C2C Observations

[Thunderbrd]

Already the kill gives the food no matter if you subdue or not. Subdue is extra as is the other possibility of placing the resource on the plot.

Remember in is not the animal you fought with that you are subduing but some of the young that were with that animal.

edit The only thing stopping me is a button.

So then what's the benefit of NOT hunting to subdue?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So then what's the benefit of NOT hunting to subdue?

Not having to delete the subdued animal. That was what the client asked for. Not only the one either. Personally I'll not be using it but I can see the value.

Now if only we could get the pathing to stop going around units that can be easily defeated but go through them.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not having to delete the subdued animal. That was what the client asked for. Not only the one either. Personally I'll not be using it but I can see the value.

Now if only we could get the pathing to stop going around units that can be easily defeated but go through them.

Not exactly an 'interesting decision' to be hunting for kill vs hunting to subdue though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Not exactly an 'interesting decision' to be hunting for kill vs hunting to subdue though.

It is all about reducing micro-management.

 

[Faustmouse]

After a long time only modding and an even longer time not touching the game at all I decided to give it a try again.

First of all: The terrain graphics look really cool! The map doesn't look bad on places were lots of small areas of different terrains come together while the individual terrains are easy to distinguish. Good job!

I'm also playing with hide and seek and non-aggressive animals. At first I was about to complain how few animals there are, but giving my hunter some visibility promotions fixed that. And now I LOVE it! It really makes the game more entertaining as you have to work your way to get all the myths even for animals that live near you. And I had a hard time beating (or as I am still in the PH era: run away from) Chimpanzee and Gorilla groups. Finally animals aren't just annoying to kill but rather difficult! Nice. The only thing I didn't like on that matter is that sometimes you run into invisible animals like bengal tigers that will kill you. But that's ok. However, I encountered a strange thing here, where my hunter + some subdued animals walked onto a plot with an invisible animal but no fight occoured. Half of the Subdued Animals just stayed on the plot they were before and were unable to move after that. Unprotected. They were all grouped together when I moved them, thought.

Regarding gold, it is still as it is. It is a large map with default (9?) civs on snail, no traits at all; started at immortal difficult and increased to deity, no nightmare mod.
I was in plus all the time, until I founded my 2nd city. The first 3 new cities I founded costed -3 gold each. Then I switched to Chiefdom and Tribalism and I was in plus again. In fact, I founded 6 cities (7 in total) and STILL was in a plus, without even building Wealth in any of my cities. It only changed after I switched to the religion civic you get from mysticism. Now I'm at -20 or so gold but that's not a big deal since my capital built anything that I wanted so it can build Wealth now and get me out of that.
To summerize: Even with major expanison I didn't have any problems with gold in the whole PH era.

I also have to note that as of now I lead with 1 city more than my competetior. All of the AI founds new cities thought. And they started doing so around the same time as I did. However, I went for Boat Building first. After Tribalism I just researched random stuff and then decided to go for Tengrii and I got it. I also reached Sed. Lifestyle first.

Let's see how this plays out; the AI is a fair bit away from me (unless it uses boats) and I can defend the two bottlenecks quite good.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

However, I encountered a strange thing here, where my hunter + some subdued animals walked onto a plot with an invisible animal but no fight occoured. Half of the Subdued Animals just stayed on the plot they were before and were unable to move after that. Unprotected. They were all grouped together when I moved them, thought.

I am seeing this a lot also except in my case the subdued animals all move onto the plot leaving the hunter behind. The hunter can then attack the animal on the plot. If there are no other wild animals on the plot the subdued animals are saved otherwise they get killed because the hunter is not there to protect them.

They are grouped but instead of moving as a group the group splits with the ones able to enter the plot moving there leaving the others behind. Those left behind still have their move available but by splitting the group some of the units are suiciding!

