Carthage?

[RichardMNixon]

If you could go back in time and be a Roman-what would you choose to be-Emperor- aristocracy-or slave?

That's not the question being argued here, no one wants to be a slave. As I see it, the question Xen is posing to you is:

Would you rather be a slave of:
A. Rome
B. Carthage

Simple as that. He's not arguing in favor of slavery, he's arguing against Carthaginian slavery: the Romans were nicer than the Carthaginians, theres no way around it.

 

[Ghafhi]

The reason why carthage is probably not in the game is because for some reason the civ people don't want more than two africa civs. So Egypt and mali take prescendece

 

[Capt Ajax]

The reason why carthage is probably not in the game is because for some reason the civ people don't want more than two africa civs. So Egypt and mali take prescendece

I guess the Zulus get screwed also.....Mali???

 

[RichardMNixon]

The Zulus were explicitly significant for like one century. They were fierce fighters and strategists no doubt, and I respect that. Perhaps they would have been a great empire had they existed in ancient times... but the the fact remains that the Impis were sent against British riflemen... not the most successful of empires...

I don't know anything about it myself, but there are many people here that can extoll the virtues of Mali without end, the first academies, the richest nation in the history of Earth, etc. Look it up before you cause further damage to your keyboard.

Looked it up a bit myself as well: I think Mali is actually representing Africa's greatest attributes in the medieval era: the empires of Ghana, Mali, and Songhai were all located in west africa and more influential than most people (myself included) realized. Plus they spoke Wolof, which makes anyone awesome in my book. Damay jang Wolof...

 

[Ghafhi]

The Zulus were explicitly significant for like one century. They were fierce fighters and strategists no doubt, and I respect that. Perhaps they would have been a great empire had they existed in ancient times... but the the fact remains that the Impis were sent against British riflemen... not the most successful of empires...

I don't know anything about it myself, but there are many people here that can extoll the virtues of Mali without end, the first academies, the richest nation in the history of Earth, etc. Look it up before you cause further damage to your keyboard.

Looked it up a bit myself as well: I think Mali is actually representing Africa's greatest attributes in the medieval era: the empires of Ghana, Mali, and Songhai were all located in west africa and more influential than most people (myself included) realized. Plus they spoke Wolof, which makes anyone awesome in my book. Damay jang Wolof...

Yes when looking at these west african sahelian civs there are many goods one but IMO three great ones. Songhai: largest african empire and one of the largest in the world trailing the mongols and romans, Ghana: precursor for all the west african civlization beside the nok they could be considered the olmecs or Greeks of africa (In the sense that they contributed to all the other africa empires in that region that followed them besides the Nok and Manadara.) and Mali. I think they should just be called Saharan or Sahelian nation because I don't see what makes anyone particularly better than the other.

 

[Ghafhi]

The Zulus were explicitly significant for like one century. They were fierce fighters and strategists no doubt, and I respect that. Perhaps they would have been a great empire had they existed in ancient times... but the the fact remains that the Impis were sent against British riflemen... not the most successful of empires...

I don't know anything about it myself, but there are many people here that can extoll the virtues of Mali without end, the first academies, the richest nation in the history of Earth, etc. Look it up before you cause further damage to your keyboard.

Looked it up a bit myself as well: I think Mali is actually representing Africa's greatest attributes in the medieval era: the empires of Ghana, Mali, and Songhai were all located in west africa and more influential than most people (myself included) realized. Plus they spoke Wolof, which makes anyone awesome in my book. Damay jang Wolof...

Yes when looking at these west african sahelian civs there are many goods one but IMO three great ones. Songhai: largest african empire and one of the largest in the world trailing the mongols and romans, Ghana: precursor for all the west african civlization beside the nok they could be considered the olmecs or Greeks of africa (In the sense that they contributed to all the other africa empires in that region that followed them besides the Nok and Manadara.) and Mali. I think they should just be called Saharan or Sahelian nation because I don't see what makes anyone particularly better than the other.

As for the Zulu's well conquering everyone known to you and opponents who hear your name simply give up is pretty impressive. You have to also realizse that the zulus existed hundreds of years before europeans even came to africa so I don't see how saying yeah they are a great civ but they lost to britain makes sense. It would be like someone saying Egypt was great but it got taken over by the romans persian nubians etc. Yes the Zulu were basically sneak invaded by Britain but they did also win some battles which is pretty impressive considering they didn't have guns and britain did. Not to mention killing Napolean Bonaparte.

 

[Capt Ajax]

Yes the Zulu were basically sneak invaded by Britain but they did also win some battles which is pretty impressive considering they didn't have guns and britain did. Not to mention killing Napolean Bonaparte.

True......very impressive considering the courage and pride it took those Impi to stand and fight in face of a modern, superior, British army.

Truth be told, the game could include many CIVS. Some that made it big time in the scope of world history, some that only made a loud splash, and some that had great potential, but were snubbed out to soon. I like playing games in the ancient age.....with older civs. I do not care much for the modern era of the game, and have a tendency to quit the game in the modern age. I guess this is why I argue for Carthage, Inca, and the Zulus. If I had my "druthers", I would prefer to have the game consist of ALL ANCIENT CIVS, leaving out the French, Germans, Americans, Ruskies....... But including their ancient peoples like verious American Indian tribes, or the tribes of Europe "Gauls" and "Celts".
Here is an idea.....perhaps, at the begining of the game you would have to pick an ancient CIV, then as the game develops, you have the opertunity to evolve into the CIV that historicaly springs from the ancient Civ.....for example. The player who is playing the Iriquoi survives into the modern era and becomes the Americans????

