Can warmonger fervor be made a function of capitals taken instead of warmonger score?

Ah I see, that's good info to have, thank you. So you'd have to kill their units in your land and then counterattack, which doesn't sound worth it at all, you'll get pillaged a bunch and they will probably replace most of their units by the time you march over to their cities. On standard speed at least.
 
And Diety's 81...my god are diety players even able to move in melee troops into enemy territory? I feel like they would just ignite on fire as soon as they moved in.
If you want a formal domination victory, you probably want to play as someone with huge military bonuses (like Sweden) on Deity. It makes the military religious beliefs and wonders more important too.
 
Does anyone win via domination? I haven't in forever but perhaps it's because I play continents. Even as strict warmonger civs I usually find that some other victory condition is close at hand and easier after conquering half the world rather than continuing on and conquering the rest.

I'd probably be in favor of the anti warmonger bonus going back to being based on capitals owned. Otherwise you can be in a situation where it maxes out earlier than it really should and unduly harms a warmonger.

@civplayer33 brings up a loophole that needs to be addressed though (vassalizing without taking capitals). To fix that make it based on the number of capitals owned and/or vassals. In other words, increase anti warmonger fervor if you gain a vassal or take a capital (not counting double if you take a civ's capital and he's your vassal, of course). That should be tougher to get around but also hopefully keeps better pace with how strong that warmonger really is?
 
I'd probably be in favor of the anti warmonger bonus going back to being based on capitals owned. Otherwise you can be in a situation where it maxes out earlier than it really should and unduly harms a warmonger.
So the problem with the capital system is the loophole of just skipping capitals (though that does mean you didn't get a usually pretty good city). The advantage is its very clear and easy to understand.

The big thing I dislike about this system is that you accumulate a ton of warmonger for doing very little. I have a game where I reached a 20% bonus against Persia, who had not conquered a single city from any player. That's way too high. Really I don't think the bonus should kick in, at all, unless a person has taken at least one city.
 
Totally agree with CrazyG. The fever cannot just go on capitals but it is far too strong currently in my opinion.

I´m playing a Germany game passively up to the modern era. I liberated the only city that I had captured. and have not made a single DoW Every other era, my neighbors would DoW me. They barely managed to kill any units or pillage any improvments. Even with these insignificant wars spread out over several eras, I had still gotten a pretty noticable warmonger bonus in my favor. My landships could 1-shot full-health field guns without flanking or great general bonus. (I did go authority so that helps a bit). Any unit that entered my territory was slaughtered. While I appreciated the help, it felt unearned.

That all changed when I captured Agadir from Morocco. If I am not mistaken, it was the 9th city that Ahmad had settled and his least populous city (14 I think) so I did not expect much. Wrong! Ahmad now has an 81% bonus against me. That is a swing of about 100% for a minor city. I am fine with the 81% ceiling where it is, but do not think it should be so sensitive. If I were in the Classical or Medieval era, maybe then 14 population worth of cities would merit a max warmonger fever, but not in th Modern era. The really funny thing is that I had thought I was playing Immortal difficulty. Usually I play Immortal but occasionally venture into Diety. It was only when I saw 81% that I thought to double-check the difficulty I was actually playing at.

Personally, I would like to see the game move in a direction in which border cities change hands more frequently so as to match the historical reality. If the AI could get the same bonus against each other that they get against humans, that could allow for wilder swings in warfare. It could also help reign in runaways. On the flip side, it might be too hard on warmonger civs.
 
Last edited:
Does anyone win via domination? I haven't in forever but perhaps it's because I play continents. Even as strict warmonger civs I usually find that some other victory condition is close at hand and easier after conquering half the world rather than continuing on and conquering the rest.

Yes I only play full domination pangea (did a science game a week or so back that crashed in late industrial on barb turns where I was miles ahead of the AIs).
If you play on continents you also need to make a decent fleet.
The warmonger tends to kick in after first city captured which also often is a small crappy AI forward settle, the golden opportunity is when I can siege a close neighbour capital as first city.
On emperor crusader spirit (if you managed to get that) , great general and decent experience is more than enough to nullify the penalty but on higher you're still seriously gimped.
 
I think removing the current implementation of Anti-Warmonger Fervor without replacement would make attacking AI players too easy.
While the Vox Populi AI is playing very well for an AI it is still considerably worse than a human on the tactical level and needs some help.
After thinking about the problem for some time I came up with several approaches that I think could (at least in part) replace the current implementation of Anti-Warmonger Fervor:

==Option 1: Make Defensive Wars More Costly==
Currently defending against AI aggression does not really cost you much.
All you really have to do is gather enough Units at the border to kill the invading Units each turn.
As long as you are not losing Cities a defensive war does not really cost you much.
Basically the only cost you get is that your ability to trade is reduced.
However, if defending against AI aggression were to be more costly a warmongering player would face a much stiffer penalty for provoking all of his neighbors into attacking them.
There are several approaches by which this could be achieved:

