Can we have equality without equal material wealth?

The problem with the pursuit of equality isn't material wealth, it's power. In a capitalist society, the capitalists hold the power so material wealth is the obvious obstacle to equality, but that's an insufficient view.

"All exclusive, uncontrolled power becomes oppressive in the hands of those who have the monopoly of it…"

One of the problems with Marxism is that it merely replaces the capitalists with bureaucrats and so the oppression continues, just under new management. It's short-sighted to believe oppression would end with capitalism. Marx wrote a lot about oppression but never understood it. As a result, he's created a poorly constructed religion in which he is the messiah who has deceived his followers into believing that the downfall of capitalism is inevitable, and with it, paradise.1

Marx's critiques are not without merit, but ultimately he was a rather deluded man.

1Weil
Spoiler :
In his view, modern techniques, once freed from capitalist forms of economy, can give men, here and now, sufficient leisure to enable them to develop their faculties harmoniously, and consequently bring about the disappearance, to a certain extent, of the degrading specialization created by capitalism; and above all the further development of technique must lighten more and more, day by day, the burden of material necessity, and as an immediate consequence that of social constraint, until humanity reaches at last a truly paradisal state in which the most abundant production would be at the cost of a trifling expenditure of effort and the ancient curse of work would be lifted; in short, in which the happiness of Adam and Eve before the fall would be regained.
 
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Marx wrote a lot about oppression but never understood it. As a result, he's created a poorly constructed religion in which he is the messiah who has deceived his followers into believing that the downfall of capitalism is inevitable, and with it, paradise.1

Marx's critiques are not without merit, but ultimately he was a rather deluded man.

Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things.


1Weil
Spoiler :
In his view, modern techniques, once freed from capitalist forms of economy, can give men, here and now, sufficient leisure to enable them to develop their faculties harmoniously, and consequently bring about the disappearance, to a certain extent, of the degrading specialization created by capitalism; and above all the further development of technique must lighten more and more, day by day, the burden of material necessity, and as an immediate consequence that of social constraint, until humanity reaches at last a truly paradisal state in which the most abundant production would be at the cost of a trifling expenditure of effort and the ancient curse of work would be lifted; in short, in which the happiness of Adam and Eve before the fall would be regained.

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!

For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.

Hmm…really doesn’t seem to me like Marx saw in communism an abolition of labor, nor a bringing about of maximum leisure for all.
 
Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things.




In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!

For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.

Hmm…really doesn’t seem to me like Marx saw in communism an abolition of labor, nor a bringing about of maximum leisure for all.
Capital Volume 3 ch. 48 disagrees, however.

In fact, the realm of freedom actually begins only where labour which is determined by necessity and mundane considerations ceases; thus in the very nature of things it lies beyond the sphere of actual material production. Just as the savage must wrestle with Nature to satisfy his wants, to maintain and reproduce life, so must civilised man, and he must do so in all social formations and under all possible modes of production. With his development this realm of physical necessity expands as a result of his wants; but, at the same time, the forces of production which satisfy these wants also increase. Freedom in this field can only consist in socialised man, the associated producers, rationally regulating their interchange with Nature, bringing it under their common control, instead of being ruled by it as by the blind forces of Nature; and achieving this with the least expenditure of energy and under conditions most favourable to, and worthy of, their human nature. But it nonetheless still remains a realm of necessity. Beyond it begins that development of human energy which is an end in itself, the true realm of freedom, which, however, can blossom forth only with this realm of necessity as its basis. The shortening of the working-day is its basic prerequisite.​
 
Capital Volume 3 ch. 48 disagrees, however.

In fact, the realm of freedom actually begins only where labour which is determined by necessity and mundane considerations ceases; thus in the very nature of things it lies beyond the sphere of actual material production. Just as the savage must wrestle with Nature to satisfy his wants, to maintain and reproduce life, so must civilised man, and he must do so in all social formations and under all possible modes of production. With his development this realm of physical necessity expands as a result of his wants; but, at the same time, the forces of production which satisfy these wants also increase. Freedom in this field can only consist in socialised man, the associated producers, rationally regulating their interchange with Nature, bringing it under their common control, instead of being ruled by it as by the blind forces of Nature; and achieving this with the least expenditure of energy and under conditions most favourable to, and worthy of, their human nature. But it nonetheless still remains a realm of necessity. Beyond it begins that development of human energy which is an end in itself, the true realm of freedom, which, however, can blossom forth only with this realm of necessity as its basis. The shortening of the working-day is its basic prerequisite.​

shortening the working-day != abolishing labor or bringing about maximum leisure, as the first portion of that passage explains, and as the two passages I quoted also explain.
 
