C2C Strength and Honor

[Nimek]

Background

I am a type of expansionist player (conqer everything as soon as possible) and i found that C2C is too easy in that type of play because some units can be easy exploited. I will post list of changes that I plan. When plan will be finished modmod will be released (or not if we reach some type of consensu with all C2C team)

I will update first post with new ideas

Unit changes

- 50% city attack for archer and bowman (entire archery line will have - city attack modiffier)
- 20% city attack for horseman (entire mounted line - city attack modiffier)
- 20% city attack for neanderthals
- 20% city attack for chariots

Pomotion changes

Poisoned tips reduced +25% strength to +10%

Civic changes
unargonized labor will give +10% maintiance cost from number and distance instead of -10%
Mercernires military civic - +2 per military unit instead of 1

Gamplay changes
- disabled heroes
- disaled alt timelines excluding megafauna domestication (overpowered units)
+1 per cultural unit maintiance cost
- no food bonuses via trade network

More important military buildings

I thinking about making military buildings required to build some types of units ex fleatcher hut required to build archer, armourer to build heavy axeman, swordsman etc to prevent situation where you can buy entire army in fresh conqured city.

Confusions to resolve

Xifos - minoan culture unit. It has 8 and +20% city attack in times where other non cultural units have only 5 - Add Iron wares as requred to Xifos

Realistic City Siege
implement ideas from
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=497414

Raise unit maintiance cost depending of difficulty
How?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Interesting. I will be watching your assessments and responses to those playing with them.

I'm the same style of player really and agree with you that this strategy is a bit too easy in C2C (though I daresay its a bit too easy in Civ in general).

But I have some ways to address these things that differ a bit.

The Combat Mod adjustments are slowly going into effect. By the time they are all said and done, I think you will find the balance has been re-obtained in these departments (and warfare has earned entire new layers of strategy.) But we'll see.

 

[Nimek]

The biggest pain in the ass is that we have a lot of siege units but you dont have to use them. Big unit stack and SAD gives you enought bonus to capture everything.

As we talk about SAD. What about giving walls line protection against SAD?

Remember In history a lot of cities was captured by long siege (food shortage, diseases etc) and corrupted traitors.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That's a great idea! (walls protecting against S&D)

I can't remember if I made a tag for that or not but if not it makes sense to do so. The tag on units and promos that adds protection against S&D is Dynamic Defense. It hasn't been put to much application considering Koshling has yet to work out the S&D AI we were hoping for.

I'll have to check if the tag was put in place or not...

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Nimek

I thinking about making military buildings required to build some types of units ex fleatcher hut required to build archer, armourer to build heavy axeman, swordsman etc to prevent situation where you can buy entire army in fresh conqured city.

We have considered this before however if you did this then the XP the buildings give becomes mandatory for the units. This is why for the buildings that are required for units, such as the Shipwright for Wooden Ships do not give XP. However other non-required buildings do such as the Shipyard, Naval Academy, etc.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Along these lines, something I do in my own game is remove the free Speed promotion that the Riding School gives to mounted units. I find that 2-move Elephants are way over-powered - the tradeoff for the higher strength Elephant should be only 1-move mobility.

 

[Nimek]

@Hydro

Thanks for response. I will remember about it.
I think this idea is next step into evolution that we have begun when added ore resources and industrial chains.

If you can send me links where I can find full list of unit tags to add attack moddifiers and building requirements I will be greateful

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, in checking, it was Repel that was made for buildings to add to units in the city. Dynamic Defense though is a good idea and I've added it to my immediate goals list. Should be done this weekend or earlier.

 

[Nimek]

Does anybody from modders can give me advice how to increase city maintiance cost depending of game dificulty?

I think current maintiance is too low. It easily to get 200 gold/turn or more at 100% in ancient

 

[DRJ]

I think current maintiance is too low. It easily to get 200 gold/turn or more at 100% in ancient

You aren't playing deity, are you? ;-)
At that difficulty level every new city is a huge burden to shoulder. The way I keep my expansion and at the same time still enjoy a high science rate is by having my major cities to produce (lesser) wealth, while the new cities get some infrastructure.

Of course this hurts production (of units and buildings) but imo production is not as valueable as beakers in the beginning.

You just have to build only the buildings that are really needed (all buildings giving commerce/gold/science and some specific strategic ones)

I thinking about making military buildings required to build some types of units ex fleatcher hut required to build archer, armourer to build heavy axeman, swordsman etc to prevent situation where you can buy entire army in fresh conqured city.

Yeah I liked to see that. The only unit that could be built without a special unit-related building (like fletcher/barracks etc) should maybe be a militia. The equipment of the coming combat mod will enable you to strengthen this unit later btw. But it still wouldn't have the xp and promos the trained units from barracks would receive.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have to agree with DRJ. On deity its practically mandatory to have cities producing lesser wealth to keep your economy afloat. it gets so bad you wish you could make the science slider go below 0 just to get some more gold.

