C3B Election Fun!

[Emp.Napoleon]

For those of you who are interested, I wrote this up for us. Since this election will be very important to us, we should try our best to influence the elections in our favour.


Official Thread about the elections of C3B:
Parties:
Brazunca Moderate Party
New Center-Left Party (Communist)
Taliban

The political climate of C3B has been changing rapidly this last term. The Old Center-Left Party disbanded itself for many reasons, the biggest probably being the alliance with Fanatica. The old Center-Left Party wanted to have a war with Fanatica in the future, therefore did not want a good alliance. They thought that C3B was wasting its UU in staying peaceful with Fanatica. This party had been losing support under JokerDF’s presidency because the alliance held tight. They host many big names, such as Pggar, administrator is C3B forums, JokerDF, a talented diplomat, and many others. After they disbanded themselves some tried to reform the party, but not in time for elections for term six.

The Moderate Party has been around since the parties were formed. They are the ruling party, and after this term, if they do well, will be the only party. They are the only organized large party, and the citizens of C3B will be unable to unite to stop them. Many citizens will just go along with it, or as one citizen says, “They act like sheep, they do whatever the government tells them.” If C3B were to descend into a complete one party state, this will affect Fanatica in many ways, good and bad. If the party is able to hold power peacefully and though domestic measures, they will be friendly to us. If they start to lose power, they may start a war with Fanatica in order to regain support.

The one last party’s name is unknown, but many politicians refer to them as the “Taliban” party. This party has only one real member, Cassino. This Cassino is known for his hostility toward the great alliance between C3B and Fanatica. He is well liked by the budding Communist Party, and many of them will vote for him since the Communist Party will not nominate someone for the presidency. He will be able to reunite all of those who are anti-alliance and bring a real challenge to the Moderate Party. If he is elected Fanatica should begin to build up it’s military,, since war can be expected.

One of the major things on the line is the pursuit of Democracy. If the Moderate Party wins, the people will lose faith in the other parties and it will become a one-party state. If Cassino wins, democracy will be preserved and it will return to a two party nation. Therefore, a vote for Master of Civ, is a vote for the Moderate Party, and possible dictatorship, but a vote for the alliance. A vote to Cassino is a vote against the alliance, but a vote to preserve the party system in C3B.

Cat is another wild card. She has seen some of the people in the Moderate Party wanting party domination, and she is against it. She caused a ruckus in the party by announcing that she will be leavening the party since she wants to preserve the democratic system C3B has. She was disgusted at how her party members tried to gain power. She could have easily won the Minister of External Affairs spot. She has shown here skill as a diplomat. Many in the party tried to get her to run, but she would have no hand in the acts of her party. She is not upset at every single person in the party, there are a few people who were hoping to make it a real power, but everyone else just goes along with it.

The Election:
President:
Master of Civ
Cassino

After the well-liked JokerDF announced that he would not run for a second term, for reasons in this real life, the party was slow to nominate Master. The Taliban Party Nominated Cassino quickly with the support of the Communist Party. Master has been Military Commander for two terms but Cassino has no known experience. The only real reason why Cassino is a threat to the Moderate Party is due to his stance on the alliance. He is the only major political figure who opposes the alliance, and the old bad feelings about Fanatica have reemerged thanks to him. Cassino has caused problems in C3B before. Due to his radical attitude, a Supreme Court had been proposed. Both are no that great, but Master is for sure the less evil.

Other Elections:
Minister of the Exterior:
Kansan will not be running again, who is running is not known

Commander of the Armed Forces of Civ3Brasil:
Since Master of Civ will be running for President, he will not be commander next term. Kansan will be running. His opponent is unknown

Ambassador to Fanatica:
The Minister of the Exterior appoints this position. Therefore, whichever party gains the Minster stop, will also gain the ambassador spot. The candidates are unknown, but for sure Cat will not be it next term.

 

[Rik Meleet]

So, that means: Whoever wins the C3B elections we'll be facing hard times and have an unreliable "ally". Combined with the likely C3B rejection of our border proposal and the stubborn C3B approach to our friendly suggestions (trade techs when available etc.) I'm seeing them less and less as friends and more and more as targets and a danger.

I say we should be considering this CFC-C3B alliance as ending and prepare to strike at C3B decisively, before they do that to us.

This makes the finding of the other 2 teams more and more important, as well as settling our island (AKA Safe haven) quickly. Expand with cities northwards (the 15 turn pause has ended) and build high quality units. Units that last in the C3B'ian terrain. AC's, pikes, javs and catapults. According to C3B there are no horses on our continent, that means no fast -retreating- units for C3B. Or do we prefer a naval attack ? I don't. I favor land attack.

