Can someone clear up the FP thing?

MeteorPunch

#WINNING
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
4,834
Location
TN-USA
My understanding of the Conquests FP is that it doubles your maps optimal number of cities. It doesn't however, give any bonus for cities that are close to it (unlike the Real Palace city). So basically you can just build it anywhere, but it would be a waste to build it right next to your palace as those cities already have very little corruption.
 
A) It helps corruption in the city it's in.
B) Also, I think it helps very marginally in the cities near it.

Basically, build it anywhere.
 
I have noticed this too. However, the FP does affect one or two cities in very close proximity, basically, what I have tended to do with the FP lately to maximize its potential, is unless i have another city that would be a production giant if only i could decrease corruption, i build it relatives close to my capitol, and use the whole area as a production core. That seems to work well, as this way you can have 7 or 8 cities with virtually no corruption churching out units, or gold, or it is especially useful when preparing for space race victory if you play with that condition turned on.
 
Tomoyo said:
A) It helps corruption in the city it's in.
B) Also, I think it helps very marginally in the cities near it.

Basically, build it anywhere.

I wasn't sure about B there. Do you have any idea of the percentage :crazyeye: ? It's probably too low to matter though.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but:

The FP (in C3C)
1 - Increases OCN
2 - Decreases corruption in the city where it's built
 
Cities are still affected by distance from the capital, though, from the v1.22 readme.

It affects distance corruption but NOT rank corruption, unlike VC3 and PTW, which were like 2nd palaces.
 
And since rank corruption is the bigger factor, the FP doesn't have too much of an effect on towns around it.

Renata
 
A side note: connecting cities via road to the palace city reduces corruption slightly, but it doesn't work with the FP.

I was unpleasantly reminded of how C3C FP's work after rushing one on an island not connected via coastal tiles pre-magnetism. I had no iron or horses, but the isle did so I had a ring of cities ready to ramp up production as soon as the FP rushed. Yuck, only the FP city improved by a significant amount, however the other cities did get another small boost once I got the tech to connect the harbors (so my island was then trade-connected to my palace).

So what's the best FP strategy in C3C? In vanilla and PTW you just fired up a second core, but in C3C I don't know how to optimally choose the FP site.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just wanted to clear up: I assume SPHQ works the exact same (on C3C 1.22), right?
 
As for optimal FP placement, puppeteer, find a city with high potential (like floodplains besides mountains w/ ressources) where you know you can grow high in pop and have crazy mined mountains later on, and build it there so you get a mega prod center. Or a city with 2 rivers nearby for huge research potential, if you prefer.
 
The correct answer to every complicated question is "it depends" :)

On a map where you have a centrally located palace, and have 3 full rings of cities around it, the FP is not going to help its surrounding cities much. Because in this case, each city is fairly close to the palace already, and rank is the dominating corruption factor. But on a map with a brutally placed palace, like on the tip of a pennisula, the FP is going to help you a lot.

Think of it this way, if your palace is already doing its job perfectly, then the FP does not have much value. On the other hand, if the palace location is horrible, then the FP becomes a cheap 200 shield solution that fixes the problem.

The SPHQ is available in Communism only, so you can't really compare it to the FP. It does increase the OCN by a lot, and it is one of 3 cities in Communism that's capable of 0 corruption. So build it in a good city.
 
Beorn-eL-Feared said:
As for optimal FP placement, puppeteer, find a city with high potential (like floodplains besides mountains w/ ressources) where you know you can grow high in pop and have crazy mined mountains later on, and build it there so you get a mega prod center. Or a city with 2 rivers nearby for huge research potential, if you prefer.
Sounds good, but should any consideration be given to how close the FP is to the palace or other cities? It seems like as long as you can build (by shields or by leader) and defend the FP it doesn't really make a difference if it's close to other cities. Or might it be noticably helpful to place it near cities that are 25%-50% corrupted? Generally speaking, of course, since game-specific factors like 5 hills of gold by rivers and floodplains may be the deciding factor.
 
My own practice is to try to build it in the city with the most potential (commerce or shields, whichever) that's corrupt enough to hurt the town noticeably but not so corrupt that the FP will take ages to build. Tie-breaker goes to the town with more other towns close by. (So the one in the center of the continent trumps the one that's out on a peninsula.)

