C2C - UEM - Ultimate-Earth-Map 100% MOD and SVN update compatible by Pit2015

[Pit2015]

BUG/PROBLEM:

I looked into the AI again, to make AI even better and harder and not to easy to conquer try to teach AI again to start to build units in every city when war is declared on them, now they build to much buildings even if the enemy is at the gates, AI should switch to units directly when at war after the current production of the current building is finished. Some screenies...

City Massawa is building butchery then bonemarrower not units, should build directly units for defence.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Only a few cities are given to train military units so that they don't waste production on units they'll take too long to produce and are too undertrained once they come out. This is somewhat a work in progress as I still feel that they have a few ways they need to learn to improve on the quality of their units from those central production cities. Additionally, they need to staff a stack of defense units they can send to wherever it looks like attacks are coming in. But having common cities stop to train units is quite wasteful and was one of the larger mistakes being made in Vanilla's AI. They really have to work hard to get up to the point where they have all the buildings they need to be a 'graduated' city enough to be worthy to train units from.

Another way that decision harms them is that all it takes is wandering an army around during a war declaration to get them to slow down their economic development tremendously. They should be strong enough with their defense forces to assume they will repel your army - though those cities should be building defensive buildings if coming under threat and don't have them.

There's also the matter of rushing defenses, units and buildings, in cities about to be attacked - and a lot of that has been disabled since the AI tends to think it's under attack by the slightest indication of danger, like rogues being in the city, so all it takes is the slightest perception of threat and it will start depopulating the city for emergency units. The damage to the AI was tremendous with this in place and I couldn't find a way to get them to require greater a much greater threat level. Koshling programmed the threat analysis section and I still haven't quite sorted out how that's supposed to work vs how it actually works yet.

In summary, I'm not saying the AI is sufficient at defense and war in general, but I AM saying don't expect improvements for a few years given the lineup of projects that lie in wait before that can really be directly addressed and even then once I start trying to its part of a huge overhaul of the strategic AI I'm still gradually sorting out.

 

[Pit2015]

Only a few cities are given to train military units so that they don't waste production on units they'll take too long to produce and are too undertrained once they come out. This is somewhat a work in progress as I still feel that they have a few ways they need to learn to improve on the quality of their units from those central production cities. Additionally, they need to staff a stack of defense units they can send to wherever it looks like attacks are coming in. But having common cities stop to train units is quite wasteful and was one of the larger mistakes being made in Vanilla's AI. They really have to work hard to get up to the point where they have all the buildings they need to be a 'graduated' city enough to be worthy to train units from.

Another way that decision harms them is that all it takes is wandering an army around during a war declaration to get them to slow down their economic development tremendously. They should be strong enough with their defense forces to assume they will repel your army - though those cities should be building defensive buildings if coming under threat and don't have them.

There's also the matter of rushing defenses, units and buildings, in cities about to be attacked - and a lot of that has been disabled since the AI tends to think it's under attack by the slightest indication of danger, like rogues being in the city, so all it takes is the slightest perception of threat and it will start depopulating the city for emergency units. The damage to the AI was tremendous with this in place and I couldn't find a way to get them to require greater a much greater threat level. Koshling programmed the threat analysis section and I still haven't quite sorted out how that's supposed to work vs how it actually works yet.

In summary, I'm not saying the AI is sufficient at defense and war in general, but I AM saying don't expect improvements for a few years given the lineup of projects that lie in wait before that can really be directly addressed and even then once I start trying to its part of a huge overhaul of the strategic AI I'm still gradually sorting out.

Prioritize the AI is most important. Well at least for now the AI put some citys to build units, but maybe it isnt to hard to set something like check "If at war build units primary". I trust in you. Also of what i have been reported here in the last years was fixed and improved very fast. Outstanding.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Prioritize the AI is most important

Nope. The AI will have to adapt to a lot coming still and I'd rather overhaul its design to account for all that's coming in at once.

Well at least for now the AI put some citys to build units, but maybe it isnt to hard to set something like check "If at war build units primary". I trust in you.

That's right, the AI does react to war, just not as you would classically think. Some strategies have been determined over the years of play on this game that are a little counterintuitive but lead to large improvements. Obviously there's ALWAYS AI work to do. One could spend many lifetimes improving the AI.

 

[Pit2015]

Finish multimap first then improve AI again. I own now all of the AI with my hero units (But you only can go to this point when you can be world leader and that was not easy to achieve on deity), letz see how that will be in 1000 turns. Also i noticed AI is not using treasure units, let em stand arround in there towns endless until i go there and get them.