The first approach would be to buff Pillaging and make the AI players aggressively harass their opponents when at war.
Basically the AI players would try to move a small number of Units around your main defensive line and try to capture your Workers and pillage your Improvements (especially Roads and Resources).
The rationale behind this tactic is that it would
  1. force their opponent to remove troops from the front line,
  2. inflict their opponents with extra Unhappiness, and
  3. reduce their opponents' ability to build Units and move them to the front line.
Pillaging tiles is a much easier objective than conquering Cities and I'm confident that the AI could be programmed to do it relatively well.
Even if the AI does not achieve optimal results when harassing their opponents they are probably going to achieve some results rather than none.
To make AI harassment more effective you could also buff Pillaging in some ways:
  • Increase Gold reward for Pillaging.
  • Increase Improvement repair times.
  • Increase Unhappiness from pillaged Improvements.
  • Give Pillaging a chance to reduce City population.
  • Allow scouting Units and/or mounted Units to pillage at no movement cost.
  • Allow naval Units to pillage adjacent Land Tiles.
  • Allow Spies to spawn Barbarians.
  • Remove attacks from Cities (but this has very far-reaching implications).
The second approach for making defensive wars more costly would be for attacks on Cities to cause permanent damage even if the City is not captured.
So when a City is damaged there could for instance be a chance that one of the Buildings is destroyed or that the City loses 1 Population.

==Option 2: Nerf Roads or Make the AI Use Them, Too==
Currently Roads are immensely useful for military purposes.
The default strategy is to basically put a Road onto every Tile on the border to an enemy player.
This gives all of your Units a huge mobility boost, allowing you to efficiently focus down enemy Units and easily swap out your own injured Units.
However, as of right now only human players seem to make good use of Roads.
Therefore, if Roads were to be nerfed this would make the game harder for human players.
Possible Approaches for nerfing Roads:
  • Allow all Units to use Roads in enemy territory. This would make building Roads on all Tiles near the border a very risky strategy because it could allow enemy Units to penetrate deeply into your territory and possibly kill your valuable backline.
  • Disallow Units from attacking and taking advantage of Roads on the same turn.
  • Increase maintenance costs of roads (please don't, they're already extremely high in the early game).
As an alternative to nerfing roads you could simply make the AI use them, too.
In my experience it is extremely difficult to conquer Cities where the AI has built Roads for non-military purposes.
If the AI were to always build lots of Roads in their territory it would be much harder to invade them.

==Option 3: Nerf or Remove the Range Promotion==
Although it has been nerfed compared to vanilla Civ 5, the Range Promotion is still extremely powerful.
I would argue that it is single most important Promotion to use for both offense and defense as a human player.
The AI rarely ever gets to use the Range Promotion because it requires 100 Experience and their Units usually do not survive long enough to get it.
If the Range Promotion were to be nerfed or removed altogether it would make the game much harder for human players.
I think an appropriate nerf for the Range Promotion would be to change its effect to the following:
+1 Range. When attacking at maximum Range, deal 70% less damage.

==Option 4: Improve AI Usage of Bombers against Units==
I think the AI is currently not very good when it comes to using Bombers against Units.
If the AI were better at performing Air Sweeps and focusing down Units with the help of Bombers they would be much stronger in the late game I think.

==Option 5: Improve AI Naval Siege Capabilities==
I think the AI is currently still rather incompetent when it comes to naval sieges.
The AI seem to be rarely ever sending embarked land Units to go along with their naval Units and if they do they are not shielding them properly.
As a consequence you can easily take down the AIs' naval Units with just a few ranged land Units as long as you don't put them directly on the coast.
I think that if the AI were to embark several mounted Units and use them to threaten enemy ranged land Units their naval sieges would be more successful.
 
I'll throw a few more ideas on the pile.

Option 6: (Extremely radical) Remove upgrades from the game.

This is one of those "I never expect to happen" but I note it to make a point. One of the reasons that the human is so good at war is the ability to maintain and promote units. The AI continues to spend hammers on units whereas at some point competetant warmongers do not. Further, human units become highly promoted and our force multipliers on the field. If units were forced into obsolence and you had to rebuild units (aka more like in real life), than the human advantage would greatly reduce.

This is one of the reasons that the Civ IV's AI can be good at war (besides the fact that Stack of Doom is just easier to run than 1 UPT), is because the player had to constantly build new units throughout the game, and couldn't just rely on units built in the first couple of eras.

Option 7: Attrition Penalty

Now for a more sane idea, though probably still a bit too radical:) We talked about this in another thread with the idea of removing healing in enemy territory. What if we went further, and had units take damage in enemy territory based on war weariness? So the idea is that your supply lines start to exhaust and your units slowly weaken over long sieges. It hinders the human's ability to create a line and just slam a city until they win, they have to rotate in fresh units or risk their armies decaying to a point of easy kill.

Now at base attrition would be 0, but would increase in a similar manner to the anti-warmonger penalty. So the unit imbalances of anti-warmonger penalties don't occur, but the attacker still has an uphill battle against the defender as he continues the war.
 
I didn't get the feeling that the consensus was to remove anti warmonger bonuses. It seems like people just don't like how spiky it is, where you can take a single city (or sometimes not even that) and start to get the malus.

