Can the AI be provoked into declaring war?

[RickDuzEnuff]

Hello fellow Civ Fans! This is my first post. I searched for an answer to this before I posted this thread. That doesn't mean the answer isn't out there somewhere, only that I could not find it.

I am a Civ II veteran and now I am starting to play Civ III. I have the Civ III Complete Edition (if that makes a difference). In Civ II, I could provoke/taunt the AI into declaring war, and thus keep my rep in tact. I have been unable to do this in Civ III. Is it possible to do so? And if so, how?

 

[Arexander]

One way is to ask AI for something for free and stop when it gets Furious. Then just boot him from your land if he has any units in your territory.

 

[RickDuzEnuff]

Thanks for the reply. That much I have achieved. In past games, I have been successful in getting the AI to declare war when the "Remove your troops NOW or declare WAR!" option is in the diplomacy dialogue. But even then, they apologize and move their troops more than 50% of the time.

Perhaps I should elaborate on my current situation. I cannot expand further without going to war with The Americans. I am in thick of MA and Galley is my only ship (currently researching Astronomy, so better ships are on the horizon), so seabourne expansion is not an option at the moment. I am stuck with just 9 cities until The Americans are moved (removed) from the picture. I am ready to declare open war (units mobilized and in position), but I don't want the rep hit...

 

[Arexander]

They must be angry enough (Furious, maybe goes with Annoyed) to declare war when booting them. And you can't make them go warring if they don't have military units in your boundaries. For example, they won't declare war if there are just workers in your territory.

 

[Sweetchuck]

The AI gets ticked off when your cultural influence butts up against theirs.

Build a city right smack next to one of theirs and (if you can) build more culture than that city. Rush culture buildings if you have to.

 

[CommandoBob]

Perhaps I should elaborate on my current situation. I cannot expand further without going to war with The Americans. I am in thick of MA and Galley is my only ship (currently researching Astronomy, so better ships are on the horizon), so seabourne expansion is not an option at the moment. I am stuck with just 9 cities until The Americans are moved (removed) from the picture. I am ready to declare open war (units mobilized and in position), but I don't want the rep hit...

Just a couple of quick questions. What difficulty/map size? If this is a standard map, nine cities sounds like not enough.

If you don't have any trade agreements with America (no current deals) then you should be able to declare war with no rep hit. Unless, (and this is where it gets tricky) a) you have a current gold-per-turn or goods-per-turn (luxuries or resources) deal b) that you are paying c) to a third civ and d) that trade route can only be traced to the third civ by going through America. If all that is true, declaring war will give you a trade-rep hit, since it will break the trade route to the third civ. Now, if you are getting (not sending) the gold-per-turn/goods-per-turn, declaring war may not give you a trade-rep hit, but I'm not as sure about this situation as the other one.

I am in thick of MA....

MA: Middle Ages or Military Alliance? Middle Ages sounds correct, but I could have misread your post.

 

[Arexander]

Don't you get a rep hit by DoWing? IIRC some thread (can't remember which) said so.

 

[RickDuzEnuff]

Don't you get a rep hit by DoWing? IIRC some thread (can't remember which) said so.

This is what I thought, but that could be the Civ II player in me.

Just a couple of quick questions. What difficulty/map size? If this is a standard map, nine cities sounds like not enough.

I am still quite the noob at Civ III ( this is my 3rd game, having won 1 cultural and lost 1 diplomatic ), so the difficulty is Chieftain. Map size is Standard. The low city count is due to a very poor starting position. The AI Americans are even worse off...having only 5 cities. They will be an easy target and it will be a short war. I had already started a very limited skirmish with another AI (The Aztecs) because they plopped a city right next to my Iron Colony. So I destroyed the town with the fortified units in the colony. When I did that, I got the Americans to declare war on the Aztecs as well. The Aztecs sued for peace right after I won back the iron. America continued fighting and lost a couple 1 pop towns to the Aztecs, and then sued for peace. As such, they were already annoyed with me, and now I have provoked them to furious, but can't get them to declare war.

Oh...and MA is indeed Middle Ages

 

[TheOverseer714]

The war declaration itself gives no fallout if a) you have no units in their territory(this includes ships), b) you are breaking no deals you are giving a good or money for, or c) you are breaking no diplomatic deals (Military Alliance, ROP, or MPP).

 

[RickDuzEnuff]

The war declaration itself gives no fallout if a) you have no units in their territory(this includes ships), b) you are breaking no deals you are giving a good or money for, or c) you are breaking no diplomatic deals (Military Alliance, ROP, or MPP).

GREAT!!! Thanks for the help. Time to go do some warring.....

 

[Lord Emsworth]

A great way to force an AI civ to declare war on you is to tie a luxury or resource import to a peace treaty. And then to go and to pillage or otherwise cut the trade route. You need the following ingredients to pull it off:
(1) a victim who has surplus luxes or resources; it is important that you buy the resource, selling one of your own will not work.
(2) a renegotiatable peace treaty
(3) a trade route that can easily be cut (tearing out a few roads or selling a harbour).

The results are stunning. You are fully responsible for engineering a war, but it is not you who takes the blame. Your victim takes that blame, along with a rep hit. You on the other hand are even rewarded by getting War Happyness.

