Can Louis XIV be beaten?

[Big J Money]

I was just wondering if it is even possible to beat Louis in a culture race. The Industry and Culture bonuses he gets seems to make him the absolute perfect solution if you want to when with a cultural victory. Obviously, you can beat him with any other victory, and his main downside is that he seems to only be able to win with a cultural victory.

=$= Big J Money =$=

 

[Varelse]

Good tip. He's my neighbor in the game I'm playing now and I've been trying to decide if I should destroy him or try to ally with him. Now I know. Louis is toast.

 

[ShootTheMoon]

I just killed him in my game, he was my neighbour.

 

[Uty]

It is certainly possible. You see, that 2 culture per turn isn't so hot for a cultural victory. In a normal style game you need 50,000 culture in three cities to win. With four hundred turns, the capitol will only have 800 culture more than a non-creative civ's capitol.

Louis is industrious, and that does make him a contender. However if you pick a civ that is industrious or philisophical you're a contender too.

 

[Zhahz]

So far I haven't seen any AI try anything except a space race victory, which is kind of annoying. Of course, I'm only on my 4th game because it's taking me forever to finish any one game, so who knows what they might try in future games.

 

[walkerjks]

Absolutely. The creative advantage is mainly good for the initial land grab. The incremental culture needed for a cultural win is nice, but it's not dominating (even when you factor all the +% bonuses you will have towards the end of the game).

As an example, in the game I just won, the worst of my 3 legendary cities was generating 784 culture a turn (the best was doing 1149). My creative trait (I was playing Catherine) only contributed +8 culture/turn to the slow city. So it's effectively a 1% advantage at the end. Figure maybe a 3 to 5% advantage over the course of the game.

If someone with spiritual manages to get 1 additional religion, they will get more culture bonuses from the temple and monastary and additional +50% cathedrals.

Someone with financial might have a decided commerce advantage at the end of the game, giving them an overwhelming cultural output when they put the culture slider on 100%. More and more, I am of the opinion that financial is the surest way to a cultural win.

 

[Big J Money]

It is certainly possible. You see, that 2 culture per turn isn't so hot for a cultural victory. In a normal style game you need 50,000 culture in three cities to win. With four hundred turns, the capitol will only have 800 culture more than a non-creative civ's capitol.

Louis is industrious, and that does make him a contender. However if you pick a civ that is industrious or philisophical you're a contender too.

Well, I was assuming all things equal. In other words, if he is opposing another industrious opponent, he would at least be always +2 culture ahead; all other things considered. With a total of something like +100% culture in one city (and that would happene eventually for a cultural victory minded chap), that +2 has turned into a +4.

I guess if my question is can he be beaten, then the answer is unequivicoally, "Yes", because it depends on the skill of the player. But, you have to assume perfect conditions for a question of theory. Another question I might ask is, "If you wish to win by cultural victory, why pick anyone but Louis?"

=$=

 

[Big J Money]

If someone with spiritual manages to get 1 additional religion, they will get more culture bonuses from the temple and monastary and additional +50% cathedrals.

Someone with financial might have a decided commerce advantage at the end of the game, giving them an overwhelming cultural output when they put the culture slider on 100%. More and more, I am of the opinion that financial is the surest way to a cultural win.

Ah, thanks for pointing out some specifics. For one thing, I didn't realize you would get bonuses for having buildings of multiple religious types. Seems to me, that's strange, but it means Sid accounted for it in balance testing.

And... paying for culture. That is interesting. It means you can really explode in the late game. That is such a subtle yet extreme change from Civ III, my head is actually spinning right now. I wonder if they really balance-tested that one hard. It sort of makes me think of America and its media influence throughout the world.

=$=

 

[Romanichine]

The Creative trait is not one of the best if you want to achieve a quick Culture victory. It gives only +2 culture to every city which means a lot of culture for a big empire, but remember that only the 3 best cities counts for that type of victory. Thus it really helps you by contributing +6 Culture every turn, which is not much, really.

Spiritual leaders can beat Louis to the religion races and become a culture powerhouse with cheap temples and Cathedrals, Mosques, (etc) all giving +50% culture to a city.

Philosophical leaders are also much better than creative ones in the culture race, being able to pop twice more great people. If they plan a culture win, great artists (+4000 culture) will outdraw this +6 culture /turn early advantage. Not to mention that Great engineers will put a good fight for ownership of key wonders.

