C3C Scenario/Mod: Rising Sun

[Pawel]

I will make the fixes as soon as I get home! Iron on the fortress hill is a great idea! Make sure you don't start a new game without it! And feel free to try out any changes you want. You are co-creator, after all.

Part of the longer loading time is, as you say, that there is more of everything, which also makes games slower between turns. On the first load, however, I think that the number of different unit and perhaps building animations also adds to the time. As you may have noticed, a unit animation is not loaded unless the unit is actually on the map. The reason for this must be to speed up the initial load. The drawback of this solution is that scenarios have to be tested with all units on the map before release, or a fatal error in the pediaicons.txt file can go undetected and cause a crash later...

 

[Pawel]

OK, I have now uploaded a version with the fixes. I also moved iron resources so that the Persians have it in 600 AD and the Byzantines in 1200 AD.

 

[silver 2039]

I need 1.22 to play it? I'm not sure if I can download the pacth since I'm using someone else's computer.

 

[Pawel]

Unfortunately you do. I know it is big. Something like 24 MB. Well, you can always welcome to try it later when you have better access! Based on some tests I made playing as Japan, England, China, and Scandinavia, the 1200 AD is the most interesting of the three scenarios. But then perhaps that is the way it should be - it would be a pity if things just went downhill.

 

[Mr Black]

Originally posted by Pawel
I will make the fixes as soon as I get home! Iron on the fortress hill is a great idea! Make sure you don't start a new game without it! And feel free to try out any changes you want. You are co-creator, after all. ..............

Now that you mention that, there is something that I do to every scenario and game I play. I hadn't mentioned this before because I've been playing with this change since Civ3 came out! It's second nature to me.

I change the HP's for combat experience.
Conscript = 2
Regular = 4
Veteran = 6
Elite = 8

It reduces the chances of upsets, but still allows for some upsets to occur.

Because of that change, I also have to give +1 Rate fo Fire, to every Arty and Aircraft.

 

[Pawel]

This is actually very interesting. Giving an extra hp to a unit will be much easier (and clearly visible). The fact that combats takes a little longer is just fun. I guess, however, that all bombard rate of fire has to be doubled and not just +1, whether by land, sea, or air. In the case of units with a zero range bombard capability I think they only get one shot. The guideline there is that the bombard strength is half the attack, but one could perhaps double the strength instead of the rate?

 

[Mr Black]

I guess a +2 Rate of Fire increase for Sea and Air units is fine, since they will help the AI as well.

For land units I make it +1 only because the AI never uses them anyway.

I've started again with the Arabs, but nothing notable to report yet! But soon, very soon the infidels in Persia and Egypt will fall to Islamic sword, God willing. ALLAH AKHBAR!!!

 

[Pawel]

It is a pity the AI doesn't understand how to use artillery other than to defend cities. Actually, I gave a piece to both China and Korea to make sure that at least there would be some in use. However, just adding +1 would destroy my concept for Asian artillery, which has lower attack values but higher rate. For instance, the fire cannon has bombard 6 (as a trebuchet), but a rate of 2, instead of 8 and 1 respectively for an ordinary cannon. Later units such as the Grand battery as well as ordinary artillery also have higher basic rates...

Anyway, it will be exciting to see if the Arab conquest is more successful this time! My personal feeling is that despite lacking both Immortals and even iron, the Egyptians are at least as tough as the Persians. The War Chariots are fearsome weapons in the desert... Or so I've heard. I look forward to hear about your strategy!

 

[Mr Black]

Well I’m finding the Arabs are quite the challenge at Monarch level. But as you know from my first game as Japan, I’m not the most advanced civ player out there. So maybe it’s just me.

While I gathered my troops to take on Egypt, the Zulus declared war on them first. This only made the job easier, as the War Chariots were sent south to battle the Impis around where you put the Bantu Barbarians. I made swift gains in Egypt and connected all of Arabia with roads. This was late in the ancient age.