If we focus we can have the settling completed in 20 turns and our army ready in 40 turns. C3B is our ticket to the 2nd round. Getting rid of them should be our goal; as getting rid of us seems to be their goal. We should use the knowledge that 2 of their biggest cities are tied up in -useless- wonder production.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

So, that means: Whoever wins the C3B elections we'll be facing hard times and have an unreliable "ally".

If master wins, there is a 50% chance that he may stay with us. If he can prove to his peopel that the allliance will help his people, then he will stay with it. If he choses the war path, which is unlikely, he would do it inoder to stay in office. Overall we are better off with master of civ. But we will not know for sure untill after.

 

[RegentMan]

I'm beginning to side with Rik more and more as time goes on. Thanks for taking the time to type up this report, Emp.!

 

[akots]

Master of Civ is not that week player actually, whereas with Cassino there should be no problem at all since apparently he is a weak player.

We need at least 50 turns to be in a decent shape for war. It mght be possible to start earlier but there is just too much land between our countries. It would be also nice if they can send us the Wheel. We owe them Currency for that and they owe us also something, have to check the chat log.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

We should build up regardless of who wins though. If things turn out good for us we can use the troops aginst the other alliance.

 

[Hygro]

We want Cassino to win because he's at least reliable! I still think more focus should be put to settling than to military even with either in office.

 

[Cheetah]

Think I'll try to be active again.

What if we could start crashing negotiations so that Cassino wins, and then turn on the charm to make C3B remain friends? Cassino would be the worst player, and give us an upper hand.

Though maybe we want both of us to be strong when we face the other teams?

What we have to decide is: Do we want war or peace. If we want war we should make sure Cassino is elected. If not, we really should make sure we get peace.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Wonderfull intelligence gathering Emp. Napoleon.
I'm glad to see that we are using team intelligence as another strentgh towards our team ,a strentgh that not many teams are likely to share with us.

Sad to hear that the Cat will most likely be put out of her function ,i presume she was a very good source of intelligence?

Now as to idea's on the situation:
Ill never prefer war with C3B ,from a strategical point of view it's never in our advantage ,since we are with 4 leftover teams it would be beter if the last nessecary civ killed gets eliminated on the other continent rather than ours ,technicly we and C3B don't need to go to war nessecarely to survive into the next round and as thus it would be more optimal if we wouldn't.

Gaining time is the best strategy IMO on the moment ,for various reasons:
1: the more time we gain the more their UU will get uselless
2: the more time we gain the better our chances are to find the other continent and direct the need of war of C3B as allies towards a new common enemy ,wich would be optimaly for us and C3B.
3: the more time we gain the greater the chances that the 2 nations on the other continent get involved in a war with eachother
4: the more time we gain the more we can strenghten our position wich is clearly not the best ATM.

Propositions would be 1) to stall yet again the talks on the border atter until after the ellection ,if C3B will hear that we want all that land in te buffer zone while they are still in ellections it will strenghten the position of the radical party's ,as well as severely limmiting our chances to get a favourable deal there.
2) To bluf poker a bit about finding the other continent: We could inform C3B that we have found a passage to the other continent and "are on the brink of" finding the other teams ,yet not actually have found them.This could change the attitude of C3B a lot ,as for them with the vision of attacking an other team on an other continent with their wasted UU the need for us as good ally would be more than obvious ,as extra strentgh to kill f 1 team their and as informer of the sea route.
3) to ,unfairly if nessecary ,point out every incompetance possible of radical party members in chat sessions ,taunt them if nessecary and then bash them if they take the bait ,while respecting the moderate party members.
4) by maybe asking pro-alliance moderate party members what we can do for them to strenghten their position.

If i can think of other idea's ill post them.Anyway good work Emp Napoleon ,keep on the intelligence gathering.

However ,most optimal may be that cassino would win the ellection ,BUT that then we can convince him to stay as ally with the bluf poker notion that we have found the other continent (or actually having found it) and that we then have a comman enemy to fight against ,best in a 3-way alliance.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Duck:
1) C3B already knows we claim the border area. And they aren't very happy about it. They are going to have a vote on it and if they reject it they will come with a counter proposal.
2) I like it. But it is risky. Sooner or later they will find out we were lying.
3) Some (Hygro for instance) wants Cassino to win. Let us first determine who we want to win the C3B elections and then take action to "influence" their elections.
4) See 3). But I do like to ask as it is a good way to gather information.

 

[Matrix]

Great job, Emp! How do you know all this?

So...
The alliance is less certain. This means we shouldn't give too much away. We should be dealing in an honest way: don't give a tech and expect you'll get the other later. Also because the more they owe us, the more reason they have to stop the alliance (i.e. vote for Cassino). Also we must prepare for battle.

Still it is in our interest to keep the alliance and let the other two fight it out. I'm not very positive about the outcome of a war between us, even if they have an unexperienced president.