Marx had been reading Aristotle, who regarded leisure as freedom. It begs the question, is this meaningful work as you quote above and earlier not a pro social and productive leisure?
 
There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels.

It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic, and subatomic, and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU! WILL! ATONE!
 
Marx had been reading Aristotle, who regarded leisure as freedom. It begs the question, is this meaningful work as you quote above and earlier not a pro social and productive leisure?
Leisure is the opposite of freedom. The overly leisurely get dominated by the industrious (really those who can rally, cajole or coerce others into being industrious for them.
 
If you associate Marx with the pursuit of equality, you do not understand Marx straight up.

Additionally the “humans are naturally greedy/selfish” arguers are also off the mark. If there could be anything like a true human tendency in a putative state of nature, that tendency is towards mutual aid and a conscious elimination of hierarchy as it develops, and probably has been from the moment humans developed the ability to use projectile weapons and produce poisons. This has been the case in basically every immediate return Hunter-gatherer society we have ever observed. Humans tend towards greed/selfishness given material conditions that produce them, namely when subsistence is dependent on a fixed resource whose access can be restricted, and the ability to freely associate is thereby eliminated.

Coming into this one late so forgive me for bringing this one back up. I'm totally confused now on what Marx was trying to achieve. I always thought Marx wanted to get rid of greed and selfishness by making everyone equal.

You seem to be saying that Marx thought that people were naturally inclined to aid one another and that no one likes to be placed in a category of society that is lower than someone else. IOW we're all at the bottom or we're all at the top. Is this a correct assessment?
 
Marx had been reading Aristotle, who regarded leisure as freedom. It begs the question, is this meaningful work as you quote above and earlier not a pro social and productive leisure?

There seems to be a bit of an equivocation of terms going on here, as leisure can be understood in two different senses. There is leisure as "ability to do as one wills without coercion or compulsion" (e.g. "to do at one's leisure"), and then there's leisure as "idleness," as contrasted with industriousness, as Narz characterized it, or as a paradisiacal return to the the state of the garden, as João characterized it, quoting Simone Weil. If you define leisure as the former, then leisure as freedom is a tautological statement; both terms would then mean "the ability to do according to one's will without coercion or external compulsion." If the latter, then we're dealing in a vision totally at odds with Marx's conception of the human condition, and we return to my original point: that Marx did not see in communism an abolition of labor or a return to a Edenic state of eternal hedonic indolence.

Coming into this one late so forgive me for bringing this one back up. I'm totally confused now on what Marx was trying to achieve. I always thought Marx wanted to get rid of greed and selfishness by making everyone equal.

You seem to be saying that Marx thought that people were naturally inclined to aid one another and that no one likes to be placed in a category of society that is lower than someone else. IOW we're all at the bottom or we're all at the top. Is this a correct assessment?

So a couple of points. The first thing you need to understand if you want to get Marx is his notion of humanity as a species being:

Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844 said:
In estranging from man (1) nature, and (2) himself, his own active functions, his life activity, estranged labor estranges the species from man. It changes for him the life of the species into a means of individual life. First it estranges the life of the species and individual life, and secondly it makes individual life in its abstract form the purpose of the life of the species, likewise in its abstract and estranged form.

For labor, life activity, productive life itself, appears to man in the first place merely as a means of satisfying a need – the need to maintain physical existence. Yet the productive life is the life of the species. It is life-engendering life. The whole character of a species, its species-character, is contained in the character of its life activity; and free, conscious activity is man’s species-character. Life itself appears only as a means to life.

The animal is immediately one with its life activity. It does not distinguish itself from it. It is its life activity. Man makes his life activity itself the object of his will and of his consciousness. He has conscious life activity. It is not a determination with which he directly merges. Conscious life activity distinguishes man immediately from animal life activity. It is just because of this that he is a species-being. Or it is only because he is a species-being that he is a conscious being, i.e., that his own life is an object for him. Only because of that is his activity free activity. Estranged labor reverses the relationship, so that it is just because man is a conscious being that he makes his life activity, his essential being, a mere means to his existence.