My neighbors, Egypt, Zulu, Carthage, Persia and India were all somewhat close by in techs. With the Persians well ahead I think. However, while I was about to enter the Middle Ages (a few techs away from the Ansar) the Chinese came storming in with CAVALRY!!! (6.3.3) NUTZ!!!

I was fighting them with my best unit the auto-produced Ancient Cavalry (3.2.2) And this was before the Persians joined in.

Needless to say, I could not hold on.

 

[Pawel]

What a horrible turn of events! But I am a little surprised since the Chinese have hardly been changed from the 200 BC scenario, where they seemed to be reasonably well contained. I was almost worried that they would prove too wimpy now that all their neighbours were stronger... It would be very interesting to see what the global situation looked like. Perhaps there had been some major war in the Far East from which the Chinese emerged victorious?

In any case, in the final release of version 2.53 I have made the Arabs a little stronger, letting them start with some Ancient Cavalry in Africa. I have also changed some AI priorities so that the Arabs will build offensive units often, while the Germans will not build settlers. I think your playing experience is very relevant, though. By reloading one can always find the optimal path, but then one should perhaps play at a higher level.

Perhaps the Arabs would have to be beefed up a little more to be a real menace. They could, for instance, start with Memphis (Cairo) as well as Jerusalem, which would give them the Pyramids? On the other hand, maybe the AI would avoid an early war altogether and just settle central Africa?

I would very much like to incorporate as much as possible of the lessons from this session into version 2.54, so some more general feedback would be great!

 

[Mr Black]

I tend to use only 1 name for all saved games, thus unfortunately I've resaved it over already. I should really use more names.

It was around the year 1280 when the Chinese Cavs first appeared. I’m not sure what that means. Was I too slow, or the Chinese fast.

The Arabs are not necessarily weak, especially compared with the Egyptians whom I think are weak. I could have conquered Egypt and probably the Zulus quite easily, if I wanted to. I have suspicions that the Persians were very advanced, although their units didn't show it.

During the first game with the Arabs, the Egyptians were tough because I underestimated them.

Looking at the playback, the Chinese had not battled anybody. They did however squeeze India out of a lot of territory with their settlers. That’s probably the biggest change. Usually the Indians and Chinese end up similar in size, but this time the Chinese dwarfed the Indians. I guess they wanted expand some more.

 

[Pawel]

Maybe the Chinese had Military Tradition, but were missing other medieval advances, and the difference was not as huge as it might have appeared? Anyway, I have improved the Indian inital awareness of the possibilities in South East Asia, and hopefully they will be able to keep up with the Chinese in the 600 AD and 1200 AD scenarios. Still, peaceful development and technology trading may lead to quicker progress than conquest...

I have given Cairo to the Arabs in the 600 AD scenario. Depite a few other minor buffs, this makes the Egyptians weaker. Still it reflects the state of the Christian kingdoms in North Africa in those days - who surrendered rather than facing the Arab wrath.

Of course, if you really want to win a very high level game (emperor or higher), I recommend the Mongols in 1200 AD. They start with 10 Keshiks, and if you put the luxury rate high enough to have all the population working, and use the rest for money, the world will be at your mercy! Fortunately (?) the AI never seems to make such coordinated efforts... Personally I think that, besides the Japanese, the English are most fun in those days, though. And that is not just because the have Robin Hood!

 

[Pawel]

The changes above are implemented in version 2.54.

 

[Vasileius]

It's very good scenarios , but ...

Persia and Byzantine Empire weren't existing in 200 BC ...
Rome conquered the Greek mainland at 146 B.C. ,54 years after 200 B.C. , and Persia was already occupied 100 years before , by Alexander the Great...

It looks like a 200 A.D. scenario ...

 

[Pawel]

Thank you very much!

And you are absolutely right! The 200 BC scenario is not 200 BC on the whole map. The date line is adjusted to the Japanese perspective, so that what they see is right at the time they get there. This approach is one of the main innovations of these scenarios. Others tend to be very right in the beginning but quickly get very wrong. These are reasonably right most of the time.

