in my experience the wars I fight are rather short. The problems you speak of are not a problem with mercenaries, but with the core AI. If you really think it's that bad of a problem you can post about about in the AI Suggestions thread.

We don't need to be disrespectful, but I can see we'll agree to disagree.