We can try to convince them about the usefulness of this alliance by showing them the prospect of a place in the final by not killing each other, but by letting the other two fight it out. The both of us can help one of the two to destroy the other (preferably help CGA to destroy CDZ, but the opposite is probably the only possible solution).

Finally, I'm glad we have a direct democracy and no party system!

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

2) I like it. But it is risky. Sooner or later they will find out we were lying.

Yes ,but you don't understand.It's bluf poker for ellection purposes ,but it doesn't exclude a reason to point out that it was supposedly a "mistake of us" to see a supposedly "sizable island in the middle of the ocean" as the beginning of the new continent.
See we say that we have found what seems as the other continent ,withought trace of the actual civ's yet (quite understandable ,finding the other continent doesn't mean that there wouldn't be open land there just like on our continent) ,but that we are quite sure that that must be the other continent.Ten or fifteen turns later however we notice that we made a "mistake" and that it was actually and island.
Atmeast ,if it doesn't put a certain party possible in power ,it would win us time to preppare.But it's deffinatly a strong factor to influence their ellections with IMO.

But it's still my oppinion that we should avoid war on this continent at all costs ,and let's hope that we actually find that other continent.

Another small note thogh ,are you sure that this Cassino isn't actually named Cassio?Cassino doesn't seems to exists on the C3B member list ,cassio does.If his name is still Cassino ,then you can expect that this person is brand spanking new to this game ,wich may as well be probably given his 1 man party and his stance to this alliance ,in that case he's a total demo gaming noob ,and it's possible that he is very unreliable for his team meaning that he could be absent once and awhile.

I am happy that Matrix is of the same oppinion that the alliance is in our best interrest ,and ill add to that that we should point out that (if we don't find the other continent) that they are with building the lighthouse well able to find the other continent where they can direct their agression on ,as thus we should point out to them that at this stage a war between our nations would be a dumb thing to do (wich it really is) ,and that we best as alliance hope that the nations on the other continent go to war with eachother or that we can mutually attack one of the nations on the other continent by finding their location ,but that war between our nations would be a risky matter for both of us ,as we bth have certain millitary advantage's. (they their UU we have SoZ)

Finally, I'm glad we have a direct democracy and no party system!

i second that.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

Wonderfull intelligence gathering Emp. Napoleon.
I'm glad to see that we are using team intelligence as another strentgh towards our team ,a strentgh that not many teams are likely to share with us.

Great job, Emp! How do you know all this?
Sad to hear that the Cat will most likely be put out of her function ,i presume she was a very good source of intelligence?

I know all this because I am in constant communitactions with the C3B team members on MSN. I like to talk to them, they are interesting people, and every now and then I slip in a question. They think nothing of it becuase they think I am just a silly 14-year old who just is a little curious

Cat is leaving, but she will stil be active, so I will maybe get a tiny bit more of info from her. Also, that means someone will be takeing her place, so information will still come in.

Now as to idea's on the situation:
Ill never prefer war with C3B ,from a strategical point of view it's never in our advantage ,since we are with 4 leftover teams it would be beter if the last nessecary civ killed gets eliminated on the other continent rather than ours ,technicly we and C3B don't need to go to war nessecarely to survive into the next round and as thus it would be more optimal if we wouldn't.

This should be the foundation of how we deal with C3B, I agree totaly.

Propositions would be 1) to stall yet again the talks on the border atter until after the ellection ,if C3B will hear that we want all that land in te buffer zone while they are still in ellections it will strenghten the position of the radical party's ,as well as severely limmiting our chances to get a favourable deal there.

Well, then we may go to war with C3B, and that would not be good. I really do not want to risk it with Cassino

2) To bluf poker a bit about finding the other continent: We could inform C3B that we have found a passage to the other continent and "are on the brink of" finding the other teams ,yet not actually have found them.This could change the attitude of C3B a lot ,as for them with the vision of attacking an other team on an other continent with their wasted UU the need for us as good ally would be more than obvious ,as extra strentgh to kill f 1 team their and as informer of the sea route.

C3B has many boats, and will ask for where the passage is. And I don't like lieing, it causes problems and is always a mess. But if we could solve the problem of showing them it, I am all for it.

3) to ,unfairly if nessecary ,point out every incompetance possible of radical party members in chat sessions ,taunt them if nessecary and then bash them if they take the bait ,while respecting the moderate party members.
4) by maybe asking pro-alliance moderate party members what we can do for them to strenghten their position.