 

[sunrisereader]

if deity is to easy but you do not want to run nightmare mode you can make the game harder by putting the AI's in a single team. i did it with a game on a standard map with just me and a 3 ai team and they where ahead in tech the entire game and beat me to almost all wonders. the AI can be put into a team mid game in the wordbuilder if you want to play some more but the single ai's no longer provide a challenge.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I am seeing this a lot also except in my case the subdued animals all move onto the plot leaving the hunter behind. The hunter can then attack the animal on the plot. If there are no other wild animals on the plot the subdued animals are saved otherwise they get killed because the hunter is not there to protect them.

They are grouped but instead of moving as a group the group splits with the ones able to enter the plot moving there leaving the others behind. Those left behind still have their move available but by splitting the group some of the units are suiciding!

This maybe related to a BBAI_AI_Variables_GlobalDefines.xml change I made a couple of months ago to help the AI Attack a city and not be just sitting around outside of a city it should be attacking. I reduced the variable from 150 to the default BtS of 120. And since the Animals are now acting like an AI Civ this is causing some unintended side effects imhpo.

Somehow the Animals need to be separated from this set of Global defines, or at least some of it. But I have no idea how you would do that!

<Define>
<!-- Minimum stack strength ratio at which AI will attack enemy city it is next to, higher means less suicide. BTS default: 120 -->
<DefineName>BBAI_ATTACK_CITY_STACK_RATIO</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>120</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

As far as I can see it is because the subdued animals can move onto the plot since they don't attack the animals there but the hunter can't. I am not 100% sure that it is only when the plot has the prey animals or not. The split doesn't happen if the plot contains a snake for instance.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm also playing with hide and seek and non-aggressive animals. At first I was about to complain how few animals there are, but giving my hunter some visibility promotions fixed that. And now I LOVE it! It really makes the game more entertaining as you have to work your way to get all the myths even for animals that live near you. And I had a hard time beating (or as I am still in the PH era: run away from) Chimpanzee and Gorilla groups. Finally animals aren't just annoying to kill but rather difficult! Nice. The only thing I didn't like on that matter is that sometimes you run into invisible animals like bengal tigers that will kill you. But that's ok. However, I encountered a strange thing here, where my hunter + some subdued animals walked onto a plot with an invisible animal but no fight occoured. Half of the Subdued Animals just stayed on the plot they were before and were unable to move after that. Unprotected. They were all grouped together when I moved them, thought.

Totally normal. Here's what was happening:
1) When you sometimes run into invisible animals that kill you, they may well have been due to the stealth defense ability, status, or as something that came along with a buildup. Stealth defense makes the unit that's invisible attack an enemy that walks onto the tile before the move is fully complete. This is a stealth attack and would gain combat benefits as a stealth attack.

2) When your Hunter + Animals moved onto a plot, the hunter likely revealed an 'enemy' unit and the code had considered him to have moved first in the string of unit movements, interrupting the others since it would then mean they would have to attack to get onto the tile and they cannot do that. Said revealed animal would not have stealth defense obviously since it doesn't attack the hunter during the move. Animal was also only revealed once the hunter was there so it did not invoke an attack.

Regarding gold, it is still as it is. It is a large map with default (9?) civs on snail, no traits at all; started at immortal difficult and increased to deity, no nightmare mod.
I was in plus all the time, until I founded my 2nd city. The first 3 new cities I founded costed -3 gold each. Then I switched to Chiefdom and Tribalism and I was in plus again. In fact, I founded 6 cities (7 in total) and STILL was in a plus, without even building Wealth in any of my cities. It only changed after I switched to the religion civic you get from mysticism. Now I'm at -20 or so gold but that's not a big deal since my capital built anything that I wanted so it can build Wealth now and get me out of that.
To summerize: Even with major expanison I didn't have any problems with gold in the whole PH era.

Joe fought hard to get it back to that.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>

Joe fought hard to get it back to that.

Disclaimer: I reduced the starting Civics from 475% Gold overkill to 225% overkill and Then SO came into the early Civics and changed/lowered it even more.

The current early civics have all been "Tweaked" by SO. So if you don't like the current status for Gold lay it at the feet of the one that owns it, literally the author of said mod. I don't have a problem with it as it is on Immortal or Emperor.