Renata
 
As with anything "civ" there is rarely one answer. I usually put my FP in a high production 2nd ring city in the direction of my expansion.
 
I think the readme is wrong or oversimplifying. It may be talking about distance from the capital in terms of rank corruption since the rank is based on relative distance from the capital.

The Forbidden Palace affects rank corruption insofar as it increases the optimal city number for all cities since the amount of rank corruption is affected by that. But it won't help the rank corruption of cities around it any more than the rank corruption of the cities far from it.
 
As others noted, it depends. Mostly, it depends on how large your core empire is going to be, what shape it will be, and what your strategy is.

On Regent, Standard Map, Republic, non-Commercial civ, cities connected to trade network, before constructing courthouses or the FP, your OCN is 20 (for "rank corruption", C:r) and distance corruption, C:d, rises at 1% per tile from the palace. (OCN falls to 18 in Monarchy (-10%), but I'll stick with Republic because the numbers are easier.) That means that each additional rank a city rises increases C:r by 2.5! If you space your cities at 4-5 squares distance, your first ring of six cities will have C:d of 4 or 5%, and C:r from 2.5% up to 15%, for total C (C:%) of 6.5% up to 20%. Your second ring of cities, 8 cities uniformly spaced at 8 tiles from the capital, will have C:d of 8%, and C:r of 17.5% to 35%, for total C:% of 25.5% to 43%.

As is clear, for each city C:r is much larger than C:d. So any FP effect on C:r will be far more important than the C:d effects.

So the best advice is: to minimize the effects of corruption, don't worry so much about the one city with the FP. Worry more about the other 25-40 cities you build, and make sure that you concentrate your most productive cities around your palace. City rank itself is a scarce resource - don't spend it on unproductive and unnecessary cities close to your capital.


That said, players are always worried about the FP placement, and it SEEMS like it should matter a great deal, even if it doesn't. So here's my FP-placement advice.

By now, you have 15 cities in your core, and you should consider the FP and courthouses. The FP does two things:
1. It raises your OCN, so EVERY city experiences lower C:r. Those cities that were over the OCN but are now under it experience the biggest reductions of all. Howerver, the FP does not affect ranks directly: ranks of cities close to the FP are still calculated based on distance to the PALACE.
2. It reduces C:d for those cities closer to it than the capital.

In a very large empire, placing the FP farther from your palace, gives you more benefit because it will reduce C:d for more cities. If your empire is a regular ellipse, you would get the most benefit to C:d if your FP and palace are near the foci (i.e., both on the long axis, about halfway between the center and the perimeter).

BUT! If it's too far away, the cities around the FP will get swamped by C:r - they will all be at the MaxC limit (90%, 80% w/ courthouse). The FP city itself will still enjoy MaxC of only 20% (10% w/ courthouse).

So where does it go? Well, the tricky part is that you have to decide where you are going to build (or conquer) your next 15-25 cities, because you don't want to start a new core of large, highly-improved, very productive cities to take advantage of the C:d reduction, but then end up backfilling or conquering so many small unproductive cities closer to your capital that you raise C:r in your new core to the point that the cities are net drains on your empire! (This is also why palace jumps can be ruinous if you haven't considered what C:r will do to your older core cities.)

In our hypothetical game, building courthouses in every city and the FP will raise OCN to 32.5. We've already got 15 cities, so we can build another 17 before C:r gets out of hand. You could build a second core of 15 cities, but then you'd have to make sure that you don't build too many more cities in the first core (i.e., a third ring) because each third-ring city would still be closer to the palace than the second core, crippiling your second core with high C:r. You also couldn't build many 'coastal defense' cities along your coasts that you don't intend to improve, and you'd want to raze every captured city that's closer to your palace than your second core.

The best bet is to centrally locate your palace in the area of the continent you are on, then expand to the coasts. Plan your second core to use all the remaining cities before hitting OCN for the map/level/gov't you are in (including courthouses and FP). In the example above where OCN = 32.5, if your first core gets out to a third ring (i.e., about 25 cities total), you'd only put seven in the second core, with the FP at the center. That way you avoid the conquest/backfill problem. That should ensure that your 30 cities are all in good shape.

Of course, even then, C:r is ALWAYS more important than C:d. (Std map, reg, Rep...) With courhouses, C:d drops to 50% of distance, i.e. city at 12 tiles gets 6% C. With police stations, it drops to 25% of distance, or just 3%. Peanuts. Meanwhile, if that was your 20th city, it had C:r of 47.5%, dropping to 38% with courthouse (34.5% with just FP), 29% with both FP and courthouse, and 25% after adding the police station. Thats a HUGE difference: 9% in C:d compared to 22% in C:r!
 
In Civ3C, my rule of thumb for placement of both FP and SPHQ is to build them in a city that has the highest corrupted shield/commerce output for maximum effect. The city should potentially have an extremely high shield count to be useful for a Military Academy built to produce armies in less than 5 turns, and important late game wonders.
 
A couple of questions for sprang:

sprang said:
As others noted, it depends. Mostly, it depends on how large your core empire is going to be, what shape it will be, and what your strategy is.

On Regent, Standard Map, Republic, non-Commercial civ, cities connected to trade network, before constructing courthouses or the FP, your OCN is 20 (for "rank corruption", C:r) and distance corruption, C:d, rises at 1% per tile from the palace.

Is that distance calculated the same as it would be if you were determining ring city placement in vanilla/PTW? In other words, 1 tile = distance 1 horizontally and vertically, but 1 tile = distance 1.5 diagonally; and half-unit are rounded down?

(OCN falls to 18 in Monarchy (-10%), but I'll stick with Republic because the numbers are easier.) That means that each additional rank a city rises increases C:r by 2.5!

How do you get from OCN 20 to a 2.5% corruption increase per city?

That's all for now.

Renata
 
Is that distance calculated the same as it would be if you were determining ring city placement in vanilla/PTW? In other words, 1 tile = distance 1 horizontally and vertically, but 1 tile = distance 1.5 diagonally; and half-unit are rounded down?

Yes.

Quote:
(OCN falls to 18 in Monarchy (-10%), but I'll stick with Republic because the numbers are easier.) That means that each additional rank a city rises increases C:r by 2.5!

How do you get from OCN 20 to a 2.5% corruption increase per city?

Number of Cities Corruption (C:r - it's based on city rank) is calculated as R/(2*OCN) for cities where R is LESS than OCN. Recall, however, that the capital has R=0 so C:r = 0. The OCNth city after the capital has rank R=OCN, and so will have C:r equal to R/2*R or 1/2, i.e. 50%.

IF OCN = 20, you actually get 21 cities total before C:r skyrockets. Your 20th city actually has R=19, and C:r of 47.5%; the 21st city has R=20. Although it isn't less than OCN -- meaning that the 21st city gets the harsher formula C:r = (2*R - OCN)/(2*OCN) -- if R=OCN, C:r still = 50%. For the 22nd city, however, C:r rises to 55%, and +5 %pts* each city thereafter. City 26 (R=25) has C:r of 75%.

Therefore, however large OCN is, the OCNth city after the capital always has C:r of 50%. Because R is only an integer, each additional rank increase in R translates into a discrete increase in C:r, equal to 50/OCN.

When OCN = 20, your 10th city after the capital has C:r of 25%, the 11th has 27.5%, and each additional Rank has a marginal increase of 2.5 %pts.

If OCN rises to 25, each increase in R raises C:r by only 2%. Your capital gets 0%, your next city (R=1) has 2%. Your 10th city now has C:r of 20% - a drop of 5 %pts, and the 20th city has C:r of 40%, a 10 %pt drop. The 25th city after the capital (#26 overall) has C:r of 50%. Each additional city beyond #26 has C:r rise by 4 %pts.


*I'm using %pt to indicate a change of one percentage point, as opposed to a change of one percent. Hopefully, it will avoid confusion. E.g., when OCN=20, the 20th city after the capital has C:r of 50%. If a courthouse is built, raising OCN to 25 (for that city), corruption is reduced and the city now has C:r of 40%. This is a drop of ten percentage points (10 %pts) and also a drop of 20%.
 
Back
Top Bottom