Capturing defended workers without combat?

[Tsathoggua]

I'm constantly losing workers/slaves that are in stacks with units quite capable of defending them. This allows otherwise hostile units to live in the same stack as my combat units. I'm usually forced to waste a turn stepping away from the stack in order to attack it again to get my workers back.

The attacking units have been everything from Cyklops to Lizardmen, so I'm not really convinced it has much to do with unit type.

Of course, I could be wrong. Thoughts? Advice?

 

[Sjru]

I think is because your defending unit is hidden or invisible from the enemy, they cannot see it, thus it acts as your stack is not defended.

 

[Tsathoggua]

That is counter-intuitive on so many levels. I hope it's not a permanent feature...

 

[Cyrusfan]

I think he means you should check your defending units because in some cases they are invisible (D'tesh recon for example). Units with hidden nationality would also be ignored, but that's probably not the problem because you wouldn't be able to attack the barbs on the following turns.

 

[Tsathoggua]

I think he means you should check your defending units because in some cases they are invisible (D'tesh recon for example). Units with hidden nationality would also be ignored, but that's probably not the problem because you wouldn't be able to attack the barbs on the following turns.

Oh, I understand that much. I just mean it is a pretty annoying drawback to having invisible early recon units -- I'm not sure it's worth the tradeoff, to be honest, because the D'Tesh warriors are so utterly pathetic as attackers or defenders until you can start racking up some Death Mana -- which, given the emphasis one must place on recon units in order to amass the population necessary to research Necromancy and build a couple of Binders, means your entire economy is basically defenseless for the until mid-game.

Unless I'm missing something -- which is why I asked for advice.

 

[Sjru]

Yes, they're unbalanced, when I played with them, I got a lot of bugs, but basically, you must fight to get slaves (or go undercouncil with buy slaves approved, which is OP of course). I think to progress early you must get many slaves and make your capital grow, until you can get a small army of warriors, then you must hold until you get binding stones. After that, and by engaging in a lot of wars, you can get a OP capital with all the stuff.

 

[stupidnewbie]

(or go undercouncil with buy slaves approved, which is OP of course)

It's OP, yes, but it doesn't work with D'tesh. I think. It's not supposed to.

 

[Tsathoggua]

I dunno, given the ridiculously frustrating early game, it sounds like if you can actually make it to Undercouncil you deserve the insane population growth it allows.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm constantly losing workers/slaves that are in stacks with units quite capable of defending them. This allows otherwise hostile units to live in the same stack as my combat units. I'm usually forced to waste a turn stepping away from the stack in order to attack it again to get my workers back.

The attacking units have been everything from Cyklops to Lizardmen, so I'm not really convinced it has much to do with unit type.

Of course, I could be wrong. Thoughts? Advice?

Assuming you're playing with D'tesh? The problem is trying to defend your units with Recon troops... They are invisible.

Check this thread for the changes they'll be getting in 1.3.

That is counter-intuitive on so many levels. I hope it's not a permanent feature...

I don't believe it's counter-intuitive; Only place Invisible troops are not invisible is in cities.

Next version, recon units can toggle it on and off, and also lose it for x (1 or 3, based on leader) turns after attacking.

Oh, I understand that much. I just mean it is a pretty annoying drawback to having invisible early recon units -- I'm not sure it's worth the tradeoff, to be honest, because the D'Tesh warriors are so utterly pathetic as attackers or defenders until you can start racking up some Death Mana -- which, given the emphasis one must place on recon units in order to amass the population necessary to research Necromancy and build a couple of Binders, means your entire economy is basically defenseless for the until mid-game.

Unless I'm missing something -- which is why I asked for advice.

Again, check that link. Pretty much everything you pointed out has been addressed already.

My favorite civ to play, so they got some love.

I dunno, given the ridiculously frustrating early game, it sounds like if you can actually make it to Undercouncil you deserve the insane population growth it allows.

Nope, the D'tesh are unable to buy slaves.

Honestly, the D'tesh are quite easy to play. You just have to adapt to their little idiosyncrasies.

 

[Tsathoggua]

I started a new D'Tesh game because losing two pop in my capital in the first 100 turns was a bit crippling (I have modified the event now, as suggested in another thread, so it won't happen again).

Now that I know what to expect, it's going a bit better. I've pretty much learned how to abuse the recon line, much to the chagrin of my neighbours -- who needs Pact of the Nilhorn?

 

[Valkrionn]

I started a new D'Tesh game because losing two pop in my capital in the first 100 turns was a bit crippling (I have modified the event now, as suggested in another thread, so it won't happen again).

Now that I know what to expect, it's going a bit better. I've pretty much learned how to abuse the recon line, much to the chagrin of my neighbours -- who needs Pact of the Nilhorn?

Yeah, that event won't be crippling next version. It is actually supposed to spawn a warrior, rather than remove population.

And yeah, the recon is too easily abused atm. That's the main reason for the loss of visibility after combat, starting in 1.3.

 

[inuyashasama]

On the other hand, I got the +2 slaves event pretty early on

 

[Cyrusfan]

As Valk suggested when I asked a while back, go straight for Knowledge of the Ether and start building Adepts (you'll want the Catacombs Libralus, too). If barbarians attack you while you're getting to that point, just pull everything back into the capitol-there isn't much that can get by the defense bonus you're getting there. I didn't think it would work, but if you survive (ie no Hill Giants or declarations of war against you by one of the early rush civs) that long you're pretty much set.

 

[Tsathoggua]

As Valk suggested when I asked a while back, go straight for Knowledge of the Ether and start building Adepts (you'll want the Catacombs Libralus, too). If barbarians attack you while you're getting to that point, just pull everything back into the capitol-there isn't much that can get by the defense bonus you're getting there. I didn't think it would work, but if you survive (ie no Hill Giants or declarations of war against you by one of the early rush civs) that long you're pretty much set.

Yeah, the Catacombs are possibly overpowered given that the D'Tesh UB for Mage Guilds completely wipes out the need for population management. I can see why one of the coming changes is a cap to population.

I built up a stack of recon units including Thanatos that is grouped with a Great Commander, and so long as I'm only at war with one civ at a time I think this Prince-difficulty game will be an easy conquest win. I've just cobbled together a stack of catapults (with Axemen to defend) to tie me over until my mages can use Fireball, at which point I'll have a commander-led force of Death II / Fire II casters to escort my level 10-ish recon units. Grabbing Earth mana lets you ditch the melee line once and for all by defending with Empowered/Mobile skellies behind Wall of Stone.

Once the D'Tesh economy gets going, it seems pretty unstoppable. Slavery is an amazing civic with these guys. Since they'll be losing cottages in 1.3 I'm just dropping quarries all over the place for massive hammers and commerce after wastelands sets in (my capital works six salt tiles), and of course an extra 25% chance to generate slaves is indispensable, to the point that I wonder if the D'Tesh World Spell is kind of obsolete. Scholarship complements this beautifully, especially since the only drawback to that civic doesn't matter. I missed out on the Great Library by a few turns -- I've been tech leader by such a wide margin that I didn't think I had competition -- but even without it and running 1 GP / 5 pop, I'm generating 300 beakers / turn at 60% research across 5 cities with a total of 40 population.

 

[inuyashasama]

I'm having a similar experience in my game, except more salt XD. Outstripped all the other civs with scholarship, and I haven't bothered using the worldspell either. Have a 28 strength D'tesh out right now, but he's having a surprisingly difficult time with those dastardly death-immune golems

 

[Cyrusfan]

Golems? Heh. Don't raze too many cities, or you'll be in for a distinctly nasty surprise at AC 40.