Caravel survives 2 battleships and a destroyer, sinks escorted armour.

[Aneurism]

I was playing as the Siam in a war against the English on Warlord difficulty. In the battle (land and sea) I had destroyers, battleships, modern armour, and mechanized infantry. England had Caravels, crossbowman and longbowman. This was an archipelago map. My strategy was to smash the cities with naval bombardment and then take them quickly with tanks. All of my embarked units were escorted by multiple warships. So in the entire sea battle I encountered 1 Caravel as opposition. I range attacked it with 1 battleship and 1 destroyer. I was astounded that this only took the caravel down to half hit points! So I took my last battleship in the area and attacked it directly. This brought the Caravel down to about 10% hit points!! The next round the caravel proceeded to sink an embarked modern armour... All I can say is this is Civ1 warrior killing battleships all over again

How in the hell does it make any sense that a caravel could survive 3 attacks from modern warships? Secondly does it even make any sense that a caravel could sink a modern 50,000 ton towering steel transport? The modern transport would just run it over like so much flotsam. A caravel should not even survive 2 frigates let alone a modern navy.

Also the embarked units need to be reworked. It makes sense that an unguarded transport is completely vulnerable to warship from its own era but its a bit much to imagine a modern transport having any vulnerability to a caravel.

I think embarked units need to have a low defense points that go up with each passing era or each key naval technology. There would be just enough hit points to reasonably defend against hopelessly obsolete war ships, but still few enough that a contemporary warship would kill it like a hot knife through butter.

 

[The Great Apple]

I agree; naval combat is far too slow. Try fighting when the era's are fair! Takes about 5 turns to sink something.

What you perhaps should have done is used zones of control to prevent him from getting to your embarked armour. One either side should do the trick... though it requires outnumbering them... and you shouldn't have to resort to this against a caravel!

 

[sovarn]

This problem i very annoying not to mention the mico management needed to make sure ships dont slip past your escorts. This is why I cant be bother to make naval invasions of another continent.

I just gift units to allied city states across the ocean and let them fight for me.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I agree; naval combat is far too slow. Try fighting when the era's are fair! Takes about 5 turns to sink something.

What you perhaps should have done is used zones of control to prevent him from getting to your embarked armour. One either side should do the trick... though it requires outnumbering them... and you shouldn't have to resort to this against a caravel!

To be fair, in the early videos of the game, when people saw a destroyer sunk in one turn by one battleship and two destroyers, people (I think Arioch in particular IIRC) voiced their concern for naval bombardment being too strong and that naval warfare would end up being won by whoever got to fire on the first turn (with losses compounding per turn). Now that naval bombardment is too slow to destroy units, the complaint is that it's too weak.

Game balance is something where never is everyone satisfied.

 

[Dizzy Pilot]

Modern navy units should blow a caravel out of the water.

 

[tybris]

How in the hell does it make any sense that a caravel could survive 3 attacks from modern warships?

Uhm, have you tried hitting a small, swift sailing vessel in a wide open ocean with nothing but a 400mm gun? Just bring a carrier and nuke it ;-).

 

[lschnarch]

To be fair, in the early videos of the game, when people saw a destroyer sunk in one turn by one battleship and two destroyers, people (I think Arioch in particular IIRC) voiced their concern for naval bombardment being too strong and that naval warfare would end up being won by whoever got to fire on the first turn (with losses compounding per turn). Now that naval bombardment is too slow to destroy units, the complaint is that it's too weak.

Game balance is something where never is everyone satisfied.

I think these are different cases.
A wooden ship regardless of ancient or medieval or classical area should in no way be able to survive a modern warship's attack.
A battleship wouldn't even use ammunition, they would just run over any caravel not being out of their path quick enough.

 

[Drawmeus]

Modern navy units should blow a caravel out of the water.

This is the real issue.

Incidentally, could you show us a picture of what the area looked like such that the caravel was able to weave in and kill your embarked unit? Zones of control apply for naval units, so I'm finding it a bit hard to believe that you couldn't have used three units (of any era) to just make it impossible for that caravel ever to get to your embarked unit.

 

[Valdyr]

Also the embarked units need to be reworked. It makes sense that an unguarded transport is completely vulnerable to warship from its own era but its a bit much to imagine a modern transport having any vulnerability to a caravel.

I'm imagining a troop ship full of infantry roused from their bunks in the middle of the night by incredibly loud clunking noises. They go abovedeck and are bewildered to find a wooden ship with sails bouncing iron cannonballs off their hull. Over a period of a couple of hours, they sink it with thousands of tiny holes from small arms fire.

I feel like modern units (not just naval units) should maybe get more HP, or a significant combat boost against units that are obviously inferior technologically. No wood-bodied ship can damage or survive even a single hit from a modern vessel. It's not a matter of skill or seamanship. It's a matter of a ship being made of wood getting hit with an exploding shell the size of a truck and only being able to retaliate with black powder-propelled metal balls.

I'm not sure how big the gap should be before it becomes a total rout. Maybe 2 or 3 tech levels ahead. I held an epic defense once as Japan with hordes of samurai against French musketeers, and I'd hate to lose stuff like that. But that's a battle that might have actually happened in history. Muskets are inaccurate and awfully slow to reload. And this was in forests and a citadel instead of an open field. I just don't think a bronze age spearman should be able to do anything against mechanized infantry besides run away or get squished. Or that guys with iron swords should be able to somehow damage strafing Zero fighters. If your tech is that far behind, you're gonna lose anyway.

 

[Evilsooty]

I've had a ten-turn naval battle with a frigate (it got promoted and then healed itself) before it finally succumbed to my destroyer.