In creating a world of objects by his personal activity, in his work upon inorganic nature, man proves himself a conscious species-being, i.e., as a being that treats the species as his own essential being, or that treats itself as a species-being. Admittedly animals also produce. They build themselves nests, dwellings, like the bees, beavers, ants, etc. But an animal only produces what it immediately needs for itself or its young. It produces one-sidedly, whilst man produces universally. It produces only under the dominion of immediate physical need, whilst man produces even when he is free from physical need and only truly produces in freedom therefrom. An animal produces only itself, whilst man reproduces the whole of nature. An animal’s product belongs immediately to its physical body, whilst man freely confronts his product. An animal forms only in accordance with the standard and the need of the species to which it belongs, whilst man knows how to produce in accordance with the standard of every species, and knows how to apply everywhere the inherent standard to the object. Man therefore also forms objects in accordance with the laws of beauty.

It is just in his work upon the objective world, therefore, that man really proves himself to be a species-being. This production is his active species-life. Through this production, nature appears as his work and his reality. The object of labor is, therefore, the objectification of man’s species-life: for he duplicates himself not only, as in consciousness, intellectually, but also actively, in reality, and therefore he sees himself in a world that he has created. In tearing away from man the object of his production, therefore, estranged labor tears from him his species-life, his real objectivity as a member of the species and transforms his advantage over animals into the disadvantage that his inorganic body, nature, is taken from him.

Similarly, in degrading spontaneous, free activity to a means, estranged labor makes man’s species-life a means to his physical existence.

What Marx is saying here is that the nature of human life that distinguishes it from all other forms of life is consciousness: that humans are able to conceptualize their activity outside the frame of bare necessity: you eat so that you can do whatever labor brings you meaning, as contrasted with other species who eat so they can go on eating. In other words, the core essence of humanity is freedom: the ability to shape one's reality according to one's will over and above the demands of coercion. It is on this basis that Marx condemns capitalism, as it inverts that fundamental human condition by turning via coercion humans into mere tools: objects that do not conceive of the activity outside the frame of bare necessity, but rather do only because of that necessity, and only insofar as that necessity extends. The freer the human worker is in the workplace, the worse they are as a tool, as a tool's utility derives from its ability to be predictable, reusable, and interchangeable with like tools, which is why we have things like bosses or overseers or work surveillance: the capitalist needs to constrain the human desire to act freely and replace it with predictable, regimented activity. Therefore capitalism is, by its very nature, contrary to human life: it is life-denying, and the movement to abolish that life-denying arrangement (i.e. communism) is, by contrast, definitionally life-affirming.

In the second part, Marx was opposed to "equality" as a guiding principle for the reasons he stated in the passage I quoted above, and for the reasons that a couple others have pointed out in this thread: that equality is a logical impossibility given that different people are, by definition, different. The only way for two things to be equal would be for them to be identical, which is physically impossible. You can only make two things equal in respect to some criterion, but again, given the impossibility of true equality, to make them equal in some respect will necessarily make them unequal in some other respect.

To take a quick example, let's imagine two workers, John and Laura. Both work in a factory making widgets. Laura is a very capable widget maker, and is able to produce 8 widgets per hour, while John isn't as capable, and can only produce 4 per hour. You could make things equal on a per diem basis (everybody gets paid, say, $50 for 8 hours of work), but in this case they are unequal on a production basis, as Laura is getting paid $1.28 per widget while John is getting paid $1.56 per widget. On the other hand, were you to pay an equal rate on a per-widget basis, then precisely the opposite problem arises, where Laura and John are putting in equal effort and working equal time, but Laura is earning twice as much as John. Finally, the same problem arises again if you pay everyone equally on a by-quota basis, as Laura will be working half the time as John to meet the same quota. It is for this reason that the guiding principle of communism, as set down in the Manifesto is "from each according to one's ability, to each according to one's need." And Marx spent much of his later years raking various other theoreticians over the coals for organizing on principles like "equal pay for equal work" or "a worker is entitled to all that he produces."

