Carthage's New Unique Power

[Stacmon]

Carthage's current power, although admittedly unique, could in my opinion be replaced by something better.

The city state gained prominence through sea trade, establishing a powerful navy and growing to control the western Mediterranean. Most of the empire's significant cities were coastal and I'm hoping we could work in a Unique Power consistent to this broader history.

Here I propose a few alternatives that could be used:

1) Keep the Power of Mercenaries.

2) Power of Trade (A) +2 trade routes for coastal cities

This version of the power would grant extra trade routes to all Carthaginian coastal cities, just as the Great Lighthouse already does. This would be an effective way to represent the value of sea trade to the burgeoning empire.

3) Power of Trade (B) +2 gold from coastal tiles (or all water tiles)

This power would be similar to Mali's Power of Wealth, but instead of increasing the gold gained from every square by 1, it would increase the gold of coastal (or water squares) by 2. Like the second alternative listed above, this encourages Carthage to build more cities on the coast and make use of terrain that would look unappealing to other civs. For example, take that sliver just outside the cultural borders of a neighbour (but with access to eight or so coastal tiles). This also makes it more rewarding to establish cities on islands, such as Sardinia, Sicily or the Canaries.

Another benefit is that this power doesn't overlap as much with Carthage's unique building, which also adds a trade route.

Personally, I prefer Power of Trade (B) +2 gold from coastal (or all water) tiles.

The main reason I feel one of these two Unique Powers would be better, is that although Carthage did extensively use mercenaries, they did so because of their wealth, not because mercenaries were somehow cheaper for them compared to their neighbours. Adopting "The Power of Trade," in either of these incarnations (or a suggestion offered by someone else), would provide them with additional income which they could then use for these mercenaries. In fact, there are few other uses for gold so early in the game (before it can be traded with Currency, used on luxuries, etc.)

I'm eager to hear all of your thoughts and any alternative proposals too. Please vote!

 

[Phallus]

Interesting ideas, but I tend to avoid mercenaries in anything but emergencies regardless of how much money I have. I do like their current power and I probably wouldn't use mercenaries without it, but the 2 gold from water tiles sounds fantastic to me. The extra trade-routes power would be the most realistic, but it sounds pretty strong and I don't know whether this would influence the AI to stick to the coast.

I also like the idea of giving Carthage a wealth bonus incase it encourages a rivalry when Mali arrives (play as Mali and have one of the richest obstacles to the UHV on your doorstep).

 

[Stacmon]

Seems like a majority are for changing the UP and for the +2 gold per water tile suggestion to symbolize Carthage's sea trade. Can anyone comment on how likely a UP change is to take place?

I haven't followed the mod's development until recently, but I'm hoping that since the Warlords version is fairly new (and if Rhye feels one of these powers is a strong alternative to the current one), that such a change is possible.

 

[Phallus]

Can anyone comment on how likely a UP change is to take place?

Only Rhye can say, but it is certainly possible that the UP could still be reviewed. It's more a matter of whether the new UP is preferable from gameplay and technical points of view than whether the version is fairly recent.

 

[Stacmon]

Thanks Phallus, that's pretty much the reply I was hoping for.

 

[Watiggi]

hehe, why not give them the abilty to travel through impassable land (peaks)? If the map had the himalayas and what not, then it could be useful.

 

[Head Serf]

What does that have to do with Carthage historically?

 

[thenooblet22]

Carthage's current power, although admittedly unique, could in my opinion be replaced by something better.

The city state gained prominence through sea trade, establishing a powerful navy and growing to control the western Mediterranean. Most of the empire's significant cities were coastal and I'm hoping we could work in a Unique Power consistent to this broader history.

Here I propose a few alternatives that could be used:

1) Keep the Power of Mercenaries.

2) Power of Trade (A) +2 trade routes for coastal cities

This version of the power would grant extra trade routes to all Carthaginian coastal cities, just as the Great Lighthouse already does. This would be an effective way to represent the value of sea trade to the burgeoning empire.

3) Power of Trade (B) +2 gold from coastal tiles (or all water tiles)

This power would be similar to Mali's Power of Wealth, but instead of increasing the gold gained from every square by 1, it would increase the gold of coastal (or water squares) by 2. Like the second alternative listed above, this encourages Carthage to build more cities on the coast and make use of terrain that would look unappealing to other civs. For example, take that sliver just outside the cultural borders of a neighbour (but with access to eight or so coastal tiles). This also makes it more rewarding to establish cities on islands, such as Sardinia, Sicily or the Canaries.