I think the formula probably just needs to be updated to scale more gradually and more equal to your true threat as a warmonger. I have no idea what the current formula is, though, so I'm probably out of my depth to propose a new one. Ideally it would only max out when you've done something like conquer half the world or something on that level, so that the remaining civs stand a chance against your might.
 
More in game data for this:

Persia declared war on me twice in a game, giving me +20%.
France has conquered 3 cities, including Carthage's capital. I declared war just to check, my units get only 14% warmonger against him.
I conquered a Persian city with a tiny population that he forward settled right in my face using a pioneer. He now has +81% against me. That is a combat swing of more than 100% for taking a single, weak city.

I'm up for challenging games, but even with a tech lead I can't play against an 81% penalty. His lancers beat my landships. Really the only hope is Lebrensaum, I extend my land right next to his cities so that he cannot get a combat bonus.

The capitals system, even if flawed, was still better than this. There is an opportunity cost to not taking capitals, and it gives players control over their warmonger penalty.

Either way, I really think this penalty should be universal, like the same for all players and not affected by an AI's personality. Being a sore loser shouldn't make Persia's troops stronger.
 
Being a sore loser shouldn't make Persia's troops stronger.

I think the deciding factor here is not AI personality but distance.
Currently Warmonger Penalties scale very heavily with distance: if you conquer a City you will get much larger penalties with nearby players than with players far away.
Also, you will always get much larger penalties against the player whose City you have conquered.
 
I think the deciding factor here is not AI personality but distance.
Currently Warmonger Penalties scale very heavily with distance: if you conquer a City you will get much larger penalties with nearby players than with players far away.
Also, you will always get much larger penalties against the player whose City you have conquered.
Persia's capital is on another continent in this example. I conquered a city that he put on my capital.

I don't think it matters how close or far Persia is, you shouldn't get the maximum possible penalty for taking a single city. Whatever the deciding factor is, it gives too much for too little occurring.
 
Just as a note for anyone who hasn't read my post in the diplomacy feedback thread: Gazebo is revising the warmonger penalty system for next version.
 
I disagree with many people here: I think it makes sense for the warmonger penalty to account for war declarations - since a civ can cripple another without taking a city (and some civ benefit from non-conquest aspects of war like Aztec/Japan/Denmark) - and non-capital cities.
Perhaps the numbers can be tweaked, however: both the base numbers for each case, and perhaps also a smoothing of the penalty so it doesn't rise too quickly (but that also means it will decrease more slowly).

@Voremonger: You say you want to curb warmongers yet Option 1 revolves around making the defender's life harder... I don't think it goes in the right direction.
I do agree with a couple of points: human players use roads better than AI do - because sometimes you need to overbuild roads at a critical location - but I suspect it'll be hard to teach that to the AI. And Bombers and Naval combat could indeed be improved - but easier said than done.
 
You say you want to curb warmongers yet Option 1 revolves around making the defender's life harder... I don't think it goes in the right direction.

The changes described in Option 1 would not help human warmongers on most maps.
To make aggressive play worthwhile you need to get some sort of reward for all the Units you have built
In other words, you need to actually conquer Cities or you are just throwing Gold and Production down the drain.
Just hurting your opponents is not enough to make warmongering worthwhile on most maps.
I think it is almost always a better investment to instead conquer a City State.
 
The main problem with lowering the anti-warmonger curve is that it weakens its effect, and again even with its current strength there is still concerns that aggression is the best path in many cases. That's the issue to me, as much as I don't like the penalty, it seems sorely needed to keep warmongering in check.
 
The main problem with lowering the anti-warmonger curve is that it weakens its effect, and again even with its current strength there is still concerns that aggression is the best path in many cases. That's the issue to me, as much as I don't like the penalty, it seems sorely needed to keep warmongering in check.

Totally anecdotal, but the games I've been winning recently have been peaceful tall or peaceful wide. But maybe I just suck at aggression at the moment- I can often conquer a continent but have a hard time translating that into an actual win lately. There always seems to be a strong civ on the other continent that I can't beat to a win condition and who I have trouble dealing with militarily.
 
Totally anecdotal, but the games I've been winning recently have been peaceful tall or peaceful wide. But maybe I just suck at aggression at the moment- I can often conquer a continent but have a hard time translating that into an actual win lately. There always seems to be a strong civ on the other continent that I can't beat to a win condition and who I have trouble dealing with militarily.

You can kill a city state on their continent (or just make sure they won’t ally with who you’re trying to attack, though taking the CS means you won’t have to deal with the annoyance of maneuvering around their units) to make a launching point. Teching up to planes first gives you air superiority which is a huge deal for clearing out units... but getting carriers as well before the AI can get some antiair is probably unfeasible. And there’s always nukes if you have no shame...

Honestly I find complete domination as the “winmore” condition. If you’ve secured a few capitals and the best territory from those leaders and didn’t go crazy with annexing you can easily coast to a diplo or science victory with the sheer amount of hammers, gold and faith your gigantic empire can now produce. If you’re lucky enough to have snagged some nice wide bonus wonders and monoolies, it’s even easier. This is why domination needs to be difficult, I understand... but as others have iterated the ramp up to full warmonger score is too quick right now.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom