Can games be won beyond Noble without...

[BumpNsubz]

I have been a die hard fan of Civ since it came out. I never have checked online for strategy or tips to play the hardest levels until civ 4 warlords. But I'm finding out that unless I use the CS slingshot and other "whip" methods, I don't stand a chance. Is there something I'm missing? Or is this the way it has been intended for the harder levels? I did use the CS method in one of my emperor games (since the 2.08 patch which required mathmatics) to gain beuracracy early on to win, but is it really needed? I'd rather play like I did in early Civ's that didn't require 3 hours of calculations on surplus hammers and, imo, cheating by slingshotting tech's....

Is this just me, or am I missing something?

 

[PMabey]

You certainly dont have to do a civil service slingshot to win on any level. You do need to be more aggressive and start more wars as you increase the difficulty level though, maybe thats your problem.

 

[CivSetä]

Early war is essential to survive in higher levels, up to Monarch builders still have a small change, but after that... no way! You really can't rely on any slingshots, and have to concentrate on 1 early wonder, if you really want it. (You don't need any, though.) I'm just starting to feel comfortable on emperor level (2.08 patch) after few wins (should I move up?), but I can't think any victory without an early war. I still play on Monarch if aiming for builder tactics.

Beeline to BW (or maybe AH if playing Egypt or Persia), keep your warrior/scout alive while exploring area nearby, and build worker-warrior-settler. (Or workboat-settler if starting on coast.) With chop and whip you can still usually beat AI to best city spot with resource(s), and that's all you need.* Connect resource, build barracks in both cities, build a stack of attackers and go for your nearest neighbour. Always take his/her capital first (could be hard later when there is 4-8 whipped archers) and keep it, maybe second city also if it is good enough, and raze the rest.

*If you really want a wonder, you better build a third city to allow decent flow of new units while spending 1000+ years in building those pyramids. If I have Gold/Gems/lots of fish in my fat cross I can try Oracle as CoL is very useful as you can keep more cities. Especially Organized leaders should try that, because you can whip courthouse in captures cities with just 4 population.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

I'd rather play like I did in early Civ's that didn't require 3 hours of calculations on surplus hammers and, imo, cheating by slingshotting tech's....

Well its certainly not a cheat because the ai will do the same thing. But as for your question...I rarely do the cs slingshot and win more often then not on Monarch.

 

[Elandal]

I've started skipping Oracle lately. Unless I have some reason to work the religious tree, that is. Haven't noticed real problems: I get up to Alphabet earlier than before, and the hammers might have gone to early library, extra settler, and a few extra axes. Although my axes have a tendency to sit within my cultural borders, checking the papers of those coming in or going out, instead of roaming the world whacking others.

 

[BumpNsubz]

I've started skipping Oracle lately. Unless I have some reason to work the religious tree, that is. Haven't noticed real problems: I get up to Alphabet earlier than before, and the hammers might have gone to early library, extra settler, and a few extra axes. Although my axes have a tendency to sit within my cultural borders, checking the papers of those coming in or going out, instead of roaming the world whacking others.

I'm glad you said that. With the introduction to relegion in this version, I didn't know how important it was to have one right away if I don't play a civ that has mysticism right off the bat. I'll try that, thanks.

 

[BumpNsubz]

You certainly dont have to do a civil service slingshot to win on any level. You do need to be more aggressive and start more wars as you increase the difficulty level though, maybe thats your problem.

I don't usually start wars until late in the game, thanks for the tip!

 

[Trojan Sheep]

There's really no reason to bother with very specific strategies up until monarch, and monarch isn't really all that bad either unless you're playing with the new AI patch

The big thing you should be looking at when moving past noble is fundamentals not necessarily specific "failable" strategies that your situation may make impossible and thus cause you to waste a lot of time and resources. Take a look at what you like to do most, and find some very basic strategies on these forums for making those routes better.

If you're a war lover, then as someone pointed out early war can be a great way to get a big empire and a few techs if you have alphabet. Find some copper or iron ASAP and start churning out a military then find someone to use it on

If you're a builder, check for ways to optimize your building/tile improvement/city specialization strategy here on the forums, slavery is a good solid civic for early building (and late for that matter), I wouldn't try to do fancy stuff like maximizing the overflow or what not, but just keep in mind that its a tool you have at your disposal and make use of it when you feel it will be useful, same with forest chops. Also take a look at which buildings you prioritize, if the city is already healthy an aqueduct may not be the best choice, just look at each building and say "do I need this yet?" If not, you may even think about building research, or more units to keep your empire safe from the likes of Monty, if you're not at your unit cap (or above) you are inviting danger.

If you're a diplomat, take a look at your tech trading strategies, play around with sicking war monger AIs on the tech leaders to slow them down so you can take the lead, or embroiling your enemies in useless wars with far off neighbors so they never come knocking on your own door. Read up on how to best make friends with the "right" civs, and always remember that invariably you'll have to choose a side or end up all alone on your own side.

I'm by no means an expert player, but I've gotten wins without using a specific trick or strategy just by having a good solid empire, and a victory in mind that I work towards.

 

[BumpNsubz]

Thanks Trojan Sheep, that makes more since to me to not try "tricks". I don't see how I won without using any kind of whip method in the past, but from all I've read, the AI uses it too.

What's the new AI patch? Are you talking about "A better AI" mod?

 

[Trojan Sheep]

Yep that'd be the one, I've been having a blast with it personally. In a recent game Monty started going for a domination win from what I could tell, he was on the other side of a giant pangea from me taking bites out of his neighbors in small skirmishes, and I made the mistake of thinking he couldn't take on three other civs (I was hoping to knock him down a few notches), he lost one city in the ensuing war, but took over all of Mansa Musa and a good chunk of china as well before peace finally came around. I ended up scrapping the game because it was really a testing ground for some xml changes I was doing which turned out for the worst, but it was fun watching Monty have his heyday when he so often ends up ground into the dirt on most of my games

As for the whip, it has a lot of value, but you can get by without it if you either don't want to bother with it or would rather not for thematic reasons (sometimes I like being a kind benevolent leader to my people... sometimes). The big thing when not using slavery is to make sure you have at least 1 more unit per city than you normally would (since you won't be able to do emergency whips), and make sure you have plenty of workers so your population doesn't end up working relatively useless tiles. My personal strategy with the whip is if a pop point is working an unimproved forest tile or its equivalent then it's better off...

Other than that I just save it for crucial improvements or emergency military builds. On marathon the happiness penalty lasts a long time, so I generally don't bother with it if I don't feel it's totally necessary.

 

[khumak]

I whip all of the early growth + production buildings but after my cities get to about size 6-10 I don't whip much anymore unless I am exceeding the happyness cap.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Did I read the OP right?

You pulled off a post 2.08 patch CS slingshot on emperor (with mathematics as an added prereq) and doubted that you would win that game without the slingshot? Sounds like you already had the early tech speed without the slingshot to win that game. That slingshot may have let you run away with the game but it wasn't necessary for victory. You can play almost any game to victory if you know how to tech fast enough to pull off a v2.08 CS slingshot in a Emperor game.

The Oracle works as designed, so I doubt it is cheating by calling it a slingshot. Oh, and whipping doesn't help like that in every case. I almost never whip anymore because it seems to hurt production more than it helps unless you micromanage the crap out of it.

I lose every game where I build a unit in a science city at the same time that I put a science building in a unit production city. Maybe you don't win because you aren't focused on victory on that particular game. I win almost every game I actually play to win. When I play for fun, I win a lot less often.

 

[Elandal]

I don't think calling something a slingshot is the same as calling it a cheat. Several free tech cases are called slingshots: MC/CoL slings with Oracle, Astronomy/Nationhood/other slings with Liberalism, some specific cases of lighbulbing technologies - Machinery slingshot using Oracle->MC then bulbing Machinery with GE comes to mind. For some reason, lighbulbing GS's on the liberalism path (Philosophy, Paper, Education) is not called slingshot, but I guess that is because the whole path is considered, not a single tech there.