My monarchy is founded now!

 

[raxo2222]

Nope. The AI will have to adapt to a lot coming still and I'd rather overhaul its design to account for all that's coming in at once.


That's right, the AI does react to war, just not as you would classically think. Some strategies have been determined over the years of play on this game that are a little counterintuitive but lead to large improvements. Obviously there's ALWAYS AI work to do. One could spend many lifetimes improving the AI.

Notice how he steamrolls everyone and that hes first in ranking.

@Pit2015 you are first in ranking - you already won.
You should play on Nightmare handicap with TD/WFL enabled only for AI.

 

[Pit2015]

Notice how he steamrolls everyone and that hes first in ranking.

@Pit2015 you are first in ranking - you already won.
You should play on Nightmare handicap with TD/WFL enabled only for AI.

No on this scale its not won yet, i cant destroy all fast, takes time only my hero units are able to breakthrough and i have only 3 good heroes for the entire world. And there are already civs with a larger army then mine, also i have strong economy problems. Also i have my troops to cover a super large territory, so i have a relative small army. I play world police a bit and let the civs survive, also the aboriginies killed the australian civ, i reetablished them in a liberation war. Far from winning, just a superpower soon. I dont have enouth gold and troops now to send armys everywhere and more wars will disrupt my relations with all, that will cause problems. Game goal is to keep the planet moving and mostly all civs on planet, but i dominate some of them and show them there borders. Building a superpower. And there is alot of room for some hundreds more citys on map. If time is comming i cant slave anymore i will be in trouble, if i loos my trade partner my economy will crush and my research will slow down to 5% letting the AI comming up. Next step is to fix my war driven economy, but that may take 500 or more turns. I played 2 days now for 12 turns in anarchy.

Btw how long is slavery working?

 

[tmv]

Even in Roman days, they wouldn't tell their people to go see the Tribus in his hut. They said Tribunus because it was an advancement of the concept and he certainly didn't work out of a hut.

Sorry, that was misleading. "Tribus" means tribe, "Tribunus" means tribal chief originally. The term itself changed its meaning in a way that has happened with quite a few words. The later tribunus might not have worked out of a hut, but very often he worked from a tent, especially the military tribune.

You obviously don't like that civics have unique effects on cities through buildings, but I would like to see much more of it as it makes the civic choices more interesting.
Having all the civic buildings could be thought of as having a well developed civic, when changing away from that well developed civic you then have a poorly developed civic that may not be better right away, but may get better when it is fully developed.
A revolution from a mature chiefdom into an immature monarchy should have some downsides right away.

Not at all. It's quite the opposite, actually. I just think it's poor reasoning to confuse local chiefs with a paramount chief - and you still didn't address the examples I gave you where these structures existed in a kingdom, even in your own home country (the Old Kingdom of Norway, at least).

The time of immaturity of a civic is what I think of regarding anarchy - the new civics get implemented right away, but they have not yet taken complete control, and the "new people" in charge are still very inexperienced - so you cannot benefit from the new (or indeed, from the unchanged) civics at that time. But even with your interpretation a mature chiefdom would in many ways be superior even to a mature monarchy - or a mature democracy.

@Thunderbrd @Toffer90 The Chief Hut is about local power. That is (mostly) addressed by the rule civic, not the government civic. And it is the only building of its kind. The local administration is seated in the administration building, this is more like the private residence of the local ruler - separating these two paints a picture of a very sophisticated society. All the other societies have the two functions in one building (if at all), which is not the way things are usually done in most parts of the world, especially at the local level. (Or do mayors really live in the town hall?) Of course, if you want to emphasize the difficulty of transition you could introduce new (civic-dependent) residences of prefects, reeves/provosts and later on of mayors, just so that a prehistory civic doesn't seem to be better organized than even fully formed more modern civics. The Chief Hut in particular is so powerful that you are better off staying a Chiefdom at least until Medieval (unless you play with city limits). It's really strange to see chiefdoms as global powers (to say nothing of immersion-breaking), but the later civics really don't offer a better equivalent, especially when you consider anarchy times.

So, to summarize, there are three reasons I have problems with that:

• The civic chiefdom should define the central authority, not the local authorities.
• The civic chiefdom is too strong compared to later civics - there should at least be replacement buildings with comparable stats (of course they should be more expensive)
• The Great Wonder "Hill of Tara" becomes too weak when you leave Chiefdom - the rest of its stats are barely enough for a regular building

 

[Thunderbrd]

And it is the only building of its kind

Of course, if you want to emphasize the difficulty of transition you could introduce new (civic-dependent) residences of prefects, reeves/provosts and later on of mayors, just so that a prehistory civic doesn't seem to be better organized than even fully formed more modern civics.

