Can We Talk About Kongo's GWAM Spam?

kamex

kamex

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Anybody else think its a bit ridiculous how many of the world's GWAMs they can generate? If I play them and focus Theatre Districts early I can often get about 80%+ of all the GWAMs who will ever be born. What also irks me, and forgive my African history if I'm mistaken, but I can't find any historical basis for this...? I've been reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afonso_I_of_Kongo and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kongo and connot really find anything that justfys spamming every GWAM the world will ever know.

Also the double Great Merchants is also very strong as they are perhaps the best GP class overall.

I know there has to be some compensation for being locked out of a victory type but this is a bit over the top surely? As it happens GWAMs are not the most optimal way for a culture victory any way but they certainly help.

Playing against a Kongo AI makes it really hard to generate a GWAM at all without large patronage fees.
 
Historical basis? Pfft, don't be so closed minded. We need a strong African nation and we need to make them broken and OP to show just how strong and beautiful it is. You see we couldn't honestly justify this even being a civ and led by this Mabamba Mamba (who did what exactly?), let alone come up with anything that makes sense soooo the answer is... that's right! Culture! Moar culture!
 
Yep kongo is broken big time, I played with them once up to just past turn 100 then quit because it was too easy.
TBH I tend to play the bad countries because it is more rewarding to do well with them. None are really that bad situationally but the powerful ones are a bit too OP
 
I think it is more a thing that Afonso tried to 'import' a lot of culture in a short time. Same goes for Pedro's Brazil. So it doesn't disturb me, that Kongo is culture focussed.
It's more the way that civ implements and views great people: they focus on a certain type of art and culture that happened in many countries over the world, but not all. A culture in which a specific person 'creates' a work of art and is remembered for that.
Great stories arose everywhere however, even if they were not written down. Great storytellers may have become famous and forgotten quite often. Objects that express something where modeled in almost all cultures. You can't deny the artistic value of something like Lascaux of Nkisi, but it doesn't fit civ terms. Music is found all over the world and while it is hard to prove to quality (and why should you try?), instruments are found everywhere and are usually much older that writing (like a flute from nearby where I grew up that is supposed to be over 40k years old).
 
Especially in the human's hand, if you spam commerce districts everywhere, it's insane the amount of merchant points that you can rack up. Probably a little too much (maybe would make more sense to just give them a rebate of points like for Pedro, or just give them a fixed bonus per era or something), but given that they physically can not win one of the victory conditions, oh well. Not every civ should be equally powerful, so it's nice having some tougher opponents.
 
Kwami said:
And everyone should have equal units and equal production and ...
Click to expand...
no, that is not what I said... If I do not provide enough science points in an era I do not get that scientist
It was a suggestion and yes on further thought there must be some competition but what I was meaning was the following example

I am playing Deity and spam harbors as fast as I can so that I can get Leif Erikson. However before I get the chance the era goes by

Please do not put words into my mouth
 
Victoria said:
no, that is not what I said... If I do not provide enough science points in an era I do not get that scientist
It was a suggestion and yes on further thought there must be some competition but what I was meaning was the following example

I am playing Deity and spam harbors as fast as I can so that I can get Leif Erikson. However before I get the chance the era goes by

Please do not put words into my mouth
Click to expand...

But that's not how it works. Leif Erikson stays there for a long time. If you can't get him by some combination of harbors, policy cards, perks, projects, and patronage, well, then that's on you.

But what you said was that each civilization should get a similar number of great people in each era, which is entirely different than what you're saying now. I was pointing out how silly that would be.
 
Been having a great game as Russia where Kongo were my only competition, and as ever Kongo was drowning in Great Works. Well, I can now report that they are MY Great Works for which I thank Kongo very much...lol.
 
I really do believe that for single player peaceful games Kongo is the best Civ. It can grow enormous quickly, has tonnes of gpt, has extremely powerful themed museums. In fact its GWAM spam is in conflict with its objective to obtain as many artifacts as possible - if you go artifacts as you should, you can't store the paintings. I really like this civ but think that it and/or GWAMs in general needs a rework.
 
kamex said:
I really do believe that for single player peaceful games Kongo is the best Civ. It can grow enormous quickly, has tonnes of gpt, has extremely powerful themed museums. In fact its GWAM spam is in conflict with its objective to obtain as many artifacts as possible - if you go artifacts as you should, you can't store the paintings. I really like this civ but think that it and/or GWAMs in general needs a rework.
Click to expand...

Well, Writers and Musicians don't conflict with artifacts. Also, some of the Artists produce sculptures, which work with Kongo's bonuses. So, only a few GWAMs are problematic for Kongo. I think it's OK.
 
Not just that, but given that the math for Kongo with the Reliquaries belief is bugged, Kongo can gain as much as 1452 faith per turn with five relics in the palace of Mbanza Kongo.

This would allow Kongo to purchase great people very much on demand.
 
Kongo is stupidly OP.
Combine relics in capital with many early great writers and the game is won with printing. Worse, with Kongo you can just pick the best great people as they come up.
They are just simply not worth playing but are great competition for a more challenging game.
 
Kongo needs the nerf stick.

Funny thing is, even without the GWAMs, Kongo is still a good civ -- top-tier imo.
 
NukeAJS said:
Kongo needs the nerf stick.

Funny thing is, even without the GWAMs, Kongo is still a good civ -- top-tier imo.
Click to expand...
The first thing is to fix the math for faith generation from the Reliquaries belief, because once the palace of Mbanza Kongo has five relics and the city having the majority religion with the Reliquaries belief, Kongo could very well be able to purchase great people and naturalists on demand, especially with the Theocracy government (which can also allow it to create a massive army very much overnight).

The Kongo Reliquaries bug very much allows Kongo to achieve any kind of victory (excluding religious victory of course) with ease, even on Deity.
 
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