 

[Antilogic]

Slingshotting is not cheating whatsoever--cheating is going into World Builder and adding Modern Armor in 4000 BCE. Now a slingshot...that's maximizing the potential benefit of a free technology the game gives you.

However, going back to the OP, I have won several times on Prince and on Monarch without rushing for any early wonders in particular (although if I have stone or marble I consider building one or two), and without the CS slingshot. It's a matter of good diplomacy and bloodletting.

 

[BumpNsubz]

Did I read the OP right?

You pulled off a post 2.08 patch CS slingshot on emperor (with mathematics as an added prereq) and doubted that you would win that game without the slingshot? Sounds like you already had the early tech speed without the slingshot to win that game. That slingshot may have let you run away with the game but it wasn't necessary for victory. You can play almost any game to victory if you know how to tech fast enough to pull off a v2.08 CS slingshot in a Emperor game.

The Oracle works as designed, so I doubt it is cheating by calling it a slingshot. Oh, and whipping doesn't help like that in every case. I almost never whip anymore because it seems to hurt production more than it helps unless you micromanage the crap out of it.

I lose every game where I build a unit in a science city at the same time that I put a science building in a unit production city. Maybe you don't win because you aren't focused on victory on that particular game. I win almost every game I actually play to win. When I play for fun, I win a lot less often.

I feel so stupid.....noble, not emperor. I normally play emperor and read about the cs slingshot so I tried it on noble. So used to playing emperor, it didn't even dawn on me that I had changed the difficulty level. But yeah that was post 2.08 patch. Doesn't seem so great now

 

[khumak]

Did I read the OP right?

You pulled off a post 2.08 patch CS slingshot on emperor (with mathematics as an added prereq) and doubted that you would win that game without the slingshot?

I don't know about emperor but I've pulled off the CS slingshot post 2.08 + Blake's AI mod on Monarch. I used Elizabeth and had a coastal start. Research path was Mysticysm, Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, Math, CoL, CS. Initial build order was WBx3, worker (for mines), library, settler, Oracle. Admittedly my start was above average. Three seafood specials, founded on plains hill, 1 forested plains hill in fat cross, 2 unforested plains hills in fat cross. So I had tons of food, pretty decent commerce without cottages, and plenty of hammers without needing BW.

 

[BumpNsubz]

I don't know about emperor but I've pulled off the CS slingshot post 2.08 + Blake's AI mod on Monarch. I used Elizabeth and had a coastal start. Research path was Mysticysm, Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, Math, CoL, CS. Initial build order was WBx3, worker (for mines), library, settler, Oracle. Admittedly my start was above average. Three seafood specials, founded on plains hill, 1 forested plains hill in fat cross, 2 unforested plains hills in fat cross. So I had tons of food, pretty decent commerce without cottages, and plenty of hammers without needing BW.

I was on noble....I normally play emperor and forgot I changed the level while trying out the cs slingshot.

 

[khumak]

Okay I just ran across a crazy start last night on Monarch where I'm pretty sure I could have snagged the CS Slingshot on Emperor. Not sure about Deity, never tried it. Playing Elizabeth (Fin/Phi). Coastal start with 1 fish on the coast, 1 cow, 1 corn, and THREE GOLD MINES!! I've never seen such a ridiculously high commerce start before. It was nuts.

 

[BumpNsubz]

Okay I just ran across a crazy start last night on Monarch where I'm pretty sure I could have snagged the CS Slingshot on Emperor. Not sure about Deity, never tried it. Playing Elizabeth (Fin/Phi). Coastal start with 1 fish on the coast, 1 cow, 1 corn, and THREE GOLD MINES!! I've never seen such a ridiculously high commerce start before. It was nuts.

only time I see those is when I'm capturing another civ's capital. Nice start!

 

[Mutineer]

JUst for information, On Deity AI garanty to build Oracle around 2000BC.