As I see it, the 3 best traits to achieve a culture win are, in no particular order as I can't decide which one is best:

1. Industrious
2. Spiritual
3. Phisolophical

Thus I would favor any leader with two of these traits over Louis XIV in a cultural matchup. They are: Gandhi (Spi/Ind) and Saladin (Phi/Spi)

That being said, I'd even take a good warlike leader (Napoleon or Alexander) over any of those since nobody can win by culture if they lose their high-culture cities

--
Roman

 

[Big J Money]

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I think I may switch to playing Napoleon, since it would be real nice to have that military edge to attack/defend to cement my possession of the three big cities.

=$=

 

[dh_epic]

Creative is helpful, but not the be all and end all. In actuality, Creative civs tend to be better for expansion. The +2 to culture really doesn't help that much in the long run.

Industrious is key for wonders.
But because cathedrals are so important for religion, being a civ with mysticism helps a lot.
Philosophical allows you to pump out lots of great artists.

Everyone really has a shot at cultural victory if you prioritize it. Wonders are helpful, but if you get a significant tech lead, you don't need industrious to grab the big cultural wonders.

 

[JavalTigar]

As I see it, the 3 best traits to achieve a culture win are, in no particular order as I can't decide which one is best:

1. Industrious
2. Spiritual
3. Phisolophical

Close:

Replace Spiritual with Financial and you've got my vote. The ability to crank the culture slider all the way and still be writing checks for everything can not be over looked.

 

[Nyvin]

It is certainly possible. You see, that 2 culture per turn isn't so hot for a cultural victory. In a normal style game you need 50,000 culture in three cities to win. With four hundred turns, the capitol will only have 800 culture more than a non-creative civ's capitol.

Louis is industrious, and that does make him a contender. However if you pick a civ that is industrious or philisophical you're a contender too.

Too bad there is no industrious and philosophical ruler....lol

Of course to me that sounds like Hitler...but whatever

 

[Romanichine]

I don't agree that Financial leaders can win by culture through the culture slider. It does not help only the top 3 cities but the whole empire, which seems a big money pit.

How much culture can it generate per 10% in middle game? And I'm not talking about the end game here where a +200 culture per turn may be possible at 100% because it will generally be too late to win by culture anyway.

I've checked my savegames and around 1500AD I get an average of +8 culture per city per 10% on the slider. Big deal.

--
Roman

 

[walkerjks]

You don't do it in the middle of the game. You need tech more than you need culture. Plus, you don't yet have all the +% buildings and wonders built yet.

What you do is wait until you have exhausted the +% culture options. This occurs around Mass Media. Then you pop the slider. In my last game, my third city had 20,000 culture at 1900. I maxed out the slider (and redistribued some specialists), the culture/turn went to 790-ish, and 40-ish turns later I won.

My actual culture in 1900 didn't really matter one bit. What mattered was my culture/turn potential. Financial clearly helps your culture/turn potential when it actually matters (and helps you in tech before then).

 

[KAuss]

I don't agree that Financial leaders can win by culture through the culture slider. It does not help only the top 3 cities but the whole empire, which seems a big money pit.

How much culture can it generate per 10% in middle game? And I'm not talking about the end game here where a +200 culture per turn may be possible at 100% because it will generally be too late to win by culture anyway.

I've checked my savegames and around 1500AD I get an average of +8 culture per city per 10% on the slider. Big deal.

--
Roman

Now do this again, but put in specialists and throw the production of your city to culture... With wonder modifiers, people have beaten this thing through culture win in the early 1800s... Which is about 200 years earlier than my diplomatic wins...

As a side note, I do agree how this game force every AI to win through space race... I think the reason being is that they know any AI without a tech advantage is a dead one... Archers vs tanks?

 

[Romanichine]

You don't do it in the middle of the game. You need tech more than you need culture. Plus, you don't yet have all the +% buildings and wonders built yet.

What you do is wait until you have exhausted the +% culture options. This occurs around Mass Media. Then you pop the slider. In my last game, my third city had 20,000 culture at 1900. I maxed out the slider (and redistribued some specialists), the culture/turn went to 790-ish, and 40-ish turns later I won.

My actual culture in 1900 didn't really matter one bit. What mattered was my culture/turn potential. Financial clearly helps your culture/turn potential when it actually matters (and helps you in tech before then).

790 culture per turn... sheesh!

Are you sure this whole amount was made with the Culture slider ONLY and was applied to every city???

--
Roman

 

[walkerjks]

The city was somewhere between 200 and 250 base culture before changing the slider. This was from all the normal culture buildings (plus one great artist specialist and 2 world wonders in that city). Another city was in the same basic range, but went to 1149 culture. This was because it was on a giant floodplain with fully developed cottages (which are 3 food, 1 shield, and 9 commerce), so the slider had a much larger effect on it.

Oh, in addition to switching specialists and putting the slider on 100% culture, you also switch the 3 cities to producing culture.

 

[LabMonster]

poor frederick :-( (Creative/philosophical)