 

[Xen]

Yes the Zulu were basically sneak invaded by Britain but they did also win some battles which is pretty impressive considering they didn't have guns and britain did. Not to mention killing Napolean Bonaparte.

1)the Zulu did posses Guns

2)they killed a descendent of Napoleon while he was sleeping under a tree.

 

[Capt Ajax]

........they killed a descendent of Napoleon while he was sleeping under a tree.

How typical. He was probably full of pastries and red wine, with dreams of hairy women coursing through his ugly grape.

Just goes to show that in the corse of simply OBSERVING from afar, the French can get cought with their pants down!

I am begining to like the Zulus more and more.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

.....for example. The player who is playing the Iriquoi survives into the modern era and becomes the Americans????

Good Idea but the example would be the Angles, Saxons or Britons becoming the Americans

 

[Capt Ajax]

Good Idea but the example would be the Angles, Saxons or Britons becoming the Americans

Good point. Maybe we will see this in a future CIV title (Civilization 5?). I think it would be neat to transend from a civilization into a modern nation. Many of the ancient civs are still around in the form of nations...and yet others are represented in ethnic groups that still exist inside nations.

Hmmmmm.............I still do not believe this really helps the Zulus much

 

[RichardMNixon]

My impression was that the Zulus were just another of many small tribes until Shaka conquered and united many tribes under the name Zulu. Then his son killed him, attacked the British and the empire ended. Assuming I am right on this (not a gaurantee), a two generation empire isn't exactly civ worthy, no matter how cool they are (and they are very cool, I love the arm, chest, and head tactic used by the impi).

 

[Capt Ajax]

Then maybe Ethieopa deserves to represent the black Africans on the world stage of Civilization? I believe that the Zulus were a good selection for the basic dip**** who knows more about the movies than he does history. I mean, they do have to sell the game to the great unwashed so they have to make it reconizable..........and most everyone knows about the Zulus...right?

 

[BlueStar]

It's a wee bit more complicated then -the Zulu"s up and attacked the British-the British invaded and 2 of their three columns were defeated.The Roarkes Drift defense was part of that campaign and they for sure had some guns there. As for the Bonaparte heir-according to The Washing of the Spears-a great book on the subject-he was with the second British invasion and went out on a small patrol that ran into some trouble and he was killed. I've never heard the "sleeping under the tree" story.

The Zulu's could march for days-bare feet, little food and water-and then go into battle-pretty amazing.

 

[Xen]

As for the Bonaparte heir-according to The Washing of the Spears-a great book on the subject-he was with the second British invasion and went out on a small patrol that ran into some trouble and he was killed. I've never heard the "sleeping under the tree" story.

AFAIK, it was while on patrol that he and his patrol took a rest, and were ambushed; this was the fate of many an unwary British patrol in that war, the only difference with this one was that it was a celibrity whom was killed, and not soem grunt. (ironically, considerderign his pedigree, his death actually fueled a war fervour in the British populace to avenge his death, apperentlly)

 

[Louis XXIV]

Good Idea but the example would be the Angles, Saxons or Britons becoming the Americans

Or Germans, Scots-Irish (or just Irish, I suppose), or Dutch? Early America was made up of a significant amount of different ethnic groups, not just English.

EDIT: Gold Coast Africa, too, can't forget that.

 

[BlueStar]

Or Germans, Scots-Irish (or just Irish, I suppose), or Dutch? Early America was made up of a significant amount of different ethnic groups, not just English.

EDIT: Gold Coast Africa, too, can't forget that.

Lots of Germans-I have family from there that have been in this country sence the 1730's-they've been in the same part of the country the whole time-
the Scot's-Irish thing is to my understanding[they make up the other part of my ancestry}a bit of a misnomer-they are not really Scotch or Irish-they lived on the English side of the border with Scotland-andfought them over the years-and were pretty tough-Cromwell moved them to Northern Ireland to sit on the Irish there-and then they came to America and moved right into the mountains-eventually they joined with the Germans and moved into Kentucky-they generated a huge population boom and took over everything from the atlantic to the mississippi-much faster than the European's thought possible-and then of course-don't forget the convicts -you don't hear much about them

 

[KrikkitTwo]

My impression was that the Zulus were just another of many small tribes until Shaka conquered and united many tribes under the name Zulu. Then his son killed him, attacked the British and the empire ended. Assuming I am right on this (not a gaurantee), a two generation empire isn't exactly civ worthy, no matter how cool they are (and they are very cool, I love the arm, chest, and head tactic used by the impi).

You mean like the Greeks?

 

[Utherhimo]

Carthage were the largest threat to Roma when they were defeated that put Roma on the map call it thier golden age, if Roma lost or stalemated Carthage Roma wouldnt be as important as it is in terms of history!

 

[Sentoa]

Vienna is as German, as Carthage is Punic.
I'm for Germans(not Germany) and Phoneicians(not Carthage).

Carthage is in Tunisia... Phoenicia is in Lebanon. England and America or England and Australia are more apt comparisons.

I am wish they left the Carthaginians in... of course I'm biased being half Tunisian.