However eventually you can dig your way out of the hole. But its still very difficulty on deity (as it should be).

 

[rightfuture]

In this same vein maybe you should also consider initiative and morale. Both very powerful concepts in strategic combat. C2C could use those.

 

[Faustmouse]

I have to agree with DRJ. On deity its practically mandatory to have cities producing lesser wealth to keep your economy afloat. it gets so bad you wish you could make the science slider go below 0 just to get some more gold.

However eventually you can dig your way out of the hole. But its still very difficulty on deity (as it should be).

In the very early game: 100% Agree! Almost lost the game while conquering the 1st city because I was at -10 gold /turn at 100% tax!
But around medival, you can accumulate far to much gold. When I entered the Renaissance I had 50 cities and +11.000 gold / turn at 0% tax. I need to say that I found basically every religion and build the shrines, but that was quite easy...

 

[Hydromancerx]

In the very early game: 100% Agree! Almost lost the game while conquering the 1st city because I was at -10 gold /turn at 100% tax!
But around medival, you can accumulate far to much gold. When I entered the Renaissance I had 50 cities and +11.000 gold / turn at 0% tax. I need to say that I found basically every religion and build the shrines, but that was quite easy...

Sometimes. I was playing on Deity on a very small map. I founded only 4 cities and then attacked my neighbor that had 9 cities. I managed to take 4 of his but then he not only took them back but then left me with only 2. Then I founded another one on a small island off my coast. Even with 2 or 3 cities I had to have them all be on wealth. The major factor is trade. All other civs were across the ocean and I could not trade with them. Which hurt my economy bad.

It was not until I got astronomy that I could trade with them. However by then it was too late an I was stuck on the small island while all my other cities were taken over on the mainland.

I may go back and play it to see if I can come back from the dead. The AI doesn't seem to do sea invasions well so my last island city seems safe. If I could just send some boats over to a backwards nation and take them over I could make a comeback. The problem is getting boats over to the nation without getting killed by the other more powerful nations.

 

[Nimek]

Ok starting from monday Iam going to vacation (7 days)

@modders
Please consider adding
at least + 1 support cost per cultural military unit

Cultural units are some kind of elite and they are more powerfull than basic ones. It often starts with free promos and they should cost more.

Now when you choose beetwen basic one vs cultural to produce you always choose cultural because it is more powerfull and have the same maintiance cost.

 

[Taxman66]

True, but that is why their is a limit of 15. You can/will hit that easily in the classic era. However, I can still see your point if you got a bunch of cultural units to choose from. Although some aren't that much better than the base unit and don't carry their benefits (i.e. the ones with intrinsic % or movement benefits instead of free promotions) when the unit is upgraded.

Speaking of which I wish the Greek phalanx unit would be changed. I don't get why it has +100% vs. Chariots and no benefit vs. normal Cavalry. I don't think I've ever seen the computer build a chariot unit over a horseman/mounted infantry etc...

 

[DRJ]

Ok starting from monday Iam going to vacation (7 days)

@modders
Please consider adding
at least + 1 support cost per cultural military unit

Cultural units are some kind of elite and they are more powerfull than basic ones. It often starts with free promos and they should cost more.

Now when you choose beetwen basic one vs cultural to produce you always choose cultural because it is more powerfull and have the same maintiance cost.

I would say make the cultural units that have +1 strength compared to the normal units + 1

The strength 8 minoan "Xifus" unit is way better than the light swordsman that it replaces (and also comes earlier!), here I would say +1
but the ainu culture special unit, the "Surku" just is a basic archer with poison tips promotion which I can have for every normal archer as well if I send it to a city with poison makers hut. There the +1 would not be balancing.

 

[PKSRoman]

it wouldn`t be better instead giving them extra strengh like Xifus , give special promotions like "+30% vs melee unit, -30% versus archers "
as in real life - u cant have all what u want, extra strengh versus some unit but less HP or weakness aganist other unit type

Germans have a flame throwers who be perfect for burning houses, burn partisants from city serwers etc , but they be weaker in normal range fighting ( looks like +200% to attack city but HP should be ~50% Hp other units from this era ( if normal hp is 50 for indtrustal, flamethrowers would be have 50/2 = 25. But if they attack a city 25x4 (+100% means double aganist, 200% means quadro) =100

 

[teakbois]

You aren't playing deity, are you? ;-)
At that difficulty level every new city is a huge burden to shoulder. The way I keep my expansion and at the same time still enjoy a high science rate is by having my major cities to produce (lesser) wealth, while the new cities get some infrastructure.

Even immortal its rough.

I can crush cities with Elephant riders a little too easily, but I have to burn their cities

 

[Nimek]

@modders

Two questions

1 How to remove bonuses from trade network
2 How to raise maintiance cost for units depending on difficulty

I noticed that cities grow too fast with thise food from air (trade network) what gives big empire even more bonuses (snow ball effect) so i want to remove it.

V31 is ready I would like to start making this changes.