 

[Aneurism]

This is the real issue.

Incidentally, could you show us a picture of what the area looked like such that the caravel was able to weave in and kill your embarked unit? Zones of control apply for naval units, so I'm finding it a bit hard to believe that you couldn't have used three units (of any era) to just make it impossible for that caravel ever to get to your embarked unit.

I did not take a save at the time as I was in the middle of a quick war where I was beating up on an inferior Civilization. This was last night and not until today did I think of posting about the incident. The war was going pretty smooth outside of this one laughable incident. I wish I did have the presence of mind to take a save at the time.

To be honest this was only my 3rd game of Civ5 and I was not even aware of how zones of control worked in civ5. My escorting navy of 2 destroyers and 3 battleships was spread out over a large area to watch over a loose grouping of about 7 embarked tanks and mech inf. The idea was to keep them on the prowl for anything like a rogue Caravel to come along. This strategy made perfect sense until I realized that it would take at least 4 hits from modern warships to kill one caravel and I only had 3 within range with available movement points.

 

[flyingbunnys]

Here is how I deal with caravals http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzBPGfCq21s&feature=related

 

[Celevin]

Game balance is something where never is everyone satisfied.

This right here. I've heard this repeated in past games still in development, and I completely agree.

 

[Drawmeus]

I did not take a save at the time as I was in the middle of a quick war where I was beating up on an inferior Civilization. This was last night and not until today did I think of posting about the incident. The war was going pretty smooth outside of this one laughable incident. I wish I did have the presence of mind to take a save at the time.

To be honest this was only my 3rd game of Civ5 and I was not even aware of how zones of control worked in civ5. My escorting navy of 2 destroyers and 3 battleships was spread out over a large area to watch over a loose grouping of about 7 embarked tanks and mech inf. The idea was to keep them on the prowl for anything like a rogue Caravel to come along. This strategy made perfect sense until I realized that it would take at least 4 hits from modern warships to kill one caravel and I only had 3 within range with available movement points.

Right, so not that it makes any more sense that it would take 3 hits to take out a Caravel, but you shouldn't run into this issue ever again unless you get careless.

 

[Aneurism]

This right here. I've heard this repeated in past games still in development, and I completely agree.

I'm satisfied and very happy with Civ5, I had a lot of fun with my game last night. I think city states are tons of fun.

There are some issues that need to be addressed by updates and the only way for this to happen is for people in the community to point this out, by making posts such as this. I an NOT a civ5 hater.

This particular scenario... I cant see anyone making a valid argument that a caravel should be able to withstand 2 battleships and a destroyer, and move on to sink a modern transport.

I like the idea of prolonged tough navy battles, where ships have tons of HP but not in the scenario of a caravel vs 2 battleships and a destroyer

 

[Aneurism]

Right, so not that it makes any more sense that it would take 3 hits to take out a Caravel, but you shouldn't run into this issue ever again unless you get careless.

True. I have learned from my mistake, but my modern navy should not have to cower around in fear of rogue caravels, what fun is that?

 

[Aneurism]

I'm imagining a troop ship full of infantry roused from their bunks in the middle of the night by incredibly loud clunking noises. They go abovedeck and are bewildered to find a wooden ship with sails bouncing iron cannonballs off their hull. Over a period of a couple of hours, they sink it with thousands of tiny holes from small arms fire.

I feel like modern units (not just naval units) should maybe get more HP, or a significant combat boost against units that are obviously inferior technologically. No wood-bodied ship can damage or survive even a single hit from a modern vessel. It's not a matter of skill or seamanship. It's a matter of a ship being made of wood getting hit with an exploding shell the size of a truck and only being able to retaliate with black powder-propelled metal balls.

I'm not sure how big the gap should be before it becomes a total rout. Maybe 2 or 3 tech levels ahead. I held an epic defense once as Japan with hordes of samurai against French musketeers, and I'd hate to lose stuff like that. But that's a battle that might have actually happened in history. Muskets are inaccurate and awfully slow to reload. And this was in forests and a citadel instead of an open field. I just don't think a bronze age spearman should be able to do anything against mechanized infantry besides run away or get squished. Or that guys with iron swords should be able to somehow damage strafing Zero fighters. If your tech is that far behind, you're gonna lose anyway.

The imagery of this was hilarious. I had thoughts along these lines when it happened.

 

[Aneurism]

To be fair, in the early videos of the game, when people saw a destroyer sunk in one turn by one battleship and two destroyers, people (I think Arioch in particular IIRC) voiced their concern for naval bombardment being too strong and that naval warfare would end up being won by whoever got to fire on the first turn (with losses compounding per turn). Now that naval bombardment is too slow to destroy units, the complaint is that it's too weak.

Game balance is something where never is everyone satisfied.

I agree with the concept of tougher naval units with more HP, and that game balance can never please everyone. However the scenario I encountered last night was not balanced IMHO. Hopefully this will be addressed in a patch and if not I know I will patch it myself with a mod. I will continue to enjoy this game either way.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I agree with the concept of tougher naval units with more HP, and that game balance can never please everyone. However the scenario I encountered last night was not balanced IMHO. Hopefully this will be addressed in a patch and if not I know I will patch it myself with a mod. I will continue to enjoy this game either way.

When I see someone prepared to write a mod to improve the game, I look on it as a success story and can't help but smile.

 

[Brawndo]

I think naval units should be allowed to "melee". Then the Destroyer could just destroy the antiquated Caravel in one hit, instead of bombarding it for only 4-5 damage