The original 475% aggregate total of the starting Civics was strangling the AI all Preh era. My reducing to 1/2 the strangehold % allowed the AI to have more than 1 city by Ancient era. We were getting constant complaints that the AI was not expanding. It couldn't, it had no Gold to do so. All because previous Deity players wanted to struggle with Gold early early game. Without considering what it would do to the AI. Of course Certain leader traits contributed largely to the problem too.

IMPHO, there is too much to do/be concerned with in this mod than fuss over having a +gold/turn in Preh Era.

Not meaning this to be to pointed or directed at anyone in particular. It's how the Mod is. Frankly we have too many other areas that need balanced 1st before we get on the "too much gold" train again.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Disclaimer: I reduced the starting Civics from 475% Gold overkill to 225% overkill and Then SO came into the early Civics and changed/lowered it even more.

The current early civics have all been "Tweaked" by SO. So if you don't like the current status for Gold lay it at the feet of the one that owns it, literally the author of said mod. I don't have a problem with it as it is on Immortal or Emperor.

The original 475% aggregate total of the starting Civics was strangling the AI all Preh era. My reducing to 1/2 the strangehold % allowed the AI to have more than 1 city by Ancient era. We were getting constant complaints that the AI was not expanding. It couldn't, it had no Gold to do so. All because previous Deity players wanted to struggle with Gold early early game. Without considering what it would do to the AI. Of course Certain leader traits contributed largely to the problem too.

IMPHO, there is too much to do/be concerned with in this mod than fuss over having a +gold/turn in Preh Era.

Not meaning this to be to pointed or directed at anyone in particular. It's how the Mod is. Frankly we have too many other areas that need balanced 1st before we get on the "too much gold" train again.

JosEPh

Fair 'nuff. I don't blame you for wanting to set the record straight. I didn't realize SO had tweaked things that much.

If I have a gripe at all it's not how much excess gold one can have. It's how easy it is to grow large early.

 

[Faustmouse]

I'd rather have too much gold then AIs not expanding, so that's a good one.
The strange thing here is the drop of income shortly after researching Sed- Lifestyle. That one seemed a bit "harsh". It is nothing that you can't manage, though! Playing further in the Ancient era I now really got short on gold (empty treasure with up to -50 gold a turn), but if 1 or 2 cities build lesser Wealth you get into a plus quite easy. Does the AI use this option?

Thanks for clearing this up TB! Hide and seek is still a bit complicated. For example, there are two different lines of promotions for hunters: One with a green eye as a symbol, one with somethink that looks like a wifi symbol. The first green eye gives you + visibility, the second green eye gives visibility range. I know ROUGHLY how it works and I know where I can read it up, but people who don't hang around in this forum might not now.

Oh and thank you for your idea sunrisereader! The AI is only slightly behind me now, but I think it's more military advanced than I am. They also have a higher power value and I've seens scary units walking around near their cities. Plus, the only military resource I have in reach are elephants. No Horses nor any metals. So we will see

New thing that I observed: With War between AIs, there are basically only Foxes, Wolves or other predators nearby. I only saw herbivores 5 times so far :/

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

The original 475% aggregate total of the starting Civics was strangling the AI all Preh era. My reducing to 1/2 the strangehold % allowed the AI to have more than 1 city by Ancient era. We were getting constant complaints that the AI was not expanding. It couldn't, it had no Gold to do so. All because previous Deity players wanted to struggle with Gold early early game. Without considering what it would do to the AI. Of course Certain leader traits contributed largely to the problem too.


JosEPh

Shouldn't AI handicaps have taken care of civic upkeep for them?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Somewhat yes they should have. Problem was we had Never had the starting set of Civics across the whole Civic range penalize Gold/turn with Maint. modifiers like that set had.

But hey if you want to go back to that it's easy to do. Just go back to the official v36 release and copy/paste the line for each starting Civic dealing with these 2 modifiers and the next Civic in each category too.

<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>150</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>200</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>

This is Anarchism's v36 numbers.

But don't expect me to support going back to that kind of maint. modifications.