However, Persia refers to the lands ruled by the Hellenistic Seleukids, the later Sassanides, as well as their successors. Unfortunately, within the framework of the current game it is not possible to reflect such changes in the ruling class. The Byzantines, who lasted until 1453, are really critical in this setting, and one thus needs to to start with a divided Rome. On the other hand, it is nice to still have Carthage. In the later scanarios they are replaced by a much more generic Africa. But more importantly, the situation in 200 AD would be different with respect to China, and this is more important from a Japanese perspective.

Considering the pace of the early game, with 10 years per turn, I also think that the exact starting date is not a huge problem. It is much harder to predict the pace of technological development, and after a lot of testing I think that it is at least reasonably correct. The closer to our times we get the easier it is to get the starting conditions right and interesting at the same time, though. In the case of the 600 AD and 1200 AD scenarios the situation in the old world is fairly accurate.

It would be very interesting to hear how it feels when you start playing, so please post your experiences!

 

[Vasileius]

I played the 1200 AD scenario as Japan , and It was exciting ...
Thanks to the units near (underpowered , I think) Korea, I had a strong base , very early in the game , which gave me the chance to attack ( and conquer) some of the strongest civs of the scenario : Mongolia , China , India ( Also Turkey and Korea ) ... Following a Japanese invasion in the West Coast , I conquered the Iroquois ...
The Iroquois had a Mutual Protection Pact with the Americans , the Americans with the English and the English with the Byzantines ... It was like a WW ...
I invaded Australia , conquered Brisbane and York ( dam*ed settlers ) and we had a peace treaty with the English ...
In the East front , I conquered , Nicaea and Constantinople and we had a peace treaty with the Byzantines ... But the Americans were refusing my envoys and I ...annexed them ...

... My prime tactic , was to conquer as may cities at 2-3 turns and then request some small cities for peace , and then declare war again ... Muhahahahaha ...

That's my experience of the scenario ...

As for the 200BC , It's ok , I understand the importance of the Japanese perspective ...
Good Job !

 

[Pawel]

Thank you for the interesting feedback! I am glad you enjoyed the scenario!

You are right that the Koreans are a little underpowered. In the earlier scenarios they start with a strategically placed settler, but that place is now in Mongol hands. Perhaps I should give them a few more units at the beginning so that they can defend themselves better? Did you notice any other balancing improvements that could be made? And which year did you conquer America and became King of the World? Did you have any chance of seeing some of the modern units in action, or was your devastating offensive just too quick?

 

[Pawel]

In version 2.55 I have made Korea a little stronger as suggested. Unfortunately I haven't managed to separately upload a new version of the text file listing the versions, but the game files are updated.

 

[Thundercow]

Pawel,
may I use the map for 1200 AD in a scenario that I'm working on? I'm interested in using it because I don't know much about the populations at the time and because your map is really quite good for my purposes.
It's an alternate history scenario. It's based on Kim Stanley Robinson's book "The Years of Rice and Salt". Basically, the premise is that Europe was for all practical purposes destroyed by the Black Plague, leaving China, India, the Islamic world, and the Mongols to fight over world dominance.
The change is radical enough to make your setup nearly unrecognizable after I'm done adapting it.

I'm not interested in using your units and special wonders (though that may change), I just want the right to use the map and your city placement.

Thanks.

 

[Pawel]

Thundercow,
You are welcome to use as much or as little of the scenario as you want! Of course, the basic map, which has only been changed slightly, is by Kal-El.

As far as units and wonders go, you will not need them in their original form. Still, it can make sense to keep those that use graphics from the scenarios, and just change their properties and descriptions in the civilopedia.txt file. It is a very size effective way to add flavor to the scenario.

Another detail which is interesting to note is that in the 1200 AD scenario some civilizations, e.g. the Germans, have an AI directive set never to build settlers. This is to avoid treks across Russia into the Far East.

I wish you luck with your scenario, and look forward to see the result!