So there perhaps should be a system of upgrades. That makes sense. Not that I have time to concern myself with it personally right now but sure. I'd probably have come to this conclusion at some point down the road anyhow.

(Or do mayors really live in the town hall?)

Where they live means nothing. Where they meet with people does. And in a more advanced society, this is where that happens whereas in a more primal one, their home is their meeting place from which they issue authority.

The Chief Hut in particular is so powerful that you are better off staying a Chiefdom at least until Medieval (unless you play with city limits).

I agree that it's a power building and there is much lost by it. I've not evaluated the civics enough to see this directly but I believe you're right. My wife is saying this is pretty much the case with many early civics at the moment. She personally mentioned caste system was like this recently.

The civic chiefdom should define the central authority, not the local authorities.

Well, you make a point that new forms of local authority buildings, rather than just generic administrative ones, should replace these.

The civic chiefdom is too strong compared to later civics - there should at least be replacement buildings with comparable stats (of course they should be more expensive)

This is all being discussed in the wrong thread since this is the issue at hand. This needs to get copied over to the civics discussion.

The Great Wonder "Hill of Tara" becomes too weak when you leave Chiefdom - the rest of its stats are barely enough for a regular building

It would not be the only wonder to have a limited time span making it valid.

 

[Pit2015]

STARTING WORK ON UEM 3.8 NOW - MAKING THE MAP/SCENARIO HARDER!

UEM 3.8 should be available in some hours.

POINTS AND PROBLEMS TO DISSCUSS BEFORE I START A NEW GAME:

1. I will make the coastal way arround the world blocked by parts with sea plots, so the new world will be seperated from the old world and some reagions will be only reachable from seafaring tech now, giving some AI more time to develope. I will seperate the caribeens with sea plots, indonesia and the south pacific isle region and the new and old world with sea plots. So the gamer can only go there when seafaring has been researched.

2. I will add and enlarge some iseles a bit in the oceans so that there is in later game alot of stuff to colonize for later gameplay.

3. I will take surround & destroy out of scenario, will make it mutch more harder to capture/destroy AI citys and AI units.

4. I will fix all minor stuff and will develop the map further.

PROBLEMS IN MOD I DISCOVERED:

1. When you click "Let's stop this ponitless fighting and make peace" then there will be no peace treaty for 100 turns, only when you negotate peace in talks with other civs. That should be fixed and maybe set to 200 turns not 100 turns peace treaty to give the AI more time to recover after a war.

2. Culture capturing - When you take like a asian civ city you can build asian cultures in all of your citys, i think this should be changed and be limited to your own founding culture (No culture capturing), because you can capture other AI citys and build then fast alot of cultures like asian or other cultures you normaly cant, giving you alot of extra hero units and taking them away from the AI making the AI to easy. Will and can you change this fast before i start my new game?

 

[Thunderbrd]

2. Culture capturing - When you take like a asian civ city you can build asian cultures, i think this should be changed and be limited to your own founding culture, because you can capture other AI citys and build then fast alot of cultures like asian or other cultures you normaly cant, giving you alot of extra hero units and taking them away from the AI making the AI to easy. Will and can you change this fast before i start my new game?

You can. Just turn off Cultural Assimilation as an option. It's on and invisible by default if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Pit2015]

You can. Just turn off Cultural Assimilation as an option. It's on and invisible by default if I'm not mistaken.

There is a option called "Assimilation" is that the one?

 

[Thunderbrd]

There is a option called "Assimilation" is that the one?

That might be it. I think so because I can't think of what else that would be.

 

[Pit2015]

Plz look these options, anything i should turn off or any option that works good what should be enabled for a long game? Combat mods? And what does advanced economy do?

Thinking alread to take off unlimited wonders, will make it harder and not all wonders can be stolen off the AI to easy.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I gave my opinions on all currently available game options in the player's guide thread. Obviously those are mostly my opinions rather than a reflection of everyone's.

 

[Pit2015]

Anyone knows what ongoing training does? Cant find it there...? Ok forget it i found it...

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/caveman2cosmos-v38-5-player-guide.607564/

 

[Thunderbrd]

Anyone knows what ongoing training does? Cant find it there...?

It's a work in progress. Not yet available.