So then, Marx's vision of communism was, in his words: "the real movement which abolishes the present state of things," which is to say, an arrangement of social relations which present themselves as free, but which, in truth, deny freedom and thereby compel humans to deny themselves and their nature. And consequently communism is the popular movement for universal self-emancipation, and a striving to achieve true freedom.
 
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Leisure is the opposite of freedom. The overly leisurely get dominated by the industrious (really those who can rally, cajole or coerce others into being industrious for them.

It's the nature of capital to 'punish' leisure. If everything is owned, then it's not clear why some people should get stuff for free.

In the modern era, you can get breakout levels of wealth, where your ownership of the economy grows faster than the economy. That's a problem, for sure. But, even then, you have to be lucky if you're not going to protect that wealth.

Of course, protecting/growing wealth is not the same thing as earning a piece of the share. Even though both types of work field similar at the upper levels
 
Thank you schlaufuchs!

That is a lot to take in. I will study this over the weekend but the information you provided is radically different from what little I admittedly have read about Marxism.
 
Of course, protecting/growing wealth is not the same thing as earning a piece of the share.
I'm no economist but it seems the lions share of work is to protect/continue forward the wealth of the already super wealthy w significantly less trickling down to those doing all the functional labor that keeps society afloat (for now)
 
The Lion's Share is actually going to be for the benefit of working people. I don't mean to downplay how much the super wealthy are parasitizing, but even if they weren't, quality of life would only rise a bit. The amount would be significant to the Working Poor, but less significant to anybody drawing median salary.
 
Restarting the book Medieval Money by Peter Spufford:
"Senators of middling wealth had incomes of 100,000 gold solidi a year, whilst the richest Roman senators had incomes of around 300,000..."

The middling elite were 1/3 as rich as the top elite. That is a flatter society.
 
Restarting the book Medieval Money by Peter Spufford:
"Senators of middling wealth had incomes of 100,000 gold solidi a year, whilst the richest Roman senators had incomes of around 300,000..."

The middling elite were 1/3 as rich as the top elite. That is a flatter society.
Obviously not a more equal society, slaves were 20 solidi a head, patriarchs had the right to kill them, their wives, sons, daughters, everyone in the house.
 
There is so such thing as equality. It's a myth. In 7,000 years of recorded history there has never once been a society in which all members were equal. No one is equal from birth. Even if everyone lived in caves, some caves would be bigger, some would have more members, some would have access to resources and skills that other cave dwellers don't, some would have more food, alot more food. Some would have better looking women, taller and faster men, better hunting skills, sharper tools, the list could go on and on. The best shot at having an equal society, that contains hundreds of millions of members of every creed, race, and behavior, is to have equal opportunity, which would eliminate all social programs such as affirmative action, race quotas, grants, social security, welfare, and once again, the list goes on and on. If everyone was truly equal, no one would be in charge, nothing would be coordinated, and civilization wouldn't exist. We are a hierarchal, territorial, superstitious, pack animal. There will always be haves and have nots. It is literally impossible for all human beings to be cognitively, psychologically, physically, and spiritually the same. Further more, there would be no point to that arrangement, if it was so.
 
There is so such thing as equality. It's a myth. In 7,000 years of recorded history there has never once been a society in which all members were equal. No one is equal from birth. Even if everyone lived in caves, some caves would be bigger, some would have more members, some would have access to resources and skills that other cave dwellers don't, some would have more food, alot more food. Some would have better looking women, taller and faster men, better hunting skills, sharper tools, the list could go on and on. The best shot at having an equal society, that contains hundreds of millions of members of every creed, race, and behavior, is to have equal opportunity, which would eliminate all social programs such as affirmative action, race quotas, grants, social security, welfare, and once again, the list goes on and on. If everyone was truly equal, no one would be in charge, nothing would be coordinated, and civilization wouldn't exist. We are a hierarchal, territorial, superstitious, pack animal. There will always be haves and have nots. It is literally impossible for all human beings to be cognitively, psychologically, physically, and spiritually the game. Further more, there would be no point to that arrangement, if it was so.

even if you take that all as true (i might dispute some of it), you still have to pick at least some constraints for civilization. if you don't, people who are not equal in ways that translate to physical force will pick them for you, and i doubt that produces an outcome that optimizes for what we want as a species overall.
 
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