-----

And don't worry about rep hits from just DoWing too much. It is not required to not have any units in enemy territory to come away with a clean rep after a DoW. In my experience you won't even take a rep hit if you've had units in enemy territory at the beginning of the turn.

If you don't have any trade agreements with America (no current deals) then you should be able to declare war with no rep hit. Unless, (and this is where it gets tricky) a) you have a current gold-per-turn or goods-per-turn (luxuries or resources) deal b) that you are paying c) to a third civ and d) that trade route can only be traced to the third civ by going through America.

e) your trading partner is also at war with America. (Else the route stays open)

If all that is true, declaring war will give you a trade-rep hit, since it will break the trade route to the third civ.

Yes, that would be logical. That does not mean that it is necessarily true. There are odd cases where you find that, while the deal does show up in the "active deals" tab, it is greyed out. And that, while the money does change hands, the resource/lux does not.

This definitely happens if you have the 'glorious' idea* of signing up one of your trading partners (gpt <-> lux) to an alliance against such a civ-in-the-middle. As long as you alone were at war with the civ-in-the-middle the route was open. Now that your trading partners is at war with that civ as well it no longer is. But does that end the deal? Hmm, let's see what Hamlet would say:

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.​

* Not me, of course. Ever.

 

[RickDuzEnuff]

Ok...returning to the "Civ II vet = Civ III noob" equation...Where do I find the status of my reputation? In Civ II, my DA would say something along the lines of "Our power is supreme and our reputation is spotless". I can find no such indicator on Civ III.

 

[Donny Brook]

I think the only way is to attempt a lop-sided trade. For instance, offer them 10 gpt for 1 lump sum gold. If they won't accept it, you know your rep is tarnished. If there are other ways to check, I don't know them. Of course, you don't have to click to accept the trade, you just want to know that they would accept it.

 

[Lanzelot]

A great way to force an AI civ to declare war on you is to tie a luxury or resource import to a peace treaty. And then to go and to pillage or otherwise cut the trade route. You need the following ingredients to pull it off:
(1) a victim who has surplus luxes or resources; it is important that you buy the resource, selling one of your own will not work.
(2) a renegotiatable peace treaty
(3) a trade route that can easily be cut (tearing out a few roads or selling a harbour).

The results are stunning. You are fully responsible for engineering a war, but it is not you who takes the blame. Your victim takes that blame, along with a rep hit. You on the other hand are even rewarded by getting War Happyness.

A similar strategy also works with Millitary Alliances. If you are currently at war with Civ A and you want to get into war with Civ B, try the following:

• Renegotiate peace with B and include an MA against A in the deal. Now there are several options:
• If A get's eliminated (either by you are by B or by a third party), the MA (and the peace deal...) end
• If B signs peace with A, it automatically declares war on you...
• However, I'm not exactly sure what will happen, if you sign peace with A. Obviously you'll be at war with B now, but I'm not sure, whether it counts as a DoW from your side (I think not) or whether you get any war happiness/war wearines from that?!

Lanzelot

PS: and a similar scheme can also be set up using a Peace Deal + Trade Embargo against a third party and then eliminating that third party (or trading with them).

 

[Lanzelot]

There are odd cases where you find that, while the deal does show up in the "active deals" tab, it is greyed out. And that, while the money does change hands, the resource/lux does not.

This definitely happens if you have the 'glorious' idea* of signing up one of your trading partners (gpt <-> lux) to an alliance against such a civ-in-the-middle. As long as you alone were at war with the civ-in-the-middle the route was open. Now that your trading partners is at war with that civ as well it no longer is. But does that end the deal?

Uff, that makes my head spinning...
Only you can come up with a design like that... (I already admired, how you drove the "MA for gpt + gpt back for Tech" idea to perfection in your 100K record game.) Is the above banned in GOTM?

Lanzelot

 

[RickDuzEnuff]

A similar strategy also works with Millitary Alliances. If you are currently at war with Civ A and you want to get into war with Civ B, try the following:

Renegotiate peace with B and include an MA against A in the deal. Now there are several options:

Just curious as to how one renegotiates peace with B when one is not yet at war with B...

Also, although I am familiar with WW, what is War Happiness? (The Civ III noob strikes again)

 

[vmxa]

It is the affect you get when a nation is attacked, they tend to come together to deal with a common threat. That is represented as War Happiness.

 

[The Professor]

Just curious as to how one renegotiates peace with B when one is not yet at war with B...

In the Diplomacy screen (F4) there is a tab at the bottom that says "Active." If you click on that link, it will show all ongoing deals you have with that nation, including peace treaties. If you click on peace, it will add it to whatever deal you are currently offering.

 

[Ozymandias]

If you're into a little modding - and it works for your scenario - you could use the "submarine bug". Create (for example) a 0-1-0 unit, make it Hidden, and strew them in the likely paths of the Civ(s) you wish to declare war.

Best,

Oz

 

[RickDuzEnuff]

If you're into a little modding - and it works for your scenario - you could use the "submarine bug". Create (for example) a 0-1-0 unit, make it Hidden, and strew them in the likely paths of the Civ(s) you wish to declare war.

In a word....shady