 

[Pit2015]

It's a work in progress. Not yet available.

Assimilation option is always back in also if i save and reload scenario, is that a bug? Cant disable it...

 

[Toffer90]

Not at all. It's quite the opposite, actually. I just think it's poor reasoning to confuse local chiefs with a paramount chief - and you still didn't address the examples I gave you where these structures existed in a kingdom, even in your own home country (the Old Kingdom of Norway, at least).

I only stated that the chief hut requires chiefdom civic by design, that it is not a bug.
I consider the building, especially its stats, to be explicitly tied to the chiefdom governmental structure.

The chiefs hut has been tied to the chiefdom civic for as long as I can remember, I see no reason to question that design choice.

I'm not really interested in having a deeper discussion about this, I'm satisfied with this design choice, who made it I don't know, but that person would be better suited to participate in your discussion.

So, to summarize, there are three reasons I have problems with that:

• The civic chiefdom should define the central authority, not the local authorities.
• The civic chiefdom is too strong compared to later civics - there should at least be replacement buildings with comparable stats (of course they should be more expensive)
• The Great Wonder "Hill of Tara" becomes too weak when you leave Chiefdom - the rest of its stats are barely enough for a regular building

The first point could be addressed by renaming "chiefs hut" to "chiefs monument", but I personally don't care much for names. An alternative is to make a new building for chiefdom and release the chief hut from its leash to the civic.
@JosEPh_II is balancing civics currently, perhaps he will address the second point, the chiefs hut might need a nerf if it is unreasonable to nerf the chiefdom civic in itself. Boosting later civics is also a possibility.
The Hill of Tara should imo have some benefits that is tied to the monarchy civic. However, I do like that whoever gets the hill of tara increases the lifetime and validity of the chiefdom civic for that one civ. It's a neat feature in essence, and I think most civic option should have a wonder that boost them.

Edit: I won't post more on this topic here as it is out of place in this thread.

 

[Pit2015]

UEM - ULTIMATE EARTH MAP 3.8 100% MOD and SVN update compatible RELEASED!

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-and-svn-update-compatible-by-pit2015.552901/

Changes in C2C - Ultimate Earth Map V3.8 100% MOD and SVN update compatible:

Removed all blocking ice plots in greenland making more terrain available.
One turquis resource placed in north america to make Anazasi culture possible.
Krakatau wonder added to map.
Sharky bay wonder added to map.
Downgrading is profitable option enabled in scenario.
Surround and destroy game option disabled, makes it to easy to kill AI.
Cultural assimilation game option disabled, makes it to easy to kill AI.
Realistic Siege game option enabled, makes it harder to get AI citys.
Sea travel change:
1. "New World" to "Old World" costal sea travel north america to europe blocked now by sea plots, so there is the tech seafaring
needed to travel there or ocean ships later for full travel. (Giving the AI more time to build up and come to a point where the AI cant be killed to easy)
2. The caribbean are blocked now with a sea plot, meens the caribbean region can only be colonized if you have seafaring able ships,
or ocean travel able ships, this region is so reserved for later game colonization.
3. Indonesia is blocked by a ocean plot now, meens indonesia can only be colonized if you have ocean able travel ships,
this region is so reserved for later game colonization. Also this keeps australian and south pacific civs out until ocean travel is researched,
so if you research good ships able to travel the oceans fast in time you may travel there and colonize.
4. South pacific and new seeland travel is also blocked now until ocean travel is researched, from there these civs can be contacted, colonized or
leave there region.
5. "New World" to "Asia" costal sea travel north america to asia blocked now by sea plots, so there is the tech seafaring
needed to travel there or ocean ships later for full travel. (Giving the AI more time to build up and come to a point where the AI cant be killed to easy)
Added alot of small islands and increased some, to make ocean exploration and colonizing in later game more interesting.
6. Secret passages to easter isle and all early costal passages are removed from scenario now, you need the seafaring tech
to reach some regions or a tech that enables ocean travel to reach some regions.
Fixed Tokyo city name
Fixed the starting gold bug for some civs, all civs start now with 0 gold.
Changed leader Katharina to Stalin, so Stalin is the leader of russia now, should make russia stronger.
Moved Moscow more to east giving russia a better start location and more land.
Changed Julius Cäsar name to correctly Julius Caesar.
Some minor changes and resource changes.

Have Fun and try to survive on planet earth.

Also get ready for the upcoming 1492 Scenario with UEM - Ultimate Earth Map (Release Spring/Summer 2019)