Another benefit is that this power doesn't overlap as much with Carthage's unique building, which also adds a trade route.

Personally, I prefer Power of Trade (B) +2 gold from coastal (or all water) tiles.

The main reason I feel one of these two Unique Powers would be better, is that although Carthage did extensively use mercenaries, they did so because of their wealth, not because mercenaries were somehow cheaper for them compared to their neighbours. Adopting "The Power of Trade," in either of these incarnations (or a suggestion offered by someone else), would provide them with additional income which they could then use for these mercenaries. In fact, there are few other uses for gold so early in the game (before it can be traded with Currency, used on luxuries, etc.)

I'm eager to hear all of your thoughts and any alternative proposals too. Please vote!

Nooooooooooooooooo!@# If you change their current power, Rome would be impossible to defeat. Mercenaries are the backbone of the military when playing as Carthage.

 

[Watiggi]

What does that have to do with Carthage historically?

I just thought it would be interesting and would relate to what Hannibal did when attacking Rome. I haven't looked at the map for a long time, so I don't even know whether there are peaks nearby, but it could be interesting if there are. I dare say other units wouldn't be able to attack the units in peaks either giving them more of an advantage. Could be interesting...

 

[Aeon221]

hehe, why not give them the abilty to travel through impassable land (peaks)? If the map had the himalayas and what not, then it could be useful.

Clearly an avid player of this mod XD

 

[Watiggi]

No, only played it once and at that, it was east asia and never ventured into europe, so I don't know. I just thought of the idea when I think of Hannibal as something different for the Cathaginians. Would be cool if carthage could go somewhere where others couldn't is what I was suggesting.

 

[Phallus]

Mercenaries are the backbone of the military when playing as Carthage.

..because their unique power revolves around mercenaries?

 

[Stacmon]

There is also an exploit with this unique power that is fairly easy to do.

Basically, you loan out a number of mercenaries (such as Numidian Cavalry) for 20 gold per turn each. With the gold you earn from their employment, you hire your own mercenaries (these can even also be Numidian Cavalry!) for half the price, because of the UU.

Simply repeat and you end up loaning mercs out for full price, and hiring others for half that.

If for no other reason than this, I feel the power needs to be changed or at least adjusted.

 

[LuKo]

I think that UP of trade (B) is great becouse you still can have more mercenaries than any other civilization (they aren't cheaper but you have more cash). Of course you can use cash in any other way...

 

[thenooblet22]

..because their unique power revolves around mercenaries?

Uh, yea? If they don't have cheap mercanaries, they are stuck in a hopeless position of being sacked by Rome or by the hordes of Horse Archers and Camels from the south.

 

[Surtur]

I think that UP of trade (B) is great becouse you still can have more mercenaries than any other civilization (they aren't cheaper but you have more cash). Of course you can use cash in any other way...

I fear that this UP could make Carthage to a research super power like Mali and this will make the job for Rome even harder.

 

[Stacmon]

I fear that this UP could make Carthage to a research super power like Mali and this will make the job for Rome even harder.

Well though that's true to a point, it's important to recall that only water tiles would be affected. Carthage only has two decent city locations (Carthage/Rusadir) on the North African mainland, and any other city would be very marginal. Every citizen sent to work an ocean tile would be producing a fair bit of commerce (4), but would only yield 2 food and no shields. This would put them at a production disadvantage, and in my eyes, encourage them to buy mercenaries as needed.

We still haven't heard Rhye weigh in, and it's unclear what he thinks about the exploit I mentioned earlier. Since the poll has slowly been moving in the other direction (gradually more in favour of keeping the current power), it's unclear what the final verdict will be.

 

[LuKo]

I think that now Rome UHV is impossible. So better Carthage UP offsets better Rome UP

 

[Rhye]

honestly I love the current UP - it's both accurate and unique.
If it's flawed, I'll try to fix it. If it's unfixable, I'll change it. OK?

 

[Stacmon]

Thanks for the clarification. I like the UP too, my only concern was the way it pretty much forced Carthage to use Mercenaries (which are already represented to an extent through Numidian Cavalry).

I'm not sure what can be suggested regarding the potential exploit... also halving the amount of money Carthage earns by loaning out its own soldiers hardly seems like a solution (you'd pretty much be back where you started, or at least strongly discouraging Carthaginian players to loan out soldiers).

Anyone have an idea?