JosEPh

 

[Bobisback]

I just entered the renaissance era and there was a richest civs in the world. Currently I am making 6.5k a turn at 100% science and I have about 750k in the bank. I was 5th on the list for wealthiest nations in the world hahahaha. And on top of that I just built 12 new cities. So my gold is much lower then it would normally.

 

[Faustmouse]

Day 3:

AI is getting more and more ahead of me. I now have quite some problems with gold, but that is basically just because of crime. and here I have a major point of criticism:

My cities spawn thiefs and rogues, and there is NOTHING I can do about that. I haven't built any crime buildings and the crime in my cities was well in the negatives. Yet they keep spawning and increase the crime. In all of my cities, I have 2 promoted Town Watchman that build up crime fighting, and one with disguise visibility that builds up even more visibility. Plus there is a dog with maxed out (and build up) carmo visbility. From time to time I get messages that a thiev was found, but around 50% of the time, I still can't see him. I even saw 6 rogues in my city, but when I moved out an archer and try to move back in in the same turn, there were gone. Any idea what I can do against them? Nothing bad if they can hide quite good, but if even very specialized units can't see them, that's just plainly frustrating.

 

[majaczek]

Faustmouse? Invest into the dogs?

 

[Keyalha]

Day 3:

AI is getting more and more ahead of me. I now have quite some problems with gold, but that is basically just because of crime. and here I have a major point of criticism:

My cities spawn thiefs and rogues, and there is NOTHING I can do about that. I haven't built any crime buildings and the crime in my cities was well in the negatives. Yet they keep spawning and increase the crime. In all of my cities, I have 2 promoted Town Watchman that build up crime fighting, and one with disguise visibility that builds up even more visibility. Plus there is a dog with maxed out (and build up) carmo visbility. From time to time I get messages that a thiev was found, but around 50% of the time, I still can't see him. I even saw 6 rogues in my city, but when I moved out an archer and try to move back in in the same turn, there were gone. Any idea what I can do against them? Nothing bad if they can hide quite good, but if even very specialized units can't see them, that's just plainly frustrating.

You need investigation type units to keep such stuff from happening as well as units that have visibility (which means they can see other inivisible units) for the right type of visibility.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Day 3:

AI is getting more and more ahead of me. I now have quite some problems with gold, but that is basically just because of crime. and here I have a major point of criticism:

My cities spawn thiefs and rogues, and there is NOTHING I can do about that. I haven't built any crime buildings and the crime in my cities was well in the negatives. Yet they keep spawning and increase the crime.

Criminals do not only spawn from crime buildings you build. They also spawn from crime buildings that emerge due to high crime. Some buildings that can bring about spawns also may not seem like the kind of building that you'd have trouble from but those are fairly infrequent.

However, the most important thing to consider is that the chance of spawning is purely derived from the crime level. Keep the city completely crime free and you will never have a spawned criminal.

In all of my cities, I have 2 promoted Town Watchman that build up crime fighting, and one with disguise visibility that builds up even more visibility. Plus there is a dog with maxed out (and build up) carmo visbility. From time to time I get messages that a thiev was found, but around 50% of the time, I still can't see him.

Your method should be effective at seeing the criminals in most cases and particularly when the criminal becomes wanted. However, on Hide and Seek it CAN take a few times for the criminal to become wanted to be revealed - each time he is more deeply investigated the law is getting closer to being able to move in to make an arrest.

I even saw 6 rogues in my city, but when I moved out an archer and try to move back in in the same turn, there were gone. Any idea what I can do against them? Nothing bad if they can hide quite good, but if even very specialized units can't see them, that's just plainly frustrating.

Not sure how the archer's movement would have manipulated anything. That part's a little confusing. Were you moving the archer so you could move back to the city in hopes this would attack them? Just as a note, this doesn't work. You'll need to attempt an arrest and you can only do this if the criminal is seen, is wanted, and you're doing it with a law enforcement unit.

Keep in mind with buildups that simply selecting the unit will remove all the built up promos so if you had split off the archer from being grouped with a Law Enforcement that had built up extra visibility and when selected had lost it.