#3 Not a good Idea. In C3B citizens do not talk in chats that much, it is the ambassidor's job. And also, I don't want to cause a problem with either party, or else they may hate us more.
#4 I do ask them occasionally if there is, and if there is I try to make it happen. Maybe I should ask more often

However ,most optimal may be that cassino would win the ellection ,BUT that then we can convince him to stay as ally with the bluf poker notion that we have found the other continent (or actually having found it) and that we then have a comman enemy to fight against ,best in a 3-way allianceE

Good Idea, but it may not work. But that would be the ideal situation, but Cassino has already promised his people about his pro-war stance, so I do not think he will change it. Elections are going on right now, so If we are going to make a move we need to do soon.

Another small note thogh ,are you sure that this Cassino isn't actually named Cassio?Cassino doesn't seems to exists on the C3B member list ,cassio does.If his name is still Cassino ,then you can expect that this person is brand spanking new to this game ,wich may as well be probably given his 1 man party and his stance to this alliance ,in that case he's a total demo gaming noob ,and it's possible that he is very unreliable for his team meaning that he could be absent once and awhile.

I think I just made a mistake, I will check my notes when I get home from school later today.

 

[Cheetah]

I know all this because I am in constant communitactions with the C3B team members on MSN. I like to talk to them, they are interesting people, and every now and then I slip in a question. They think nothing of it becuase they think I am just a silly 14-year old who just is a little curious

You just lost my potential vote for CoIA, CoFA, CoMA and JotC! I don't think we can afford letting you go from that ambassador-position!

As for C3Bs election, if Cassi(n)o will be going to war no mather what, we really should get the moderates elected.

Which means we should tell them we might have found a way to the other continent and if so we should start planning a joint invasion, and we could have a poll about sharing the borderland between us and C3B (Of course, such a vote would not come to the conclusion that we want to share the land, but C3B hopefully won't know that for sure. And the poll will not close before C3Bs election is over...).

Or do we want Cassi(n)o as their leader, probably choosing to start a war, but he will be a worse player than Master of Civ, so we will have a greater chance of winning?

The bottom line is this: Probably the two other Civs have a strong alliance to attack one of us when they find us. If we want to attack one of them, both we and C3B need to be as strong as possible. That would mean C3B electing Master of Civ.

 

[akots]

As it stands now and for the next probably 50 turns, we can survive the war with C3B. We would not be able to win by eliminating them or even harming substantially but they stand no chance in trying to kill us as well. After 50 turns, I'm afraid that we will be outresearched by them due to their cheap libraries, better expansion and scientific trait. Also, we desperately need their incense. Remeber that this is an Emperor level game with only a single content citizen. For now, in Monarchy, having a single luxury, we can keep only size 6 cities with 3 MP and 0% luxury rate. This is not enough for normal development. I'm surprized with the cruelty of the mapmakers though. If we and C3B have only 2 luxuries, does this mean that the other continent has all the rest 6? Or there are only 5 total luxuries in the game with 3 clusters of 3 luxuries there? If there are six, we are dead.

 

[classical_hero]

It does seem that war will be upon us very soon. Uncertainty is our worst enemy. Thanks to Emp, we are getting very good advice. My worry is that after the elections they won't be as open to us and that mean's we won't be able to keep track of them and that could spell trouble. Unfortunately, war might be forced upon us, and if we have a weak player as an opponent, then there is hope for us.
BTW, how do I get to see the save?

 

[akots]

... BTW, how do I get to see the save?

Please submit you e-mail to the mailing list. You can post it here or in the General Info or pm to me.

 

[Matrix]

If there are six, we are dead.

What's that smily doing there?

Anyway, I think we all get the picture now. I only don't think we have much influence in the outcome of their election. We can try though, but shouldn't give up too much (i.e. lie) because that might bring us to war after all...

 

[deshelbr]

First of all, this is incredible work Emp. Very, very good job.

2nd of all, this is what I meant when I said they were "flakey". Not in their ability to play Civ3, but in their diplomacy with us. We can't count on them to keep backing us.

I think we CAN have an influence on their election. Some people might remember in the other multi-site game when Apolyton flat our insisted that Goonie NOT be appointed their ambassador when he had all but won the election for that position. The internal rivals of the politicians we oppose may use our opposition to their advantage. Which is also our advantage.

We seam to be freakin' FARRRRRR from the other two nations without using a suicide route. Akots, who I'm taking as the authority on combat, says it is statistically impossible to wipe out C3B on our own. But I don't see how we could possibly get to the other nations with a reasonable force before our Ancient Calvary become obsolete.

If we can't conquer C3B, C3B doesn't seem like they will permanantly ally with us, and we can't get to the other nations before AC's are out-dated, what are we going to do with our SOZ (deterrance?) and what is our long-term plan? Are we just attempting to hold out and hope that someone else gets eliminated first?

 

[deshelbr]

According to C3B there are no horses on our continent, that means no fast -retreating- units for C3B.

And should we really be believing them on this? If we were them, and we were premeditating eliminating us, wouldn't we say there were no horses on the continent even if it was a lie or we didn't know?